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Author Topic: Improving the Astra Militarum  (Read 38661 times)

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Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2015, 10:28:38 PM »
It's so minor it's probably not worth changing. :P

And we decided on including the Hades drill into the main list yes?  What's the best way to do it?  And they're like a Tyranid Trygon yes?  Creating a point on the board units can emerge from yes?

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2015, 10:39:22 PM »
Do you want the drill to act as a fortification upon emerging? Give it some guns to clear the area at least.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2015, 11:40:27 PM »
It's been a long, Lllloooonnnggg time since I looked into the Hades Drill, but it basically has some kind of Melta-Tunneling device. So it used to hurt things when it emerged, and then it could ram stuff with a 20' round melta-face. Something silly like that.

So once it was on the surface, I think it had similar to Chimera Armour, except it would ram stuff and cause untold maiming and terror as a sun mounted to the front of a vehicle started trying to introduce you to molecular fusion. Or maybe it's fission, I can't ever remember.

Make sure it has at least a 10-Man capacity!

I don't know, I've never liked units that made a permanent opening in the board. Something best saved for DE Webway portals and such. Besides, if I recall correctly, the burrowed hole should be roughly a few Calvin short of molten, a bad place to have infantry emerge from. Not that reality should have anything to do with anything, but it would make me feel bad to have my boys come out looking like beef jerky.

I can't recall the exact rules, but some kind of Melta-Blast cannon on the front with a short range would make a reasonable substitution to ramming stuff. :)

Most transports can be taken as a Fast Attack Slot, but I think such a vehicle would be more "Elite" territory. I think the Kriegers use specialist Engineers in them, which feels like they should be Elite transports too?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:42:46 PM by Spectral Arbor »

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2015, 12:18:15 AM »
Doesn't need to be a permanent opening. Merely that the vehicle face stays put after arrival. Give it some Chimera lasguns at the very least to fire upon the turns after arrival. I wouldn't have it driving around doing its thing as that's kind of silly really.

Have it arrive, deploy its contents, then stick around as a fortification/terrain feature with a little firepower. A bit of deviation upon arrival point as you don't want to have it be a cruise missile of IG deployment.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 12:22:14 AM by The GrimSqueaker »
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2015, 01:39:25 PM »
Look what I dug up. *snicker*

I think we found what we're looking for: Termites, or maybe Moles.  I like Termites better for the name.  They can supposedly carry two squads (I'd be more comfortable with 12 models) and come in squadrons.  So that can be three vehicles as a single FOC.  I am going to go out on a limb here, and say that they should be a FA choice, replacing rough riders.  Yes, a Fast Attack choice that can't move once deployed! :P  At least them it won't be competing with Elite choices because let's face it, you want to be stuffing Ogyrns into these things.

I think it should have Armor 12 all around, and it might possibly deserve Ceramite Plating (maybe as an upgrade?) because of the extreme conditions it might be working under.

The best thing about this though, is it'll be more Epic golden age stuff brought back to life, just like Knights and Harlequins. :)

I think that they shouldn't be effected by a Navy Officers Coordinate Reserves rule (they aren't being airdropped).  And big questions; what sort of weapons (if any) should they have?  Should they be able to Mawloc the enemy (on arrival?).  And should they be Assault Vehicles?

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2015, 04:00:01 PM »
They could be another Dedicated Transport, that you can purchase by itself as an "FOC" slot to be determined. I'm still digging the idea of Elite instead of Fast Attack. It's not a Valkyrie.

I was pretty sure the Hades used to have a Large Blast upon arrival, and that models that survived had to be moved by a minimum distance to get out of the way of the drill. Something like that would work if you had a Melta-Cutter on the front, but I don't know about a drill. Just seems like you'd get thrown out of the way. A big-ole Melta-Grinder-Combo coming up from below would, at the very least, lead me to believe that the very mouth of Hell was opening beneath me.

I think a single, Large Blast Melta Hit upon arrival would be reasonable, with a 12" small blast firing out of the front in subsequent turns? It wouldn't make sense, to me, to have additional weapons on the sides because they'd be torn off while tunneling. If you go with the Fortification idea, something I also like btw, then it could have weapons pop out, but you'd pretty much wind up with the drill facing the sky, which wouldn't allow it to keep firing as a weapon. Not a bad thing, but it would probably be a one for the other situation.

If you like the Termite / Mole idea, they look functionally identical to subterranean Drop Pods. They burrow up, blow the hatch, and everybody gets out of the pool. Again, like Drop Pods, the relatively slow emergence would probably prevent their use as an Assault Vehicle. Ceramite plating is mostly used on craft that endure orbital entry, and I don't think that would be the ideal scenario for anyone aboard.

"Out you go boys, point the drill at the ground!" "Umm, Sir, We don't possess flight control, and I'm pretttty sure this isn't an orbital landing craft..."

But man would you ever deserve to be a D-Class hit on whatever you landed on.

If you give it weapons, it's pretty much a deep striking Chimera. If you don't, it's basically a Drop Pod that can maybe / maybe not move upon arrival. I honestly think it would be fun to turn it into a battering ram for vehicles / MC, allowing it to make a special tank shock rule kind of like the old Ork Deff Rollas, except with a big scary melta-shooting siege drill on the front... but that's just me. Death or Glory attempts at -2 ld, something like that. ;)



Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2015, 10:20:34 PM »
I dug up my old Siege Of Vraks book to check out the Hades Drill.  I got an idea of how to have it enter the board:

Subterranean Assault:
A Termite always begins the game in Reserve and will enter the table via Deep Strike.  When it arrives from Reserve, the Termite will always enter the table via Deep Strike, but with the following adjustments.

First, place the 5'' blast marker anywhere on the table where you want the Termite to emerge.  Then roll for scatter.  On a Hit it emerges on target.  On an arrow it deviates 2D6'' in that direction.

If there are no enemy models under the blast marker then place the Termite centered on the point it emerges from.  Otherwise all units except Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures beneath the blast marker take a number of Strength 10, AP:2 hits with the Ignores Cover and Armorbane special rules equal to the number of models that unit has underneath the blast marker.  If the blast marker is on a multi-level ruin, only models on the lowest level of the ruin count as being under the blast marker.  For Wound allocation purposes, assume the attack is coming from the center of the blast marker.  Hits against vehicles are resolved against their side armor.

If, after removing casualties, it is now possible to place the Termite on the table on the spot where the blast marker landed, then do so, even if this is within 1'' of another model (but not if it would be in case contact with, or occupying the same space as, another model).  If it is not possible to place the Termite, replace the large blast marker on the spot and resolve another round of damage as detailed above.  If, after removing casualties for a second time, it is still not possible to place the Termite, roll on the Deep Strike Mishap Table.


I hope that's a suitable way to get it to arrive.  Following on from these (although I haven't figured out how to write these out yet):

Once deployed the Termite cannot move under any circumstances.  If the termite ends up deploying off table for whatever reason (deep strike mishap for example) then it counts as destroyed but the unit embarked within do not, and may enter later as normal.  And of course it is unaffected by Navy Officers.

I don't think it should be an Assault Vehicle now, but I do think that in the spirit of the Hades drill (and the Trygon), the squad inside shouldn't disembark until the turn after it deploys (to let the dust settle so to speak).

About weapons...what if it was covered in frag or shrapnel launchers all over it so that it can shoot at nearby enemy units like a Deathwind Missile Pod?  Say, 12'', Strength:4 AP:6 Large Blast with Shred?

And should it be able to reduce it's scatter to avoid impassible terrain like a drop pod?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 11:23:11 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2015, 11:05:03 PM »
Part of me wants to say that's OP. Part of me wants to pretend EJB and WG with D guns aren't going to utterly destroy any semblance of fair play.

So I say go for it. At least your target might not be hit by the tunneler. Better odds than what I've been reading about. :)

If it hits impassable terrain, it would make sense to be put into Ongoing Reserves instead? "Whoa Boys! Rock's too hard here, back up and try again!"

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2015, 07:29:56 AM »
That is very similar to the nids monstrous creature whose name eludes me atm as I'm still half asleep.

I'm fine with the rules, but I think the strength and ap is a little op. Perhaps a str 8 ap 3 or even 2 blast. Basically it's a large blast melta :)
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2015, 09:30:04 AM »
Part of me wants to say that's OP. Part of me wants to pretend EJB and WG with D guns aren't going to utterly destroy any semblance of fair play.

So I say go for it. At least your target might not be hit by the tunneler. Better odds than what I've been reading about. :)

If it hits impassable terrain, it would make sense to be put into Ongoing Reserves instead? "Whoa Boys! Rock's too hard here, back up and try again!"

That's not a bad idea actually.  Say that if it can't get through, they just back up and try again.  I'll go with that if people think it's OK.

That is very similar to the nids monstrous creature whose name eludes me atm as I'm still half asleep.

I'm fine with the rules, but I think the strength and ap is a little op. Perhaps a str 8 ap 3 or even 2 blast. Basically it's a large blast melta :)


Are you suggesting that I just copied the rules for the Mawloc?!! :o  Because...you'd be right.  ;D

I could have been more original, but I do like consistency.  They are doing pretty much the same thing so it makes sense to give them similar rules.  At least the Mawloc can pop up wherever it wants, unlike this thing.

I guess I could tone down the drill blast...say, Strength:8 AP:2?  Would Melta or Armorbane be better?  Ignores cover is a given.

Oh hey, should the Termite (is that name OK?) have the Move Through Cover rule, so that there's no confusion over Difficult and Dangerous terrain? 

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2015, 10:45:18 AM »
I'd suggest Armourbane, as Melta requires the distance to the model be measured, and since there's no model to measure yet... Rules quibble would be avoided.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2015, 11:03:43 AM »
OK, Armorbane it is!

Now, what sort of points should we be charging for this thing?

What about the other ideas (Move Through Cover, the Frag Launchers etc?)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:06:26 AM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Gunner_Sabot_Tank

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2015, 12:05:34 PM »
I like the idea of this thing being covered in shrapnel charges that blow upon arrival, but if you're using a large melts blast already, I'm not sure how much it'll do. Maybe a small melts blast at the hole it punches up through then say a 6" nova type shooting attack for the charges if that's not too clunky? Or call them Frag Assault Launchers or whatever it is that the LR Crusader and Redeemer have. And something designed to chew its way through solid earth should absolutely have Move Through Cover. As far as DSing into Difficult or Impassable Terrain, perhaps give it the same terrain avoidance that drop pods and Mycetic Spores have. Punching up in ruins, this thing should hit more than just the lowest level. Figure however long the vehicle is, most of that length is gonna be up out of the hole before it drops to the ground. Idk if this edition has a mechanic for destroying ruins, but let's face it, it would absolutely do so.
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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2015, 12:49:30 PM »
I like the idea of this thing being covered in shrapnel charges that blow upon arrival, but if you're using a large melts blast already, I'm not sure how much it'll do. Maybe a small melts blast at the hole it punches up through then say a 6" nova type shooting attack for the charges if that's not too clunky? Or call them Frag Assault Launchers or whatever it is that the LR Crusader and Redeemer have. And something designed to chew its way through solid earth should absolutely have Move Through Cover. As far as DSing into Difficult or Impassable Terrain, perhaps give it the same terrain avoidance that drop pods and Mycetic Spores have. Punching up in ruins, this thing should hit more than just the lowest level. Figure however long the vehicle is, most of that length is gonna be up out of the hole before it drops to the ground. Idk if this edition has a mechanic for destroying ruins, but let's face it, it would absolutely do so.

I'm starting to think that the same terrain avoidance system that Drop Pods and Spores have is the best idea.  I would assume that this machine would have some seriously powerful scanners in it to detect hazards up ahead. 

I'm not sure how big this thing would be to be honest.  It'll probably be very long...I gotta make a model somewhere down the line.  Actually there's an idea; who wants to have a Terminte building contest?  :D

Actually, if this thing is essentially firing melta blasts up into the air, should everyone in the ruins under it be hit, not just the lowest level models?  Maybe when it's done, the ruin should be removed?

Also, if does fall over onto it's side when it's done, then it should fall in the direction of the little arrow.  Even on a Hit.

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2015, 01:33:10 PM »

I'm not sure how big this thing would be to be honest.  It'll probably be very long...I gotta make a model somewhere down the line.  Actually there's an idea; who wants to have a Terminte building contest?  :D


Also, if does fall over onto it's side when it's done, then it should fall in the direction of the little arrow.  Even on a Hit.

In terms of making the model, I'd suggest the body of it behind the drill should be at least the length of a toilet paper roll core and probably half again as wide as one, maybe twice as wide. As for falling over, using the arrow for direction sounds good. Or you could place hatches on the body just aft of the drill and say that only enough of the body clears the hole for the hatches to open and it remains upright sticking out. Actually, that's probably more realistic if this is something the Guard would use en masse. Don't want these suckers falling over on your own guys jumping out of other ones.
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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2015, 02:11:29 PM »
Or you could place hatches on the body just aft of the drill and say that only enough of the body clears the hole for the hatches to open and it remains upright sticking out. Actually, that's probably more realistic if this is something the Guard would use en masse. Don't want these suckers falling over on your own guys jumping out of other ones.

That is actually a good point.  It's certainly more stable for sure.  And it would keep things simple for entering ruins (lowest floor models only).  Then again, it should probably destroy ruins...

And seriously, how do we fit them into the list?  They could be DTs I supposed.  I would worry about there being too many in the army though.  Spectral suggests making them Elites but I'm not sure because that puts them into competition with Ogyrns and Scions, two units I for one would consider putting into these things.  I said Fast Attack, but that's probably not a good idea.  :P

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2015, 06:08:34 PM »
I'd say make them DTs, but only available to certain units.
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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2015, 06:08:42 PM »
I'd say make em dedicated transport for a few elite unites, and be on their own as a fast attack.

Also, once it has emerged, is it stuck or able to move?  Resubmerge to come up again latter? 

Transport size of what?  10,12,15? I'd say make it at least 12

Also, once emerged, what kind of weapons does it have?  Or is it just a delivery platform?

I'd say make it a 13 all round armor immobile transport. Transport  size of 12. It has 4 exit points, one on each side. Make it able to Resubmerge on its next turn. Units inside may not disembark the turn it arrives, but when they do it counts as an assault vehicle and they have shrapnel charges that blow to negate cover. This all combined with its str 8 ap 2, armorbane  large blast for coming up under ppl, and 3 hull points, I'd say make it 100-115 pls.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2015, 07:44:44 PM »
I'd say make em dedicated transport for a few elite unites, and be on their own as a fast attack.

Ah, now that's exactly what I was thinking too!

There could be a new doctrine, Combat Engineers (although I wouldn't mind a better name) that means that the unit takes a Termite as a DT and must begin the game embarked upon it.  For Vets and Special Weapon Squads?

I'm happier to have them just be taken as a FA choice in squadrons of up to three.  We could say that they belong to separate units (like the way Valkyries and Tanks are).  I know that they aren't exactly fast, but they do get the troops in to where they need to be...kind of like FA.

Also, once it has emerged, is it stuck or able to move?  Resubmerge to come up again latter? 

We have it written that it stays put, like a drop pod.

Transport size of what?  10,12,15? I'd say make it at least 12

Also, once emerged, what kind of weapons does it have?  Or is it just a delivery platform?

I'd say make it a 13 all round armor immobile transport. Transport  size of 12. It has 4 exit points, one on each side. Make it able to Resubmerge on its next turn. Units inside may not disembark the turn it arrives, but when they do it counts as an assault vehicle and they have shrapnel charges that blow to negate cover. This all combined with its str 8 ap 2, armorbane  large blast for coming up under ppl, and 3 hull points, I'd say make it 100-115 pls.

That's pretty much what we came up with yes.  Armor 12 all over (could maybe be 13 but I feel that 12 is a good medium), three Hull Points and a transport capacity of 12.  4 exit points (1 on each side), and the Frag Launchers are both a shooting attack (12'', strength 4, ap 6, large blast, shred) and defensive grenades for the Terminte.  We could have made them like a Land Raiders frag launchers but since most IG units already carry frags it would be redundant.

OR...

It could be a strength 4, AP 6 flame template weapon with the shred rule.  With a clause saying that it can make an overwatch attack?

About 100pts sounds good so far.

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2015, 10:58:36 AM »
If you compare that to a Drop Pod with Deathwind Launchers... a very reasonable comparison... you're 50 points too high.

Plus, you're transporting IG, not Marines. :)

 


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