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Offline Irisado

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
The wraithknight is so easy to kill.  All you need is: a unit of cents Ina drop pod. Maybe some skitari Ina pod. How about tau long range d weapons? Or simple volume of dice..

Committing two units (the Drop Pod plus its contents) just to destroy a Wraithknight might well be a decisive factor if you're relying solely on the Wraithknight to win the game for you.  Otherwise, try turning it to your advantage.  Position it in such a way that the squad and Drop Pod are likely to be wiped out by return fire from your force, or deploy the Wraithknight, so that it's difficult for the Drop Pod to land in an ideal spot.  There are counter measures you can take I'm sure.

Volume of dice will destroy most targets.  In fact, if an opponent really wants to take out something big and durable, they will commit mass fire power to doing so.  That, however, is something you can use to your advantage.  Have you considered that if the Wraithknight is absorbing that many shots, other units in your army are getting a much easier ride and will be able to win the game for you?

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My big issue is that 90% of eldar are weak fragile dudes who die very easy.

Let's not get carried away here.  All armies must have drawbacks.  In the case of the Eldar it has always been their toughness.  They have mobility, powerful weaponry, a variety of special abilities, and offensive fire power which makes them very dangerous.  If they were durable as well, it would be an incredibly unbalanced army.

It's also worth noting that, if you really want to play durable Eldar, you can.  It involves using a high number of Wraith units of all types with optional vehicles.

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Every tourney is saying 1 WK but its just hate at eldar.

You've attended every single tournament in the UK?
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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 05:00:42 PM »
I really wish i knew what stats you guys were using in this fantasy codex.
And I would love to know where you are getting the stats in a fantasy codex that shows a single unit of Centurions are able to drop a Wraithknight when coming out of a drop pod.  The only time it is mathematically possible is if the Eldar player does not have his Wraithknight touching a piece of area terrain.  Remember, you can only fit 3 Centurions in a Drop Pod.  15 Grav cannon shots is only going to net you around 5.8 wounds off the Wraithknight.  And that is really only if the Eldar player is playing poorly, because even bad players can not instantly win with an overpowered unit.  Put his toe in ruins and you are now requiring at least 31 Grav Cannon shots to kill the Wraithknight, which is more than two units of Centurions in Drop Pods.  Even go so far as to give the Wraithknight Fortune and you have further increased the number of Grav-Cannon shots to 61 to kill it, or 12 Centurions.

(I specified the Grav Cannon because of the Grav-Amp)
Jetbikes have a large footprint and their assault move is on average 7 inches. Not alot of maps have LOS blocking terrain and even if you get some. S6 os great if you are shooting MEQ. Try shooting TEQ and tell me how it goes. The bikes themselves are MEQ and very easy to kill. As soon as they jink their shooting is gone. low leadership. They are by no means an instant win unit.
6 Jetbikes with Scatter lasers can put out 24 shots, with an effective range of 4' at a high strength for 165pts.  Not only does that unit have good offensive capabilities, but it also has ridiculous speed that can, quite literally, move them across the board in an instant.  Do you know what marine players get for 165pts?  10 Tactical Marines on foot with a Grav gun and a Heavy Bolter, or 6 bikes with 2 grav-guns.

The wraithknight is so easy to kill.. All you need is: a unit of cents Ina drop pod. Maybe some skitari Ina pod. How about tau long range d weapons? Or simple volume of dice.. Its not like he is armour 13 with a 3+ invul..

My big issue is that 90% of eldar are weak fragile dudes who die very easy. You can say well, use range but we don't really have the best gunline around.. So we got the WK, the one model we have that can soak up some fire and we cant even take more than 1. Yet you can take 5 knights or spam 6 helldrakes, 3 riptides etc. Every tourney is saying 1 WK but its just hate at eldar.
You are aware that in 1850 you can fit 5 Wraithknights and a Windrider host into a Craftworld Warhost, right?

You are going to be hard pressed to find anyone agreeing with you who doesn't play Eldar.  And even then, there are those that don't agree with you.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 05:20:46 PM »
Jetbikes have a large footprint and their assault move is on average 7 inches. Not alot of maps have LOS blocking terrain and even if you get some. S6 os great if you are shooting MEQ. Try shooting TEQ and tell me how it goes. The bikes themselves are MEQ and very easy to kill. As soon as they jink their shooting is gone. low leadership. They are by no means an instant win unit.

Jet Bikes fit on a roughly Terminator sized base, using the current stands. I can hide 5 Terminators inside a 5"x5" ruin. Or a dense forest, or a medium sized hill. If you play with minimalist terrain, that's the meta you play in, not the fault of the Bikes. Plus, at long range, you're only able to be retaliated against by "Big Guns". 43" range guns to retaliate? Exactly how much is this happening? You're certainly out of range of bolters, gauss, and even Tau rifles. And like all Eldar units, they're specialized. They're not good at killing TEQ. That's what D-Scythes, Fire Dragons... Bladestorm... uh... Other D-Class Weapons... Spider-guns... basically every other pine-cone-inserting gun you have at your disposal is good at killing. Wah! I have one target that my super-balls-out amazing unit isn't good at killing, so obviously it isn't the most disgustingly broken troop choice in all of 40k. :P

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The wraithknight is so easy to kill.. All you need is: a unit of cents Ina drop pod. Maybe some skitari Ina pod. How about tau long range d weapons? Or simple volume of dice.. Its not like he is armour 13 with a 3+ invul..

There is one unit that annihilates a WK. One. Singular. Unique. Hard counter. What's a WK good at killing? Um, Everything? Is there a target the WK isn't good at killing? You spend more points on a Drop-Grav-Cent squad than you do on the WK. That DGC squad typically inflicts 8 or 9 wounds on the WK. Which means that, typically, if you're in 4+ cover you will survive... barely. Yes, other squads will probably be able to finish you off, if you've left yourself exposed... but it not? You'll mulch the Cents. Or move away from them. They are slow. No, he doesn't have Armour 13 with a 3++. Instead, you have an armour save all around. And nothing spontaneously inflicts extra wounds, like an "explode" result does to a Knight. Trust me, I've killed plenty a Knight, and that almost always factors into it. And you can still have an Invul. And you don't need to spend over 1200 points on a formation to get that bonus to your invul.

1200. points. 4 WK for that. And those D-guns pounding those Knights before they can reach you. Sooooo sad for the WK.

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My big issue is that 90% of eldar are weak fragile dudes who die very easy. You can say well, use range but we don't really have the best gunline around.. So we got the WK, the one model we have that can soak up some fire and we cant even take more than 1. Yet you can take 5 knights or spam 6 helldrakes, 3 riptides etc. Every tourney is saying 1 WK but its just hate at eldar.

Eldar have a poor gunline. That's because they are a gun-wave. Flowing around. Refocusing their shooting. No good target? Move across the board in one turn! You have the kind of firepower that I, as a Guardsman, would weep for. On a MEQ platform. Moving like a dude that's strapped to a Jet Engine with a rudder.

Have you ever considered, that Jetbikes put out more hits per point than Imperial Guard infantry?

250 points of Guard will, at 20" range, achieve 25 hits on average. With Lasguns. And they move like molasses and have a GEQ statline.

243 points of Scatterbikes will, at 20" range, achieve 24 hits, on average. With pine-cone-ramming Scatter Lasers. And the move like the wind, have a MEQ statline, and can decide to Jink, if they are so inclined.

They're shootier than Guardsmen. I mean, what more do you need? You have the best gun-wave around. If something gets close, you hose them down with D-Scythes. Or Shuikens. Or you stomp them to a fine red paste. Or you just move away.

The loss of WK in the competitive environment is likely a response to Grav. Nothing else in the Eldar army suffers so greatly at the hands of what's a pretty obvious competitive choice. So you remove that singular ideal target, and you neutralize 300 points of your opponent's army. That's comparable to the 5th edition Mechanized craze, that saw people eliminating the usefulness of "Basic weapons" by running armour. Meltaguns were important to the meta, and you could run a counter-meta list by running Ork Hordes, for example. Cooking an Ork Boy with a Meltagun is a kick in the 'nards. Same deal with removing high toughness, good save models from a list. Take away a Grav's ideal target, and you're in the same boat. "Ok, I'll try to grav your Wave Serpent. Derp, you jinked." That would be the reason for WK's disappearing. Not that they aren't good, but because if you take them out, Grav Stars are greatly diminished in value.

It's not Eldar "Hate". No decent player "hates" another player. They can recognize a complete disparity of quality in codices, and will take effort to somewhat neutralize that disparity. It's not unreasonable for a player to wish to have a chance of winning, despite not bringing a top-3 dex. And there's a big stretch between the Top 3 and, let's say, number 5.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 05:27:27 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline murgel

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 02:59:36 PM »

No, they are not "all around powerful."  They are great against high toughness / MEQ / TEQ units, they are passable against armour, and they are down right terrible against GEQ.  Take into account that the least effective method of fielding a Grav weapon is on a Tactical Marine, and it is costing 19pts for that.  A more effective way to field a Grav Gun is on a bike, which is costing 36pts; and the most effective is a Grav Centurion, which you are paying 80pts for.
...
I find this interesting: you use meta to slag on Grav Weaponry, but personal experience to comment on Eldar.  I do agree that you are seeing less Eldar.  However, I have spoken with some of the top tournament players in Canada who have shelved the Eldar because it is too easy to win with them.

I'm really sorry mate.
We are talking two completely incompatible worlds.

Frankly, I do not know anything about tournament list, t-metas etc. any more. The few tournaments I played showed me that gaming "professional powergamers" is not to my liking.
So I'm unable to not discuss that with you. I can and will discuss the meta around me which is purely narrative. Going heavy on campaigns and the fluffy list.

You can probably imagine how it is around me by looking at my (or any ones) Eldar, SW, BA, DA armies which haven't changed much since 3rd ed. Only minor basic changes to incorporate new rules like called to battle for my DA list etc. and bringing in new units. The same time saw us going from about 1250- 1750 for a regular game to 1850 - 2500 for the regular game. But this is mainly to bring more of the same stuff that was in use before.
I'm willing to bet my 15k eldar army that tournament gaming has changed its "lists" massively in that time period.

Anyway, all I want to have understood is that the power level of any mini is a highly subjective value and I really hat it when people think they have the only truth.

@Lyonic:
Jetbikes HAD the massive footprint. They changed to the small flying base with the newer 3-Bikes box and the current ones use the same. That almost halved it's footprint.
The Terrain is a problem for you? start playing with at least 30% LOS blocking terrain and a 50% terrain total. We often have board with 30/60 and the games are most fun. Banshees can suddenly do their job with more LOS blockers and realistic tactics become more important to know and use. At the same time however range becomes less important. ...
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 04:02:28 PM »
The second you move bikes into terrain you have to take tests. Bikes have the same "footprint" because of the model size not the base.. If you have them any closer than 2" get ready for templates.

You may claim SW, BA, DA are weak, but take a look at any marine army which they can use freely and its a whole new ballgame.

Remember that centurians are rerolling to hit and to wound because of chapter tactics. I am not questioning the dmg difference between dscythes or termis in saying that the termies have such an easy delivery method that they cant be compared.

The wraithknight has had some new weapons and a jumppack.. My point is that these weapons are NOT d weapons and that is important for me. The whole 'eldar op units' is very misplaced regarding this update i feel. Ive used the new wraithknight with shroud.. Didn't do too well i must say. Anyone actually tested it yet?

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 04:28:53 PM »
The second you move bikes into terrain you have to take tests. Bikes have the same "footprint" because of the model size not the base.. If you have them any closer than 2" get ready for templates.

Oh noes! A 1/18 [5.5 %] chance to lose a duder! And templates are everywhere in the competitive meta. All those AP 3 template weapons being brought by... umm... Eldar... and um... Chaos Space Marines! Those OP, terror inducing Chaos Space Marines! All tremble before the glorious amphetamine parrot-storm that bears the 8 pointed star!

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You may claim SW, BA, DA are weak, but take a look at any marine army which they can use freely and its a whole new ballgame.
I would claim, that SW, and BA are weak. DA have their re-rollable 2+ cover saves on bikers that are spraying plasma like pros. I'm not sure what they're using freely, other than maybe hallucinogens? Dog sleds?

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Remember that centurians are rerolling to hit and to wound because of chapter tactics. I am not questioning the dmg difference between dscythes or termis in saying that the termies have such an easy delivery method that they cant be compared.
And at this point, the ignorance is like a wave, spreading from the point of impact. Centurians get rerolls to hit and wound because that's the weapons they're armed with. CT has nothing to do with it. Terminators have no place in competitive play, aside from MAYBE TH/SS termies. They need either a Storm Raven, or a Land Raider for deployment options. Quake in your boots, for I have placed 450 points into one Melee unit, with no particular "Death Star" shenanigans! Fear my OP-ness. Tee-hee. P-ness.


Happy days for the Wraithknight. It can now be tailored to defeat different enemies, and the Meltagun version can sneak under the D-Ban for tournaments. Huzzah.

Offline murgel

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2015, 05:28:18 PM »
The second you move bikes into terrain you have to take tests. Bikes have the same "footprint" because of the model size not the base.. If you have them any closer than 2" get ready for templates.

Sure mate, model size is a problem but one can not have all, and the smaller base really helps. At least it helps me.
I don't have an issue with the terrain test, sure I would love to have the "hover above or take cover in" rule again but ...
Besides I really love the image of an arrogant Eldar racing through the terrain and getting dismounted by a tree branch  ;D and I'm the Eldar's player...

You may claim SW, BA, DA are weak, but take a look at any marine army which they can use freely and its a whole new ballgame.

I don't know how it is around you but neither are "weak" around me. BA Dreads suffer from lack of update but the rest is still rather solid. Same goes with SW, solid because TW-cavalry is very rare. I think there are 6 models around me in total.
DA are very solid currently.
Eldar are as they have been. Fearsome fire power but fragile.
Currently weak are DE because the players have not jet figured out how to overcome the nerfs without making boring lists.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 05:35:55 AM by murgel »
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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2015, 06:07:37 PM »
I guess my issue is if you are talking pure codex then sure those armies are weak. But allies makes them just as strong.

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2015, 09:36:58 PM »
I guess my issue is if you are talking pure codex then sure those armies are weak. But allies makes them just as strong.
I guess by that reasoning, Tyranids are super over-powered because I can take 3 flying Hive Tyrants with 2 TL Devourers and 3 mucolid's for 735pts, and then ally in anything else.

Or we can make Eldar extremely OP by taking Wraithknights and Grav Centurions.

I'm really sorry mate.
We are talking two completely incompatible worlds.

Frankly, I do not know anything about tournament list, t-metas etc. any more. The few tournaments I played showed me that gaming "professional powergamers" is not to my liking.
So I'm unable to not discuss that with you. I can and will discuss the meta around me which is purely narrative. Going heavy on campaigns and the fluffy list.

You can probably imagine how it is around me by looking at my (or any ones) Eldar, SW, BA, DA armies which haven't changed much since 3rd ed. Only minor basic changes to incorporate new rules like called to battle for my DA list etc. and bringing in new units. The same time saw us going from about 1250- 1750 for a regular game to 1850 - 2500 for the regular game. But this is mainly to bring more of the same stuff that was in use before.
I'm willing to bet my 15k eldar army that tournament gaming has changed its "lists" massively in that time period.
If you know nothing of tournaments or the metas that drive them, how can you speak for many metas when you focus only on the one around you?  It's all well and good that your group hasn't changed much in the past two decades, and that you like to focus on narrative gaming and campaigns.  Bravo, good on you, wish there were more like you.  Sadly, there aren't.

Anyway, all I want to have understood is that the power level of any mini is a highly subjective value and I really hat it when people think they have the only truth.
You're right, it is subjective.  But when a unit is consistently taken by a majority of gamers in a competitive environment, that tends to demonstrate that there is something off about said unit or army. 

It really does say something when the top armies in quite a few tournaments are Eldar and Necrons.
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Offline murgel

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 05:59:34 AM »
If you know nothing of tournaments or the metas that drive them, how can you speak for many metas when you focus only on the one around you?  It's all well and good that your group hasn't changed much in the past two decades, and that you like to focus on narrative gaming and campaigns.  Bravo, good on you, wish there were more like you.  Sadly, there aren't.

Our group has changed in so far that we have many players come and go. I think the main difference is that most of the people playing come from a military background resulting in army lists which they consider tactically sound. That being sound not by using rule holes or rule shenanigans but sound in a rounded sense of covering most potential combat situations (no one would field a pure shoty army, CC is an option so you have to have the tool etc.)
And I disagree, about the distribution of players from narrative to competitive. There are many who play narrative and comp but as many who play narrative only. Pure comp gaming is a minority I think.

As far as metas go I'm not solely into the one around me. I read the net, talk to players etc. as everybody else. It is just that I do not go to tourneys any more.

You're right, it is subjective.  But when a unit is consistently taken by a majority of gamers in a competitive environment, that tends to demonstrate that there is something off about said unit or army.


Well, I can only agree with that statement. There has to be something of. It could be the unit is OP or the perception of the unit is of etc. many reasons really.
Say the 6th ed Serpent. There the players were of. They ignored the fluff entry in the codex stating the shield should be used only in dire need and instead used it as a regular gun. That was of.

I do not deny that the WK is a very powerful unit. I even say and said it should be around 450 not what it is.

It really does say something when the top armies in quite a few tournaments are Eldar and Necrons.

IMO it says "This army is abused easiest!" and "the net has build to rule them all!"

Necrons and Eldar are currently the easiest to be abused. As an Eldar player I'm sad about that. The codex is great all over and I love to have a great codex to make up for the last few editions BUT the codex has faults and the price of the knight is one.
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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 07:49:23 AM »
Even if its slightly undercoated, its about the only thing we have that can stand toe 2 toe with the big units out there bar using a titan. Eldar are feebly strong and a fart could blow over whole squads of eldar toughness guardians. Its just nice having that one unit. Sure warp spiders can be op if u cant charge and there is los blocking terrain or maybe bikes do have alot of shooting but they are the absoloite glass cannons.

The wraithknight has always been a hate figure for people which oa really sad. I think when people get beaten they blame the army and the wraithknight is an easy target.

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 10:56:23 AM »
A mod should probably just shut this thread down at this point, nothing productive is happening here

Its just arbor saying the same thing over and over, ignoring peoples well thought out responses in the process.

Hey arbor, its a game. Grow up

Offline Irisado

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2015, 11:01:02 AM »
No moderator action is required at this point.  Let's keep the thread clear from personal remarks and keep this discussion within the confines of the Wraithknight and associated comparisons/discussion, and it will remain that way.

If anyone feels that a post requires moderation at any stage please use the report to moderator button.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 11:02:14 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2015, 02:15:01 PM »
A mod should probably just shut this thread down at this point, nothing productive is happening here

Its just arbor saying the same thing over and over, ignoring peoples well thought out responses in the process.

Hey arbor, its a game. Grow up

Well, I change the grammar up a bit. It's not exactly the same thing. "Well thought out responses," are a matter of opinion. I'll assert that I have thought my responses out quite thoroughly, going so far as to pursue research across 3 codices and the rulebook, in my assessment of the Stormsurge, above. I get a game in every week or two, and my opponents are SM / Knights, Eldar, DA / Knights, Necrons, with some occasional Be'Lakor Chaos Marines. Aside from Daemons, I feel I'm up against some of the most powerful pre-Tau codices, on a regular basis. I feel I have both the practical and theoretical knowledge to produce a well informed opinion on this topic.

The assertion that the WK is the only thing that can stand toe-to-toe with the other big guys is rather misleading. It is not the Eldar's style to go toe-to-toe with something. And they don't really need to. They have plenty of tools to deal with a Knight, for example. WG, FD, SB [Scatter Bikes, side/rear arcs] so that they don't actually "need" a WK to do so. Outside of the Eldar codex, most non-deathstar-tournament-style armies have trouble dealing with multiple Knights at 1500 points. The army I suggested to my friend after a 30 minute perusal of the Eldar 'dex has no trouble dealing with multi-knights... or anything else really. It's easy to make a powerful take all-comers army with this codex. I didn't even use a WK in that list. It didn't need it. :) It doesn't mean that a WK isn't powerful, it's just one of many powerful options, and I thought trying out some other things would be more interesting, and fit his collection better.

I don't hate any player. I don't hate codices. I have strong dislikes of certain lists, though the only one I refuse to play without warning is Multi-Knights in 1500 points or less. It's not fun for me, and it's not fun for my opponent. Per a few post-game discussions, it just was boring, and unfun for both of us. In 20 years of wargaming, I've never refused a list, prior to Multi-Knights, and I gave it several tries. I'll still play it, if warned, but that's still a big thing for me. My group has never needed to "house rule" things to lock out options. We've always rolled with the big dogs, so to speak. Knights changed that.

Mr Sunstrider,

I'm not ignoring anyone. I'm kind of Sir Brucing things, to be honest, in an attempt to break down assertions contrary to my own. Assertions I disagree with on the basis of experience, and comparative research. It's kind of my thing. At least, it was at one time. The before time. My sarcasm and flippant replies are just, evolution, of this online persona. I used to try to be prim and proper, here. It became toxic. So I had to try again, this time a lot more of my personality comes through. I like humour. I deal with problems with a smirk and a grin. Drives some people crazy, but it's my way. It's probably one of those things that fails to translate through typing.

Anyhow, I've noticed that you're relatively new here. I hope my posts aren't pushing you away from this site. I remember being new here, and how challenging it could be to butt heads with the old guard. Feel free to disagree with me. Feel free to swing as hard as you like. I respect that. I can take it. :)

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2015, 02:20:12 PM »
I like the FW Knight a lot, they got the head shape just right compared to that terrible thing that GW did. Also that jump pack looks pretty cool, the regular one has way to many spiritstone thingys on it's back.

Might get one and make it look like a Warp Spider. If they come with two heads... :p
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Offline murgel

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2015, 05:53:09 PM »
When it comes to modelling and conversion I love the knight. Have seen so many gorgeous variants of him it is fantastic.
Taking that into account I simply can find no fault in FW offering new variants. I might even be tempted to buy the SpiderKnight, the other one looks quit similar to the dual-cannon one from the pics I have seen so far.

@ Spectral Arbor:

I agree totally with you, Eldar do not need the WK to deal with I-Knights or anything else really. The tools are there beside his existence. The Wraithguard variants IMO do a better job at destroying things with less cost, being less a target and (for speed) come with a serpent at roughly the same points. OK, CC wise the Knight is better by far.

For me and my tactics that means the knight is superfluous most of the time. Just when I have to kill greater demons do I consider him OR if I want to have a big target to draw fire. But the last is not the Eldar way, so it very rarely happens...
sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

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Offline Lyonic

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 08:39:22 AM »
I have to agree that i don't like all the bits coming out the back of the old wk, and the new head looks cool. Thing is its 105£ for a different head, arms and backpack. IM thinking that it might not be worth it so i converted mine using relevant magnets etc.

The warp hunters look good too if anyone has checked them out?

Offline The Reborn

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #37 on: December 2, 2015, 07:05:10 AM »
Hi Lyonic,

I use a Warphunter quite often and have found it pretty useful, and survivable too, given its range.  It's a deal more expensive now, but then it's using proper "D".....

Incidentally, a lot of you must be playing awful opponents, given the difficulty you say they are having taking down WK's......my last opponent, an ex-tourney winner, had no problems AT ALL removing TWO of them from the board in two turns ::)

Yes a Wraithknight is a tough prospect, but no more so than many units other armies can throw at you.  And just for Mister Arbor, I'm not in denial of the abilities of WK's or the Eldar in general, neither am I in denial though, of what other armies can throw at me.  My experience of 40k dates back to Rogue Trader, and I've played every version since.  This isn't my first rodeo, as the phrase has it, and my opponents are of a high calibre.  What I'm seeing is that GOOD PLAYERS are taking down WK's....bad ones are just whining about them.
We're seeing new weaponry, units, codices and formations which are levelling the playing field somewhat, and ignoring this fact really is denial.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #38 on: December 2, 2015, 08:20:07 AM »
I just ordered 3 warp hunters and a wraithseer after buying the new book. Its really amazing giving us more choices on how to build units not just the wraithknight. My concern is the growing number of tournaments that are limiting forgeworld models. Some of my local tournaments are banning FW so not skathach WK :(

Offline Irisado

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Re: New Wraith Knight discussion
« Reply #39 on: December 2, 2015, 08:29:58 AM »
Please let's keep this topic for discussing the Wraithknight, its strengths and weaknesses, and its role in Eldar armies.
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