News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Listing Exarchs in lists  (Read 1971 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Partninja

  • Warlock
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2731
Listing Exarchs in lists
« on: June 25, 2017, 08:39:22 PM »
I know it's a habit, but since Exarchs (or most squad leaders for that matter) are free, I don't think we need to list them specifically anymore. It gets confusing as people write the unit down in different ways so it's hard to tell how many models are actually in the unit.

This saves confusion, as why would you NOT take one? Just list the Exarch weapon if they take one. Don't list it if they don't.

5x Reapers XXX (Exarch is implied as it's free)

5x Reapers - Tempest Launcher XXX (again we know you have an Exarch and we know he has the tempest launcher).

Offline Blazinghand

  • Warlock | Master of the Ravenwing
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Country: us
  • Die for the Emperor or die trying!
  • Armies: Eldar, Orks
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2017, 10:12:12 PM »
Imagine a squad with 4 Dark Reaper Aspect Warriors, joined by 1 Dark Reaper Exarch with a Reaper Launcher. This squad would be listed and priced identically to simply 5 Dark Reaper Aspect Warriors. Because these are different and both legal, we need to write in a way that makes it clear, even if you always WOULD take an Exarch if you could. Here's what I do:

5 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Reaper Launcher
5 Shining Spears, 1 is Exarch with Star Lance

and so on. This is completely unambiguous. Yes, not taking an Exarch is strictly worse. However, we must be clear in our army lists.
Quote from: Howard Zinn
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.

Offline Partninja

  • Warlock
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2731
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2017, 10:30:06 PM »
Again, both of your example are extra wording that are not needed. The Exarch is still included and does not change price.

Your first paragraph emphasises my point exactly. 4 reapers joined by a reaper Exarch with reaper launcher. Does that mean 4 total, or 5 total? 4 total would be less points. 5 total would be more points.

This becomes increasingly more confusing as a lot of people don't list the total unit value at all (which is allowed) or sensor it with X's (I only did it in my OP as I didn't feel like referencing the points at the time).

Offline Blazinghand

  • Warlock | Master of the Ravenwing
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Country: us
  • Die for the Emperor or die trying!
  • Armies: Eldar, Orks
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 12:44:30 AM »
Again, both of your example are extra wording that are not needed. The Exarch is still included and does not change price.

Your first paragraph emphasises my point exactly. 4 reapers joined by a reaper Exarch with reaper launcher. Does that mean 4 total, or 5 total? 4 total would be less points. 5 total would be more points.

This becomes increasingly more confusing as a lot of people don't list the total unit value at all (which is allowed) or sensor it with X's (I only did it in my OP as I didn't feel like referencing the points at the time).

"5 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Reaper Launcher" is completely unambiguous.
"5 Dark Reapers" is not.

It's kinda dumb, but it's very easy to make it unambiguous, so why not do it?

"The Exarch is still included and does not change price" is a true statement, yes. And perhaps your opponents will be understanding, when you hand them a list and then say later "well, I don't SAY there's an exarch on the list, but OBVIOUSLY there is one, I mean come on, it's the same price"--I know that I certainly would be similarly understanding. On the other hand, I don't want to accidentally pull a fast one on someone when they're looking at my list before we deploy. I make it completely unambiguous for them out of respect. It's no effort and very easy.
Quote from: Howard Zinn
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.

Offline magenb

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Country: au
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2017, 03:58:22 AM »
FW books have points to upgrade to exarch and while the exarch is free it is still optional.


Offline Blazinghand

  • Warlock | Master of the Ravenwing
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Country: us
  • Die for the Emperor or die trying!
  • Armies: Eldar, Orks
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2017, 04:06:12 AM »
Yeah basically anything you take that is optional should be listed in my opinion.
Quote from: Howard Zinn
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.

Offline flatworldsedge

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: gb
  • Corners conceal treasures
    • flatworldsedge photography
  • Armies: Eldar
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2017, 04:24:04 AM »
To echo points above, I'd always want to see it stated for clarity.  If someone writes "5 Dark Reapers" I'd read that as unambiguously *not* including an exarch.  I'd imagine at first that for reasons of fluff or handicap perhaps they'd decided not to take one.

If they wrote "5 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch..." or "5 Dark Reapers, includes Exarch..." then it'd be clear how many models total, completely clear what they were and would only take them a few seconds more when writing the list.

The reason I think those few seconds of clarification are important is that whilst they'd be redundant a fair percentage of the time, on those occasions when someone took issue, they'd save everybody a huge argument and potential ill feeling.

Not everyone is fluent with every army book of course.  Whilst I'd get the logic of it being ridiculous not to have an exarch, if someone asked me to apply that to some other faction it'd all be a little tiresome.  I rarely play any of the Imperial factions, and imagine they all have some extravagant US military/latin named upgrade that would follow the same logic.  Trying to learn and juggle all that new information when about to start a game would waste so much more time than having everything in black and white to reference as and when needed.

Playing casually with friends it might not come up often (though I know it would be the legion of pedants I call friends), but in pick up games at GW stores, etc. when you're suddenly playing against people of all ages and experiences, I think it's more important.  Imagine trying to explain it to a ten year old with mother in attendance as he thought he'd just killed your exarch thinking it a standard aspect warrior... "No that still has a wound left, it has two, because it is an exarch, no it doesn't say that on the paper, but logically it would have to be because it would be inefficient for it not to be, given it's the same point cost, but better..."  The parent would just think you were pulling a fast one, and it'd be deeply uncomfortable.  For me the few seconds of clarification that make sure that scenario, however unlikely, never comes to pass are a great investment!

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11480
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2017, 07:35:20 AM »
I would recommend sticking to the previous convention of listing the Exarch, otherwise it becomes ambiguous.  I would always interpret any unit of Aspect Warriors without the Exarch being mentioned as not including an Exarch.  To avoid any uncertainty, it is, therefore, necessary to mention the Exarch's inclusion.

As for numbers, I've always written the unit's total number as including the Exarch.  For example:

10 Striking Scorpions: Exarch (upgrades).

This means 10 Striking Scorpions including the Exarch.  Most people who have posted army lists over the years here follow that convention, but some list the Exarch separately, for example:

9 Striking Scorpions
1 Exarch

Either is acceptable, in my view, so long as there is no room for ambiguity.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Fenris

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Country: se
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Aeldari
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 04:04:10 PM »
While the exarch is a even bigger nobrainer than before I still think it should be listed to avoid confusion, however I will continue to list it as one of many upgrades. No aspect warrior can however change their gear, only exarches can do that, so listing those upgrades does not need to be specifically assigned to the Exarch because noone else can choose that option.
I prefer doing this:
5x Aspect Warriors, Exarch, special weapoon1, special weapons2. (XX)p

rather than this:

Quote
4x Aspect Warriors (XX)p
1x Exarch, special weapon1, special weapon2.

While both ways are fine, the first one takes up less rows.
I do however not recommend using:
Quote
4x Aspect Warriors (XX)p, 1x Exarch, special weapon1, special weapon2.
or
Quote
4x Aspect Warriors, 1x Exarch, special weapon1, special weapon2. (XX)p
Because it's confusing and implies you can have more than 1 Exarch in a unit.

If you want to do it really neat I think this is the best way:

Quote
5x Aspect Warriors, Exarch, special weapon1, special weapon2. XXp
Ego in propria persona, non compos mentis.

Offline SeekingOne

  • Exarch
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
  • Country: ru
  • May Hoeth guide our ways...
  • Armies: Eldar (Saim-Hann), Space Wolves
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 09:48:15 AM »
If you want to do it really neat I think this is the best way:

Quote
5x Aspect Warriors, Exarch, special weapon1, special weapon2. XXp
This.

Personally, I also always show the total number of models in the unit, and treat Exarch as one of upgrades. Doing it otherwise (which is done by some applications out there like ArmyBuilder) makes a list extremely confusing and difficult to read. I did my share of pre-tournament list validation in the past, and validating Eldar lists prepared in Armybuilder has always been a nightmare.
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11480
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #10 on: July 3, 2017, 07:56:25 AM »
Just a reminder to everyone, that while a topic like this lends itself to answers along the lines of 'I agree', it's necessary to flesh out answers with more detail (as all messages above this post have done), in order to comply with forum rule 2.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Akaitsuki

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Country: us
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: Listing Exarchs in lists
« Reply #11 on: July 3, 2017, 11:07:48 AM »
I list anything that needs to be paid for, for the most part.

6 Dark Reapers
Reaper Launcher x5
Tempest Launcher x1

But i do see the argument here and will try to be more mindful of the specifics.

 


Powered by EzPortal