Topic: Dark Eldar Revisions #9 Scourges

[Kritik]

Aren't Hellions suppose to be the Kabal Fast attacks that rocks in CC? (Or are suppose to?) I would say just make the hellion better in Cc instead of introducing a new unit...

[Deamian]

OK, maby...I personaly think a winged model with CCW and pistol would look kinda silly, at least if they were based off of scourges.

Another idea for a similar "All kabal army" DE vetrans (yes, they are prettymuch a rip off of IG vetrans):
-May be armed with Splinter rifle, CCW & SP, or 12" assault 2 splinter rifles
-May 3 special weapons
-LD9
-May infiltrait, if they don't infiltrait, they can be mounted on a raider, they are fast attack
-Special raider "bail out" rule

[Kritik]

I think the initial idea is something like that of Tau. Something that flies around raining men... no I mean bullets. It's suppose to be like a battle suit with a jetpack. I honestly believe that was what the scourges were meant for. So maybe we should give them jump packs and have some kind of shrouding or shadow skin ability, because that goes best to the spirit of what this unit is and suppose to do, IMO. (I could be entirely wrong).

[faithlessmonkeigh]

nope i think you are onto something there hao li.
i think all those things are good ideas... specially when coupled with allowing them greater access to special weapons.

if we were to do this... would we expect a points increase?
cause we'd probably have to remove some of the scourges stuff if we didnt want a big points increase.

possibly take away their deepstriking rule?

everything else seems kinda relevant to them being weaker DE battle suits.

how much are they anyway? so we can compare them to scourges

faithless

[Deamian]

I think the initial idea is something like that of Tau. Something that flies around raining men... no I mean bullets. It's suppose to be like a battle suit with a jetpack. I honestly believe that was what the scourges were meant for. So maybe we should give them jump packs and have some kind of shrouding or shadow skin ability, because that goes best to the spirit of what this unit is and suppose to do, IMO. (I could be entirely wrong).

Do you mean jet packs? Because I am strongly aposed to that idea. No battlesuit posers for me.

[Khira'lyth]

Let the Tau keep their unique wargear... just because we got raped like an overused rag doll doesn't mean other armies should too.

And hellions are a Wych Cult Subsect - meaning they're hired by the Kabals, not part of them.  Kabal purists don't use any wych units at all.

And really - all I think they truely need is a points decrease.  They can pump out a wondrous amount of fire, are at least twice as relocatable as any other HW team, and... well... pretty much are cool.

Do we *need* scourges as a FA assault unit?  No.. especially not if Hellions get a fair overhaul.

Khira'lyth

[Kritik]

I think the initial idea is something like that of Tau. Something that flies around raining men... no I mean bullets. It's suppose to be like a battle suit with a jetpack. I honestly believe that was what the scourges were meant for. So maybe we should give them jump packs and have some kind of shrouding or shadow skin ability, because that goes best to the spirit of what this unit is and suppose to do, IMO. (I could be entirely wrong).

Do you mean jet packs? Because I am strongly aposed to that idea. No battlesuit posers for me.

I am trying to conceptualize the fluff of the whole ordeal, not just what it should have to be better, but what it should have to better perform its intended purpose. I see scourges as the Dark Eldar version of Tau suits. I really do.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Equivalent to Tau battle suits - maybe the stealth suits. I'd say, give them a shadow-skin like rule, drop the deepstrike ability, and perhaps, let them take up to 2 disintegrators on sustained only. That is for a sneaky squad. idea is that they are able to move around quietly and strike hard. Maybe if a Sybarite is taken, then the squad can infiltrate, may need an increase in Sybarite cost though, Maybe at + 8 pts, or at + 10 pts instead of +6.

OR

Let them keep their deepstrike ability, but also give them something like the swooping hawks grenade packs. Maybe a Dark Matter grenade. Something like str 8 AP 2 Large blast. Or something of that Like.

Both of the above options are for the same points as they are now, and count as HS - but don't but both options in the army. One or the other.

[Kritik]

Actually, my idea for them was the Necron's Veil + Tau battlesuit.

That would be cheesy though...

[Deamian]

Need I say it again? How about we NOT take a bunch of special rules from other armies.

Now as it stands there is no resonably priced semi-mobile heavy weapons squad out there. I think scourges should be that unit.

But they do need some sort of a night cloaking ability, either somthing like the night shield, nightfight rules required, or a bonus to thier cover save.

[Kritik]

Need I say it again? How about we NOT take a bunch of special rules from other armies.

Now as it stands there is no resonably priced semi-mobile heavy weapons squad out there. I think scourges should be that unit.

But they do need some sort of a night cloaking ability, either somthing like the night shield, nightfight rules required, or a bonus to thier cover save.

Okay, I was joking about the Necron Veil, but the redeploying-deep striking idea's pretty nice. The Eldar Hawks are about to have it (so it is rumored), and Necrons have it. (I mean come on, units with guns appearing and reappearing all over the battlefielding, raining hell wherever they go!)

I am serious, however about the jet packs. I mean, they are suppose to be a mobile fire squad.

[Deamian]

Re-deepstriking might be a possibility, as it fits with the whole idea of re-deploying.

Other than the whole "We can't steal frome other armies!" thing (which while I agree with isn't unrealistic with GW handing out rending like jimmies, changing turbo boost to an open buffet, and giving the equivelent of living metal to black templars) my main problem with that idea is that it dosn't fit with our theme.

Thats right, the jetpack form of mobile firepower DOSN'T fit our theme. The whole "hit-and-run" thing is a whimpy CWE/Tau idea and tactic. They do the whole hop around and shoot people thing pretty well.

We on the other hand hop around for a bit then hit hard and fast in one area and bludgeon them into a bloody pulp (or at least part of them into a bloody pulp).

I also have another reason, though it's purely asthetic. Jet packs make me think of them shooting stuff while flying, hopping around like a battlesuit. Now scourges I think of perched on a tower, rock, or some other large piece of terrain, standing relitively still, taking shots at the enemy gets too close, and then they fly away and redeploy.

[Kritik]

I don't know, you can hit and run on the same turn only if you have a jet pack. Then you can shoot, hit and then run. I don't know, i think jet-packs only encourage hit and run.

Anyway, I was trying to conceptualize what they are meant to do and they are suppose to be a mobile fire support that hide in crevices and rain terror down on the enemy from tactical areas.

[Deamian]

I don't know, you can hit and run on the same turn only if you have a jet pack. Then you can shoot, hit and then run. I don't know, i think jet-packs only encourage hit and run.

Actually I was saying the opposite. I DON'T think "hit-and-run" is our play style. That's the Tau/CWE play style. We are more of a "Hit hard and fast" army. Jet packs make them more static in reality, as they will generaly just be hopping in and out of cover. Full jump packs make them more tacticle.

[Kritik]

Damn. I need to read the posts more carefully.

I saw the Scourges as support, nothing that gets down and dirty. It's to penetrate the enemy lines and take down key units before the main strike.

That's how i see it, I also saw it doing its job more effectively with the jet packs.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Jet packs are basically giving the scourges a reliable fof. (I'm assuming that we are talking bout the 4 DL configuration here) Basically you move 12, and then since you can't shoot, get to move a guaranteed 6 inch move in the assault phase. Just an interesting question, (I don't have my BgB with me, lent it to a friend and it's way over due to come back home) but if scourges fired w/ their DLs would they be able to move 6 in the assault phase? If so, that is a bit to over power I think, although I could use it quite happily.

Now, if we use the 4 SC configuration, then I think Jet packs are way over powered, seeing as against swarm armies, they'd move out from behind cover, fire off 16 shots, and then move back behind cover again.

A bit OT, but is there any assault oriented unit in the game that has Jet Packs and can fof? If so, who, so I can target them soon into the battle.

[Kritik]

Why would someone with scourges want to fleet of foot? They want to shoot!

I still think Jetpacks are the way to go, especially at their point costs.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Sorry, I rushed my last post and didn't write it out clearly. Fof gives us an additional movement of 1-6 inches right? And the extra movement allowed by Jet Packs is equal to the maximum result of fof. Thus by giving a reliable 'fof' movement, without restricting their shooting abilities. And looking at the 3rd edition Tau Dex where it describes jet packs, I believe that unless specifically specified elsewhere, one could fire your 4 DLs and then move 6 in the assault phase to a new position for your next round of firring. Jet packs are effectively giving scourges a fof movement, without losing any shooting benefits.

[Deamian]

I think krikit was talking about somehow letting courges shoot thier DLs...

[Toad_Raider]

Going by the small snippet of text about Scourges that we have in the Codex, I would say that moving and firing is a must in a greater capacity then we have now (it refers to deep striking and letting lose a hail of splinter shots and "pulses of dark energy").  It also says about advancing and retreating depending on the enemies strength - once again, can work for splinter cannons but is a no for Dark Lances.

So in short, must move and fire with our heavy weapons, at the very least in a reduced capacity.  A move in the assault phase may or may not fix this, I am unsure of the exact rules for jet packs.