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Offline Spacedwarv

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2005, 04:27:35 PM »
k   Is this list a clone of the rt list or what
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed from all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to all.

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2005, 02:17:27 AM »
Read the Foreword of the list and you will have it all explained...

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2005, 11:03:15 AM »
I am sorry to bump this, but in response to some very well-written PMs I have added Ancestral Hatred to the special rules, and I am working on a trait-system, similar to the SM-one. Any thoughts on this is appreciated.

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Offline Cadian9th

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2005, 02:48:51 PM »
I notice you gave the squat warriors a WS of 3, did they originally only have a WS of 3 in the RT rules?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2005, 03:21:50 AM »
No, the originally had 4, but the again, they had Ld 9 and a lot of other stuff as well. Stats were not the same then as they are now. Marines were WS 5 in many cases, for instance. It is just a way for them to "get with the times" a bit. I can't just move the stats over, as it would make less sense.


Version 0.08 is now up. It has some veteran-upgrades that the previous one didn't have.

Playtesting has shown that the Hearthguard, especially the non-exo-armoured ones in Rhino, are very vulnerable to assaults. Countercharge has been mentioned as away to counter this. Any thoughts on how to include this and at what cost?

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Offline Nuclearfeet

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2005, 07:34:22 AM »
nice work so far.  Instead of counter-charge, maybe make them immune to the entanglement rule when their transport is destroyed.  This should be for no extra points cost, btw.  Or at least make them 20 pts per model instead of 19.

also...they can be in exo-armor and mounted on bikes at the same time? Seems a little redundant...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 07:35:32 AM by nuclearfeet »
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2005, 08:50:27 AM »
1. There is pretty much nothing that is immune to entanglement. It seems odd to try to invent rules when a USR existsts to suit the need, doesn't it?
2. Well, yes, but there are models for them, and if anyone have them they should have a place in the army, don't you think?
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Offline Nuclearfeet

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2005, 04:46:07 PM »
well if there are models for them, then go for it.  :)
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2005, 01:34:10 AM »
I don't have any, but I might some eventually, or someone who has them might want to use this list too, and then I felt it more or less essential to include them. They look pretty funky too; powerweapon lance and all!

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Offline Grotsky

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #29 on: November 5, 2005, 06:40:57 AM »
Excellent work!
As of today I was thinking on how to use squats in 40k. Now I have the answer - your list! Of course I've got some comments and/or suggestions but I want to start to say that I like the list very much indeed and of the things that I don't bring up below, I'm very happy with and should remain as they are... if you ask me that is. ;)
And I have seen the RT-list for the squats (by courtesy of Mr. Rasmus) but I've never played with or against any type of squats... so maybe I don't know the real flavour of the squats. But I'm not going to let that stop me. And if I explain something incoherent or need to rephrase my entry, just tell me and I'll do my best. But I'll be very picky...

Rapier L.Destroyer

Don't need str.10 and AP1. The long range and 2d6+9 will do quite nicely I think. It'll make it a badass lascannon instead of a badass railgun.

The blast tips
I don't know... they're OK as a concept, maybe a bit inexpensive. The incendiary needs a some clarification though. Can you use all six templates on the same spot? Perhaps they can't overlap or something... the roasting delivered by six heavy flamers on a single unit (if possible) is not to be underestimated... Personally I'm quite fond of flamers but that's of topic... Otherwise it seems like a good idea.

Conversion beemer
OK, don't change a thing, it's perfect! OK maybe the AP1 to AP2 so that nobody gets confused as to the glancing hit caused by a AP1 weapon gets converted into a penetrating hit. Minor detail though...

Power field
Maybe it should be one per army? It's pretty darn good... maybe not though, as only the HQ's can have it.

Mole mortar
Really like the different burst-types reflecting the capabilities of the shot. But... I think that "only" glancing hits from a mole mortar would be better, brings it in line of being more of a infantry killer than a Land raider hunter. It also fits with the minefield rules (glancing only). So my proposition is to make 4+ glancing hit, which is pretty good against heavier vehicles. Make it a bit more expensive as well perhaps 15 pts? Since it got extra capabilities not just killing power.

Tarantula
I don't see why it has to have a d2 shots. Twinlinked is really good as it is. I agree that the d2 doesn't do much... which for me is another reason for it to go. About points costs... round it to more even numbers! Such as 15, 20 etc. just cause it looks nicer ;D And make the missile launcher cheaper. Make it the same points as the lascannon?

Kinghand and ancestor
They have str. 5, make it str 4  That make their str. upgraded in the same manner as an ork warboss.

Ancestor psychic powers
Fun and different powers. A good mix. Perhaps you want to up the domination a bit, since 5 pts is... very inexpensive for a great power. The effects of pinning are great and especially since there's no way to protect youself from it, 5 pts is a bit to little, maybe 15?

OK. I'm finished now. I don't want to give you the wrong idea here, because I think it's a very solid list. Much better than the lists I tried and failed to produce some years ago. Maybe there's reasons (most likely knowing Rasmus) as to why the list as it is and maybe I agree with you once explained as to why you've made certain decisions the way that you have.  Well good luck and I hope that perhaps some of my suggestions helps you perfect your your fine piece of craftsmanship (I'm talking about list...).

Keep up the good work!

/grotsky

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #30 on: November 5, 2005, 09:52:51 PM »
Quote
Rapier L.Destroyer

Don't need str.10 and AP1. The long range and 2d6+9 will do quite nicely I think. It'll make it a badass lascannon instead of a badass railgun.
  True enough. It should be like that. Will ammend.

Quote
The blast tips
I don't know... they're OK as a concept, maybe a bit inexpensive. The incendiary needs a some clarification though. Can you use all six templates on the same spot? Perhaps they can't overlap or something... the roasting delivered by six heavy flamers on a single unit (if possible) is not to be underestimated... Personally I'm quite fond of flamers but that's of topic... Otherwise it seems like a good idea.
   Yeah, will tighten that up a bit. It has undergone some playtesting and does fairly well for the points, but nothing too massive.

Quote
Conversion beemer
OK, don't change a thing, it's perfect! OK maybe the AP1 to AP2 so that nobody gets confused as to the glancing hit caused by a AP1 weapon gets converted into a penetrating hit. Minor detail though...
   Of course. Thanks.

Quote
Power field
Maybe it should be one per army? It's pretty darn good... maybe not though, as only the HQ's can have it.
   Again, spot on.

Quote
Mole mortar
Really like the different burst-types reflecting the capabilities of the shot. But... I think that "only" glancing hits from a mole mortar would be better, brings it in line of being more of a infantry killer than a Land raider hunter. It also fits with the minefield rules (glancing only). So my proposition is to make 4+ glancing hit, which is pretty good against heavier vehicles. Make it a bit more expensive as well perhaps 15 pts? Since it got extra capabilities not just killing power.
   Will look into this as well. It was a severel piece of hardware back in the day, but I will look.

Quote
Tarantula
I don't see why it has to have a d2 shots. Twinlinked is really good as it is. I agree that the d2 doesn't do much... which for me is another reason for it to go. About points costs... round it to more even numbers! Such as 15, 20 etc. just cause it looks nicer Grin And make the missile launcher cheaper. Make it the same points as the lascannon?
   I will need to dig up some more rules on them and test more I guess. PLaytesting has shown that D2 is pretty ok, and it it was drop the prices would drop too.

Quote
Kinghand and ancestor
They have str. 5, make it str 4  That make their str. upgraded in the same manner as an ork warboss.
   How so?

Quote
Ancestor psychic powers
Fun and different powers. A good mix. Perhaps you want to up the domination a bit, since 5 pts is... very inexpensive for a great power. The effects of pinning are great and especially since there's no way to protect youself from it, 5 pts is a bit to little, maybe 15?
   Will look into it and tell you what I find out.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions.

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YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Grotsky

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #31 on: November 6, 2005, 02:56:15 AM »
Quote
Quote
The blast tips
I don't know... they're OK as a concept, maybe a bit inexpensive. The incendiary needs a some clarification though. Can you use all six templates on the same spot? Perhaps they can't overlap or something... the roasting delivered by six heavy flamers on a single unit (if possible) is not to be underestimated... Personally I'm quite fond of flamers but that's of topic... Otherwise it seems like a good idea.
   Yeah, will tighten that up a bit. It has undergone some playtesting and does fairly well for the points, but nothing too massive.

Allright 8)


Quote
Quote
Mole mortar
Really like the different burst-types reflecting the capabilities of the shot. But... I think that "only" glancing hits from a mole mortar would be better, brings it in line of being more of a infantry killer than a Land raider hunter. It also fits with the minefield rules (glancing only). So my proposition is to make 4+ glancing hit, which is pretty good against heavier vehicles. Make it a bit more expensive as well perhaps 15 pts? Since it got extra capabilities not just killing power.
   Will look into this as well. It was a severel piece of hardware back in the day, but I will look.
It's all I'm asking for! Just afraid that they get to allround. I will bide my time...

Quote
Quote
Tarantula
I don't see why it has to have a d2 shots. Twinlinked is really good as it is. I agree that the d2 doesn't do much... which for me is another reason for it to go. About points costs... round it to more even numbers! Such as 15, 20 etc. just cause it looks nicer Grin And make the missile launcher cheaper. Make it the same points as the lascannon?
   I will need to dig up some more rules on them and test more I guess. PLaytesting has shown that D2 is pretty ok, and it it was drop the prices would drop too.

That's OK as long as you don't make everything dirt-cheap.

Quote
Quote
Kinghand and ancestor
They have str. 5, make it str 4  That make their str. upgraded in the same manner as an ork warboss.
   How so?

The ork boyz start out with the same Str. as the basic squats, but as the ork grows and gets thougher and bigger the more prominent possisition in in the warband he gets to. When he's got to the top of the warband he has added two points of Str. to his former basic Str. The orks are as we all know the exception of upgrading Str. Allright, the farseer and his thougness joins the lot 8). My point is that having the Str. of the squat characters upgraded once is an exception to the normal procedures of characters and their stat-increasement. And I feel that this is correct since I would like to give the squats (and orks by the way) a Str. of 3,5 or something. I feel that the squats (and orks) should be stronger than eldar and guardsmen but not as strong as Adeptus Astartes. By increasing the Str. one point to 4 is a way of showning that the squats pack some more muscle than your average guardsman. However as I said before I think that upgrading the Str. two notches is a bit to much... more than CSM can get without upgradeing themselves to monsterous creatures.

So here's my "quick-fix" that you might want to concider.
Make the Kinghand and Ancestor Str.4 T. 5

After all a one point increasement in T. for a Squat is in my opinion a very reasonable thing, and it gives the Kinghand an advantage over the Thane. The Ancestor Str. has his motivation above and his thoughness is corresponing to the farseers thougness, both of them being old and ancient so I think it seems appropriate.

Quote
Quote
Ancestor psychic powers
Fun and different powers. A good mix. Perhaps you want to up the domination a bit, since 5 pts is... very inexpensive for a great power. The effects of pinning are great and especially since there's no way to protect youself from it, 5 pts is a bit to little, maybe 15?
   Will look into it and tell you what I find out.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions.

No, seriously... thank you!

I'm looking forward to future development in this thread and your Codex:Squats, the best Codex:squat ever!
« Last Edit: November 6, 2005, 05:07:21 AM by Rasmus »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #32 on: November 6, 2005, 06:56:14 AM »
I have gone over it and done the math over some of these isues. By RT and 2nd ed the Tarantula should not be twin-linked, byt fire twice, but 1-2 twin-linke is simply slicker and smoother. A lot of your suggestions have been adopted, and the S-progression is now Basic squat -> Hearthguard/Thanehand -> Kinghand/Ancestor. The reson the last two are at +2 is is because a) they are dwarves and not humans, and grow in strength and not speed as they grow more powerful. b) the ancestor is psychically augmented to perform strikes.

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Offline Grotsky

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #33 on: November 6, 2005, 09:53:47 AM »
OK, the twin-linked part of the tarantula is what I feel is most important, the d2-shots is of minor importance I guess, though a nice little bonus! ;D I have to think about the 2 hots for a tarantula, maybe that's a smart way to go. Don't misunderstand me, you've given this a great deal more thought than I have and I'm not trying to get you to change the tarantulas d2 twin-linked. I just need to process this , to me, new option of 2 shots. Pew... a long rant about nothing is what I've created.

The S.-progression you've chosen as posted in your previous post is fine, as you say squats aren't human/eldar or anything but squats. So I'll buy as much as three steps on the Str.-ladder. for squats, with the mightiest on the very top. I agree with you that it is a good approach and now I see more clearly underlaying mechanistics. Keep it the way it is, I guess just didn't understand earlier. :)

So what I'm I complaining about!?!? I don't know, I guess nothing since the jobs a good Un!

Maybe I'll make an army list... hmm... what models to use? Do I have the time/money/commitment to make this in... sorry! Thinking out loud again.

And if you do take pictures please post them so that I can get jealous!

/Grotsky


Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #34 on: November 6, 2005, 10:24:48 AM »
Models: I started collecting my squats over trade-places and ebay over a year ago, and now have the models gathered, and I am ready to start painting (as soon as I tie up some loose ends). You can make good squats out of plastic dwarves and marine/ig bits. Didn't you make one of those back in Gävle at one time?
Once the models start getting done pictures will be posted here, and included in the codex as well.
Traitsystem is undergoing balancing as well, further down this board.

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Offline Grotsky

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #35 on: November 6, 2005, 01:11:04 PM »
Indeed I did make some squats. A couple of hearthguard, a couple of exoarmours, and a small brotherhood squad. They were a bit cumbersome to make though and the brotherhood squad all had their lasguns on the shoulder with the stock in their left hand... you know marching style. But new times, new options. I'll check out the traits and stuff.

/grotsky

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2006, 09:14:26 AM »
I have all-original models by now, and have gotten a fair deal on some of them. I think I have enough to fill an FoC which is pretty much my intent at this point. One entire FoC and some extra Heavies to tailor to opponent, and some extra HQ-models to cover armour/transport-options.

Updated the top post as the versions have moved a bit, and we are geting close to completing and final playtesting.

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Offline Bannedface666

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #37 on: February 2, 2006, 11:39:43 AM »
I don't know about your list. Your list has that 'feel' that made squats go bye bye in the first place. They 'feel' like a mix of imperial gaurd and ork. I do know that you are making a rt list updated for 4th ed use, and not a straight up 4th ed list, but still, even after nearly 20 years of playing squats before quitting back then, I feel like its the exact same squats as before.

I know that is what you are aiming for, so congrats on replicating the old RT feel perfectly, but my issue is stats wise.

I feel like Squats should be better at shooting. I don't see how they would have a WS of 4, but a BS of 4. I don't think there is even an army that has stalines in the way i invision Squats.

For my tastes, Squats should be shooty. I mean, they have low initiative, they assault like slugs, and their strength and armor save say they arent an assault oriented race. I can see how 'dwarves' have always been assaulty, but that is in fantasy games, like Dungeons and Dragons and such. For sci-fi, the high technology Squats should shed some of the 'imperial feel' and be better at shooting.

Because the way I see them, is that they have Ork like stats with the average shootiness of Imperial Guard.

Maybe they can always get a bonus for saves since they are so short. Physically they can hide behind anything really.

I just feel that the 'crazy mouth foaming battle dorf' from fantasy should be booted.

WS BS ST T W I A LD
 3    4  3   4 1  2 1 7

Once again I know you are just trying to replicate dorfs from RT days and not a complete 4th ed revamp, so maybe what I am saying is out of line to your vision, I dont know.

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #38 on: February 7, 2006, 10:30:31 AM »
After reading your list a couple times, looking over other online squat codeci, and trying to create my own codex, I have realised that the codex ideas I wanted to use were all represented in your codex!

Your online Squat codex seems the most balanced codex I have seen. It most def. has a Squat feel to it from the RT days, PLUS it is different from the other current official 40k codeci.

I retract what I said in my previous post above. I didn't look through enough online codeci to realise how near-perfect your list is.

I have a few issues with your codex, but the followissue seems to me the most important one that you have not addressed;

Where are your Squats with Bolters? I have over 200 metal squats, and 176 of them have bolters. If I were to use your list as my 'official-unofficial' codex at my hobby store, I couldn't use my Squats.

I believe your Squat squads should have this option under 'options'...

"Any model in this squad carrying a lasgun or laspistol may exchange its current weapon for a bolter or bolt pistol for +2 points"

This way, Squats with weapons that CANNOT be physically altered, unless I destroy my models with a Dremel for 2 months, could be used in your list without that hokey "Any models using a bolter counts as a lasgun" crap.

I think Squats using bolters in your list would add to the feel that Squats are the Imperiums one true ally.

Also, the Hearthgaurd are the only Squats able to take a Termite Transport. Shouldn't this be available to the Assault troops? I am sick of army lists, like Marines and Dark Eldar, that define the difference between shooters and assaulters by their transport choice and hand weapons. Giving the Assault troopers a Termite Choice wont over power them, since the termite costs so much, but having one unit of assaulters popping up in the middle of the enemy is something I see the squats doing. Plus, shouldn't the Termite count as Open Top, so the Hearthgaurd couldn assault teh turn they come in? NOt actual Open Top for damage, but for the assault. It is 135 points!

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats - 4th ed - Homemade list
« Reply #39 on: February 7, 2006, 11:20:28 AM »
After reading your list a couple times, looking over other online squat codeci, and trying to create my own codex, I have realised that the codex ideas I wanted to use were all represented in your codex!
   Thank you.

Quote
Your online Squat codex seems the most balanced codex I have seen. It most def. has a Squat feel to it from the RT days, PLUS it is different from the other current official 40k codeci.
   I have tried a great deal not to overpower this while still providing versatility enough to play a fun army. I am still working over some of the points.

Quote
I retract what I said in my previous post above. I didn't look through enough online codeci to realise how near-perfect your list is.
   I do not agree. It is far from complete, but it is going in the right direction.

Quote
I have a few issues with your codex, but the followissue seems to me the most important one that you have not addressed;

Where are your Squats with Bolters? I have over 200 metal squats, and 176 of them have bolters. If I were to use your list as my 'official-unofficial' codex at my hobby store, I couldn't use my Squats.
   Both Combat-squads and Assault-squads are allowed to upgrade lasguns to bolters. Did you miss that?
   They do not allow mixed upgrades as it gets a bit confusing (throwback to 2nd ed) and I have just placed all the bolter-armed squats in the same squads.

Quote
I think Squats using bolters in your list would add to the feel that Squats are the Imperiums one true ally.
    Well, they had bolters before the Imperium wanted them as allies, since they have STCs.

Quote
Also, the Hearthgaurd are the only Squats able to take a Termite Transport. Shouldn't this be available to the Assault troops? I am sick of army lists, like Marines and Dark Eldar, that define the difference between shooters and assaulters by their transport choice and hand weapons. Giving the Assault troopers a Termite Choice wont over power them, since the termite costs so much, but having one unit of assaulters popping up in the middle of the enemy is something I see the squats doing.
   Commandsquads can use the Termite too, including the Veteran Advisor squad. I have not been trying out the termite that much yet, but I thought it would be good not to overstep the access to the thing. The assault-squads for the marines do not get access to droppods, as a comparison.

Quote
Plus, shouldn't the Termite count as Open Top, so the Hearthgaurd couldn assault teh turn they come in? NOt actual Open Top for damage, but for the assault. It is 135 points!
   Marines cannot assault out of drop pods, even though they are open-topped. And the pod is 125 points. That IS high though. I think I will need to revisit the math on that, but it has to to with the fact that it can be reentered. Possibly, if this was dropped, the points could be dropped down a fair bit.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

 


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