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Offline vampa

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Guardian Defence Line
« on: July 6, 2012, 12:58:03 PM »
I've always been really fond of the idea of having a core Guardian defensive line in an army, more from a visual/fluff perspective than from an effective game strategy point of view.  However, with the new fortification rules and some of the new psychic powers it's now more viable than ever.

I fancy a bastion with a gun on the roof manned by Rangers, Guardians inside the bastion with a heavy weapon and manning the heavy bolters, defence line outside with another gun manned by guardians with another heavy weapon (plus a warlock for the BS), support weapon battery, war walkers, and a farseer (and/or an autarch and a comms relay instead of the second gun if you're bringing a lot of stuff in from reserve).  I think this would look awesome and be a relatively fluffy defence force with a good chance of being effective.  Have your aspects/fast movers/heavy vehicles/etc. taking the fight to the enemy and contesting distant objectives.

You'd have a nice amount of ranged fire with good anti-vehicle and anti-air options covering a large portion of the battlefield.  Assaulters would have to run quite a gauntlet before finally getting through to your guardians outside, which with Foreboding if you roll it, Prescience, and good positioning with the defence line to minimize assaulters that can fight would really be quite brutal.  Your guardians in the bastion could also jump out and get a shot off if required.

I feel that anything that gets within range of this is going to take quite a hammering without being able to easily deal damage back with the high AV of the bastion and abundance of cover saves all over.  You'd need to position it well.. out enough and in range of objectives so it can't be ignored, but far enough away to maximise its shooting potential.  You're looking at over 1000 points for this (scatter lasers and d-cannons all around), so it's something really only for larger games, although you could of course trim it down as required.

What are your thoughts on this?  Do you think it would be effective?

Offline Sydonia

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #1 on: July 6, 2012, 01:14:28 PM »
I've been having a lot of similar thoughts myself.  Reading through the book makes me feel like we have a new codex.  The most exciting thing to me, as you mentioned, is taking a fluffy list seems more viable than ever.

I have always played Ulthwe but in order to be competitive never took more than 2 squads of Guardians.  Now I am not afraid to make a list similar to what you've posted above for all of those reasons.  I think you're heading in the right direction and I like it.  I am certainly going to be taking an abundance of support weaponry and war walkers.

So power on, brother!

Offline Partninja

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #2 on: July 6, 2012, 07:14:55 PM »
Don't forget Reapers! I plan on also trying a "gunline" list with a core of Guardians. I envision something similar to:

3-4x Defender Guardians (scatter lasers probably)
2x Guardian JB squads (for turn 5 objective boosts)
1-2x Heavy weapon batteries
1x Reaper squad
0-1x walker squadron
fill in with some counter attackers and fortifications

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #3 on: July 6, 2012, 07:54:50 PM »
While i do tend to agree that Guardians make for an excelent defencive unit (big, meaty squads of them are the best thing we have to hold Objectives now, IMO) i feel i should point out that your tactic, Vampa, wouldn't work.

Unless said Bastion is dilapitated, or you manage to swindle a good deployment zone from your opponent, you can't have both a Bastion and an Aegis line. This is because, as per the new Force Org chart, you only have one Fortification slot. If you were to take the Aegis line, you couldn't manually shoot weapons in the Dilapitated Bastion, and if you took the bastion, there are unlikely to be any guns on the Aegis line (which any sensible players would just dub empty barricates).

Otherwise, the idea is solid. If there is something the Eldar are good it, its lots of shots, and with Overwatch charging a heavily fortified possition of Eldar is a daunting idea. I wouldn't say it's fluffy, but it is certianly a viable tactic again.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #4 on: July 6, 2012, 08:06:56 PM »
While i do tend to agree that Guardians make for an excelent defencive unit (big, meaty squads of them are the best thing we have to hold Objectives now, IMO) i feel i should point out that your tactic, Vampa, wouldn't work.

Unless said Bastion is dilapitated, or you manage to swindle a good deployment zone from your opponent, you can't have both a Bastion and an Aegis line. This is because, as per the new Force Org chart, you only have one Fortification slot. If you were to take the Aegis line, you couldn't manually shoot weapons in the Dilapitated Bastion, and if you took the bastion, there are unlikely to be any guns on the Aegis line (which any sensible players would just dub empty barricates).

Otherwise, the idea is solid. If there is something the Eldar are good it, its lots of shots, and with Overwatch charging a heavily fortified possition of Eldar is a daunting idea. I wouldn't say it's fluffy, but it is certianly a viable tactic again.

With the new rules for setting up the board, it is very easy to get useful terrain where you need it. Terrain is placed AFTER mission, battlefield, and Fortifications.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #5 on: July 6, 2012, 08:17:54 PM »
Usefull terrain and and fortifications with an abundance of stationary guns to fire are two different things, Particularly when the rules for such non-FOC fortifications, and their weapons, are quite clear as to who can fire what.
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Offline vampa

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #6 on: July 7, 2012, 06:29:49 AM »
Lachdonin, you are quite right.. I'd presumed that you could take an additional fortification with a secondary detachment but that's not the case.  Partninja, you have a very good point which saves this: take the bastion and gun as your fortification and place a defence line (without the gun) as terrain nearby for your ground units - all you're loosing is one emplaced weapon, that extra gun was just the icing on the cake really.

I know, it's a bit underhanded and gaming the terrain positioning seems a bit off.. but we're crafty Eldar!

Offline Grey Mage

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #7 on: July 9, 2012, 07:36:27 AM »
You are incorrect.

You can have a fortifaction for each primary detachment in your army. First sentence of the first paragraph in the fortifactions page. Its even bolded.
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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #8 on: July 9, 2012, 10:11:08 AM »
You are incorrect.

You can have a fortifaction for each primary detachment in your army. First sentence of the first paragraph in the fortifactions page. Its even bolded.

I opperate under the assumption that were are talking singular detachments. The idea of multipul detachments is nothing new, and i have a sneaking suspicion that they won't change how the game works for most of us.
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Offline vampa

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #9 on: July 9, 2012, 11:20:11 AM »
Grey Mage, ahh.. excellent, I thought I'd read that somewhere but then when I looked over the rules again I couldn't spot it.  So, this is a viable option for 2000+ games.

Lachdonin, in all the time I've had/played 5th I'd not once noticed the paragraph on multiple detachments!  For me this has always been a pain for large (sub-apoc) games as I have a lot of heavy support (I like the models), and no good fast attack (I don't like the models, except Swooping Hawks).  This was one of the 'new' features I liked about 6th.   :-[

Offline Partninja

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Re: Guardian Defence Line
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 08:08:12 PM »
I know, it's a bit underhanded and gaming the terrain positioning seems a bit off.. but we're crafty Eldar!

Gaming the terrain is part of the game, and allowed. There are pro's and con's but it is balanced two ways. 1)Both players are able to pick and place terrain so one person shouldn't get the shaft. 2) If you don't take turns, but instead just agree on a balanced (maybe almost symmetrical) table, neither player should get an advantage since you know who is on what side of the table, and what the deployment/mission is before you set up the table. The only con being, that since both players can place terrain to their advantage, it can make some boring games if neither person really gets any real disadvantage from the start. Having to work around less than perfect situations is part of the game, and that starts with deploying your army in your zone.

I may be somewhat spoiled as the tables at my LGS are always set up with balance in mind, even when we take turns placing one piece at a time. Spread out even terrain just makes for a better visual and playing experience we have found. It's usually just a fight over who gets the less annoying buildings/woods/rubble to place models in in their deployment zone :P

Every game I play, I start to tweak closer and closer into a shooty almost gun-line army as my go to list.

 


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