News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife [also army list for review]  (Read 1776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ripper777

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
i have a question? i am relletivly new playing tau an 40k. tau is my First 40k army and i have only played Black Templar,dark angles and Eldar. Eldar to me seem like an even mach up to me but fighting black Templars and dark angles seems pointless. once i get assaulted its pretty much over for me. with new 5th edition rules after i loose combat i roll a leadership test and usually always fail with the -x leadership for how many units i lost. then i roll against the other play to see if they die while fleeing witch is [I-2] + d6 vs his [I-4] + d6 which i also always loose. so then in one turn a whole team of 12 fire warriors is lost. it seem so rediculas . i know the last thing a tau player wants is to get into combat but with a Landraider crusaider coming at you with 12 inch movement and then get to assualt 12 inches is kinda had to do.  i thought the bonding knife help past leadership test but it seems it doesnt just lets the regroup next turn for with out taking one but if i get assaulted what is the point when there wiped out??? and how can i over come and assualt based group of black templars???
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 08:26:46 PM by Rummy »

Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Re: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 05:28:09 PM »
Your problem, it seems to me, is that you're expecting Firewarriors to be the be all adn end all of the Tau army. They're not. There isn't really a be all and end all for the Tau, they work together.

Got a land raider coming at your Firewarriors? Hit it with your Broadsides or Hammerheads, they just have just about the best anti-tank gun on a non-Superheavy and/or Titan classification vehicle. Don't have either? Well it'd probably be a good idea to get one or t'other, or several, depending on how many points you're playing.

Can't easily get your hands on an Hammerhed or XV88? Hook yourself up with a Sunforge-4 Suicide suit. Basically, a Crisis Suit with a Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster nad a Targetting Array. Deepstrike it right down next to (Within 6") the enemy's heavy tank, and let rip.

You should also, I think, try desperately to keep out of assualt range wherever possible. An aid to this might be a unit of kroot to get torn to pieces, uh I mean to counter-charge while the FWs Fall back.

Offline KingdomCome

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • ...Your own personal Hero...
Re: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 06:11:02 PM »
This is a very common problem with static Tau lists. It sounds like you keep them in one spot and hope your shooting will be enough. It's not. Tau rely heavily on being able to move to get out of harms way, or to get as many units as possible to shoot at a single threat and keep moving. Tau armies tend to have a sizable learning curve and are very unforgiving when mistakes are made on the battlefield. The only real answer for land raiders and such are Railguns and Fusions (as mentioned above). I'm not a fan of "suicide" units, due to the randomness of deep striking, but when they stick they hurt the opposition. As you have probably noticed, Tau don't have overpowering units. The closest thing we have are broadsides, but their usefulness ends when all heavy armor is gone. Just try different tactics and don't quit on Tau. They are a very rewarding army to play once you figure out their flaws and maximize their strengths.

Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Re: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 06:18:30 PM »
oh, and to answer your question of why to use Bonding Knives? Because it means that a squad can regroup below half remaining. The only other armies that, to my knowledge, can do what, are Marines.

Why is this important? Becasue in 5E, troops choice under 50% still count as scoring, so they can still hold and contest objectives. without the knife, they're liable to run off the table.

Offline Ripper777

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 06:55:11 PM »
well here is my 1500 point list w/ almost all the unit I own thus far. so some upgrade were added because of lack of units.

[Commander shasel and 2 shield drones ] Plasma rifle, CIB,TA,HWDC, HWMT = 130 points
(for taking out heavy and light infantry) dont know if i should get rid of the Tageting array and add a fusion blaster fo tanks

[3 xv8 crisis suits 1 is TL] missile pods, Plasma Rifle, hwmt, Bonding Kinfe = 196 points
(taking out infantry and light medium tanks)

[Hammerhead] railgun, SMS, Disruption pod, Seeker missle = 175 points
taking heavy tanks and infantry)

[2 broadsides 1 is LD] TL Railgun, SMS, ASS, bonding knife, target lock = 175 points
(mostly for tanks or heavy infantry)

[6 x25 stealth suits w/ LD] Bonding knife,TA = 250 points
(death squad i am deap striking with them)

[4 pathfinders/devilfish] = 143 points

[devilfish] bustcannon,gun drones, Disruptions pod, seeker missle

[12 Kroot] = 84 points
(suicide killers)

[2x 10 fire warriors and 2 marker drones w/ leader] bonding knife , HWDC = 350
(marker drones to help BS. nothing is better then 2 and up hits. and helps other group and seeker misses.

 


Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Re: help with getting assulted and y use bonding knife
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 07:39:03 PM »
Okay here goes.
Commander Shas'El and 2 shield drones
-Plasma rifle-
-CIB
-TA,
-HWDC
-HWMT = 130 points
(for taking out heavy and light infantry) don't know if i should get rid of the Tageting array and add a fusion blaster for tanks.
The Ionknife(known to some as Sentinel) is an excellent commander setup, as the CIB benefits from the commanders high BS. But this guy should proably be sent after TEQs (Terminator equivalents. Anything with a +2 Armour save.) Also, I'd ditch the Shield Drones and save yourself 30 points, but that's a matter or taste, personally.

3 XV8 crisis Suits, 1 is TL]
-Missile pod
-Plasma Rifle
-HWMT
-Bonding Kinfe
196 points
(Taking out infantry and light-medium tanks)
These suits are actually illegal. You have to fill the third hardpoint on a suit.  Also you've taken The nearly industry standard Fireknife Configuration. it's a generalist, it excells at nothing.  now, because you've expressed issues with Transports, I'm going to suggest a team of Deathrain-4 XV8s: Twin Linked Missile pods with Targetting array. This essentially means that you've got Rerolling to hit, BS4 missile shots. Some call it overkill, some call it reliability. I like them, personally. A single suit costs 53, while a single Fireknife costs about 62 points. So you're saving another thirty points by taking a more efficient elites choice.

Hammerhead
-railgun
-SMS
-Disruption pod
-Seeker Missile
175 points
taking heavy tanks and infantry)
I can't see any problems with this guy, a good, rather standard setup. Although, I have issues with the seeker missile, which I'll address with your pathfinders.

[2 broadsides 1 is LD]
-TL Railgun
-SMS
-ASS
-Bonding knife
-Target lock
175 points
(mostly for tanks or heavy infantry)
Drop the target lock, team leader and knife, and field them as two separate units. Saves you 15 points.

[6 XV25 stealth suits w/ LD] Bonding knife,TA = 250 points
(Death squad which I am Deep Striking)
Drop the Targeting Array, with 18 S5 AP5 shots, you just don't need it. Also, it would require the other five members of the Stealth team to take support systems, and the Targeting Array can't be taken Hard-Wired.

4x Pathfinders With Devilfish
Devilfish:
-Burst Cannon
-Gun drones
-Disruptions pod
-Seeker missle
143 points
Okay, with Pathfinders BS being what it is, you're gonna be hitting an average of two Markerlight hits per turn. What with two seekers and  Fire warriors to support, frankly I don't think you have another Pathfinders. Remeber, if you've followed my suggestions(You don't, by any means have to, they're just suggestions), you have some 75~ points you could buy a few more pathfinders with. More points that that if you decided to drop the seeker.

[12 Kroot] = 84 points
(suicide killers)
Keep in mind, these guys aren't bad off a charge, and that they have the infiltrate special rule. This means that they can use the Outflank rule, which means that if it's placed in reserve, it can come in off the side of the table whenever you want, and hopefully capture or contest an objective lategame.

[2x 10 fire warriors and 2 marker drones w/ Shas'Ui] bonding knife , HWDC = 350
(marker drones to help BS. nothing is better then 2 and up hits. and helps other group and seeker misses.
Okay, Markerlights on Firewarriors is a bad idea. I actually considered it myself, but I decided against it. Why? Because if the Firewarriors move at all, the drones can't fire their lights. What I'd suggest is that you move the Markerdrones to either your commander or XV8 Team, or maybe even your Stealthsuit team, where their 'Type:as owner' Will grant them Relentless, and thus the ability to fire on the move.  If you really want markerlights in your Firewarrior teams, don't go drones, give the Shas'Ui a markerlight for 5 points less.

It also seems to me, that you're light of Firewarriors for 1500 points. I'd probably consider buy another squad.

Your total list came in at 1503 points.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 07:45:47 PM by Sayt »

Offline Ripper777

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Quote
Okay, Markerlights on Firewarriors is a bad idea. I actually considered it myself, but I decided against it. Why? Because if the Fire warriors move at all, the drones can't fire their lights. What I'd suggest is that you move the Marker drones to either your commander or XV8 Team, or maybe even your Stealthsuit team, where their 'Type:as owner' Will grant them Relentless, and thus the ability to fire on the move.  If you really want markerlights in your Firewarrior teams, don't go drones, give the Shas'Ui a markerlight for 5 points less.

excuse me if im wrong but dont drones have relentless.

Quote
Drop the target lock, team leader and knife, and field them as two separate units. Saves you 15 points.

yes i see your point with the broadsides it is a waist to have them together making a team leader and a bounding knife i was just trying to get points as i still need more units.
Quote
Drop the Targeting Array, with 18 S5 AP5 shots, you just don't need it. Also, it would require the other five members of the Stealth team to take support systems, and the Targeting Array can't be taken Hard-Wired.

As for the stealth suits i do have them all with support systems  they all use targeting arrays. and no 18 bullets is not enough to stop black templars i might if lucky kill 2-4 with 4+ hit 3+wounds and their 3+ armor save but 3+ hit might get 4-6 that probably half the squad. Then they zeal towards me and i cant assault far enough away with jump packs so they cant assault me next turn. If i get a marker light on them or to i might get 2+ to hit witch might wipe out the squad. and if not use another to -1 leadership so they fall back instead of zealing towards me.

Quote
These suits are actually illegal. You have to fill the third hardpoint on a suit.  Also you've taken The nearly industry standard Fireknife Configuration. it's a generalist, it excells at nothing.  now, because you've expressed issues with Transports, I'm going to suggest a team of Deathrain-4 XV8s: Twin Linked Missile pods with Targetting array. This essentially means that you've got Rerolling to hit, BS4 missile shots. Some call it overkill, some call it reliability. I like them, personally. A single suit costs 53, while a single Fireknife costs about 62 points. So you're saving another thirty points by taking a more efficient elites choice.


Sry i didnt mean HWTA just TA. I will have to try these Deathrain xv8 ans see how well it goes.

Thank you so much for your input im really new at playing warhammer 40k, im only about a month in and im just getting in the 1500 point rang now . right now i only own.

24 fire warriors
12 kroot
6 pathfinder
3 xv8 suits
1 commander xv8 suit
6 stealth suits
2 braodsides
1 hammerhead
1 devilfish


Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Quote
Excuse me if i'm wrong but don't drones have relentless.

I hit that road bump too. but then page 31 of the Codex: Tau Empire was pointed out to me and I read it a few times very carefully, and wilted a bit.

Gundrones are: "As owner, or Jump infantry (jet pack) if independant". All the other drones are 'Unit type:as owner". This means that a markerdrone attached to Fire Warriors is infantry, where as a Markerdrone attached to a Crisis suit or a Stealthsuit team is Jump Infantry (jet pack) and thus has relentless.

Quote
As for the stealth suits i do have them all with support systems  they all use targeting arrays. and no 18 bullets is not enough to stop Black Templars, I might if lucky kill 2-4 with 4+ hit 3+wounds and their 3+ armor save but 3+ hit might get 4-6 that probably half the squad. Then they zeal towards me and i cant assault far enough away with jump packs so they cant assault me next turn. If i get a marker light on them or to i might get 2+ to hit witch might wipe out the squad. and if not use another to -1 leadership so they fall back instead of zealing towards me.

Just remember, that the Burst cannons on a Stealthsuit have an effective range of 24". Move 6" closer in the movement phase, shoot, then jet pack back 6" in the assault phase.

Can a Black Templars squad cover 24" in total over a whole turn with assaulting?

Offline Azonalanthious

  • Biker Nob | KoN Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 945
  • Country: 00
  • When in doubt, use more explosives.
As for the stealth suits i do have them all with support systems  they all use targeting arrays. and no 18 bullets is not enough to stop black templars i might if lucky kill 2-4 with 4+ hit 3+wounds and their 3+ armor save but 3+ hit might get 4-6 that probably half the squad. Then they zeal towards me and i cant assault far enough away with jump packs so they cant assault me next turn. If i get a marker light on them or to i might get 2+ to hit witch might wipe out the squad. and if not use another to -1 leadership so they fall back instead of zealing towards me.

You know, that might explain part of your trouble all by itself - you are compairing them one on one.  Tau are a teamwork army - they have no unit which is really great completely unsupported.  Generally speaking, you want to concentrate all your army's firepower until you destroy one squad, then move on to the next, then the next.  Also, a stealth suit's burst cannon isn't the best unit for picking off 3+ save units - you can mathhammer then that way, but there are better options.

Finally - spending 10 points for a stealth targetting array simply isn't an efficient use of points to increase your firepower.  Look at it this way - a x25 with a TA will get an extra .5 hits per turn for 10 points.  For the same 10 points, you could get another Fire Warrior... who also gets an extra .5 hits per turn at half-again the range, and also adds another wound/warm body to soak up hits and has rapid fire.  Also, you are spending 60 points to increase the squad's BS by 1 - you can spend 24 points on 2 pathfinders instead to get basicly the same benefit, while once again adding more wounds/warm bodies and gaining the ability to shift the bonus to another unit that might need it more.

Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
Lets Mathammer it shall we?

6 Stealthsuits at BS3 Costs 180 points and spit out 18 S5 AP5. it's BS3 means that it hits an opponent on a +4. Which means that of the 18 shots, nine hit. Of the nine that hit, each wounds on a +3, so 6 wound. In kicks the Space Marine's infamous +3 save, and 2 wounds are saved, so a total of 4  wounds are inflicted.  180 divided by 4 is 30, so in total, one is paying 30 points a wound.

Now lets try the same at BS4.  A unit of 6 Stealthsuits with Targeting arrays costs 240. BS4 means a hit on a +3, so 12 shots hit. Wounds on a +3, so 8 wounds, in kicks the armour save. Three wounds are saved, so five wounds hit.  240 divided by 5 is 48, so one pays 48 points per wound.

So, as the maths shows,  Targeting arrays are simply not an excellent choice for Stealthsuits, yes they give one more wound, but you're not making that wound as efficiently.

Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 675
  • God from a machine.
That's... Not quite right, Sayt. SM with a 3+ save don't save 2 out of 6 wounds, they save 4. Also, 180/4 is not 30, it's 45, but again that's wrong. Let's do the maths again, with the real numbers this time.
@BS3: 9 hits, 6 wounds, 2 kills. 180/2=90 points per kill.
@BS4: 12 hits, 8 wounds, 2.6666 kills. That's 90 points per kill.
Point for point, TAs on a Stealth Suit are exactly as killy as a Stealth Suit. The problem is that the extra suits would be more bodies on the field, and as such much, much more overall useful. TAs drop your survivability and CC potential, so you're always better off with numbers over them.

Offline Sayt

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
  • Country: 00
  • The Devil you think you know.
D'oh >.<

Offline loko shas-o

  • Newest
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
i'm quite new to warhammer (only played 3 matches only won 1), i didn't fret too much about assaulting because my guys actually did well, too well maybe, in one match 6 firewarriors took out three space marine bikers in two assault phases.

what i don't know is all these suit types and more advanced tactics.

my army is still in development however i have the units

37 fire warriors
6 pathfinders - 2 w/rail rifles
6 vespid
15 gun drones (also have a meadly of others like markers & shields)
1 sniper drone team
8 stealth suits
1 b/side
9 crisis suits
2 commanders
2 pirahnas
1 d/fish
1 skyray
3 hammerheads

my heavy skimmers can be configured any way because i have additional patrs for all configuartions

i also have a custom squad of cadian shock troops w/out insignia and customised weapons to represent gue'vesa, i also have some 'nid termagaunts because i was gonna augment my army with 'nids to give an interception suicide squad slash close combat group to allow max mobilisation of my tau, i know this is not technically allowed unless in an apocalypse game, but that is my aim so i'm just thinkin ahead.

Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 675
  • God from a machine.

what i don't know is all these suit types and more advanced tactics.
Suit types are in this thread.
The thread has some (very old and occasionally innacurate) analyses of each configuration and what it's good at.
This page is the closest thing you'll find to a list of advanced concepts and tactics, though pretty much all of it was written in 3rd or 4th edition, so we really need to go through and redo some of the less valid stuff.
If you ever have a problem understanding a term or don't know what we're talking about with something, go right ahead and ask; we're always happy to help.
Finally, did you have any particular reason for listing your models? I'd also avoid adding a bunch of Nids to your Tau army... Nobody will be happy with it, even if they are insane enough to allow it.

 


Powered by EzPortal