Topic: How Effective Is the Avatar?

[Lyonic]

I was thinking about an avatar are they good?

[Irisado]

Split from Fenris's army list topic.  It's much better to start a new topic to discuss a particular unit's effectiveness, rather than to do it in someone else's army list thread.

The question you're asking is too generic.  What sort of list would you be thinking of incorporating the Avatar into?  Which armies do you normally play against?

[Lyonic]

Hey o/ sorry i wasent trying to de-rai, was jst looking for experiences with the avatar. Mainly because i really like the model and the fluff. I do however have some real reservations about how good the avatar would be on a competitive list. If i was playing vs an avatar it would be the first thing i would shoot.


So he has pretty awful movement as he cant take any transports, has guardian movement, can be hurt by bolters, has less wounds than the wknight. I think most importantly because he cant join a unit anymore he just seems like a wet paper bag waiting to be shot at.

his buffs are amaze balls! One thing eldar suffer from is low str and the avatar helps big time. Having no fear and having extra attacks also is cool.


I would obviously use this model in a psychic heavy list as he needs to be protected until he gets any use. banshees i feel would benifit the most as wounding most models on a 5 is really poor. So it would most undoubtedly be footdar as everything needs to go at his pace.


Again in just worried he would get blasted off the table. Would love to hear your thoughts!

[Wyddr]

When I've seen the Avatar, it has been as an anchor for footlists, as you mention. He is certainly effective enough if you can get him into combat. Also of note is this:

If i was playing vs an avatar it would be the first thing i would shoot.

Yes, yes you would. That, as it happens, is one of the main reasons to take him. You would spent a turn (or two) of shooting trying to take the monster down and *not* shooting all the guardians, Aspects, War Walkers, and what-have-you that the rest of your army involves. Even if the Avatar dies, he just went and bought you a turn or two of more-or-less free movement.

Now, is that worth the cost? I don't know. It's certainly cheaper than a Wraithknight (though not nearly as good a bullet sponge) and somewhat more expensive than a Wraithlord (which is *not* as good a bullet sponge) and the bubble effects, if you actually get to use them, are pretty sweet. Overall, I think there's a place for him. It would be primarily for infantry-based Eldar armies, though. 

[Cavalier]

The Avatar can be very effective when properly supported, sent after the right targets utilizing a cautious approach to movement and cover.

In the current state of the game he cannot be sent stomping up the board aggressively in the beginning phases of the game. He needs to be held back cautiously moving up using as much LOS blocking terrain as possible. He's gotta used as a backfield defender, who by turns 3-5 is ready to engage mid-field infantry units. Ideal targets are Necron Warriors, mobs of Ork boys, Tactical Marines and other big units of standard infantry.

He excels at clearing mid-field objectives, tying up and quickly dispatching dangerous shooting units, or other units which could tarpit a units like Wraithknights or units which could grab your own high value shooting units like Laser Bikes.

With his buffing abilities he makes units like Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, and Wraithblades very nice. Yet they too must be held back, waiting to engage mid-field targets. Wraithlords and Wraithknights are excellent partners for the Avatar and alongside them you can truly dominate the center of the board.

With a strong, streamlined list with a nice attack wing of mobile dangerous shooting like Laser-Bikes, Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents and a Wraithknight, the Avatar and a single partnering close-combat unit (Wraithblades, Wraithlord, Banshees, Scorpions) can make for an incredibley potent list with great balance. I think such an approach stacks up very well against Space Marines, Necrons and Orks.

Again he's a trailer unit, that lurks slowly up to mid-field behind as much LOS terrain as possible, preferably within assistance range from a Wraithknight or Wraithlord. Under those conditions he can be very effective.

 

[Rx8Speed]

You take the avatar for the combat buffs and the hope that he gets into combat and annihilates something, and only in a warhost. He needs the full run move from being part of a warhost. The only way to not have him not get shot up is to present an even scarier target to shoot, which is basically just wraithknights. I feel a storm guardian battle host with the avatar, a wraithknight and an aspect host would be a solid army

[Ibushi]

I have never used the new incarnation of the Avatar, but am keen to try.

Cavalier puts it well -- he is not actually a forerunner, but a cleaning up unit. Especially in current meta.

List I am pondering right now:

Warhost:
Farseer
3x 8 Storm Guardians (2x fusion, 2x power sword)
Vyper + Weaver + War Walker w/ SL

Avatar
Wraithknight - sword, shield

Aspect Host:
2x 7 Warp Spiders
5 Fire Dragons

CAD:
Farseer - jetbike, stone
Farseer - jetbike
2x 3 Laser bikes

Void Shield Generator (3 shields)

1850

* 3 Farseers are to try and get defensive powers such as Fortune/Invisibility for the Avatar & Wraithknight, as well as Doom/Prescience to maximize damage output.
* Warp Spiders are for spec ops maneuvering and taking out the flanks, while the storm guardians + avatar charge right up the middle behind the wraithknight + fire dragons. (Fire dragons are basically a bait unit that your enemy will definitely shoot.)
* Target opponent's Knights/WKs etc followed by speed elements, to hold him in place and dominate in CC.

If the entire Warhost is slain by Turn 5, but the Farseers and jetbikes are able to cap objectives without being threatened, you win.

Really tempted to try this out and see what happens...

[Lyonic]

I think the issue simply is, that I don't have the models. The only 2 units I feel that would benefit from the Avatar are Howling Banshees and the Wraith Blades. Banshees with their marine armour AP, No overwatch rule and fear are great because they are cheap. Wraith Blades on the other hand, will usually if taken correctly IMO always go last with Terminator AP. Because they go last they may take losses, so making their wounds hurt is important. I also feel that both these units need more than an Avatar alone to make them playable.... What I mean is the buffs they get are cool and all, but they are not an 'auto-include'. To do this they really need a dedicated psyche in with them to help them out. Most notably a Spiritseer. As he is a HQ he can join any of these squads and has access to a great table with 'Runes of Battle'.

Now I ask you good people, read through the runes of battle and tell me that apart from spells 1 and to a lesser extent 5, how awesome this table would be for the units I talked about. Banshees, wounding marines on 3's. Wraithblades able to wound a wraithknight on 5's. That's huge if you get the right spell. Even things like, 'Bonus to Initiative really helps wraith blades', as they would go before anyone else who had power fists etc. Something to think about I think.


As for units like Stormguardians... meh I really don't think they come close to the units mentioned above in regards to 'auto-include'. I would go as far to say that Storm Guardians are the worst unit in the entire codex. I would rather have 10 Defender guardians with a platform marching up the table any day.

Scorpions you might think would be awesome right? Well, they are already pretty good as they are. The problem they have I think is their weapons are good enough to go through elder guardian armour and that's about it. Which lets them down. I always found scorpions were about exarch delivery so getting +1 attack is kinda meh...


Ok so here's the question. If I was running the Avatar it would be a foot list; but would you say a Seer Council on foot was also mandatory? People have been saying about the Wraithknight but I promise you I would shoot the Avatar first. There is enough alpha on the table to kill both IMO if you come across a competitive list.

Turn 1, wraithknight and avatar dead,
Your turn 1, Conceed.

XD

[Rx8Speed]

It's harder than you think to kill an avatar. Sometimes that 5++ stops a lot of damage. Also storm guardians back by an avatar are mean. 4 attacks each on the charge from a model with a single digit point cost at +1 their normal strength can force A LOT of armor saves. Even TEQ are taking 10 armour saves from a 10 man unit, and probably losing a couple to fusion guns in the shooting phase. I would run a bigger unit than 10 myself. Check out my double avatar list comp entry for how I think avatars should be used

[Cavalier]

Unless you are running into the Skyhammer/Drop Pod Centurions there are very few lists that can Alpha-Strike an Avatar and Wraithknight turn 1.

I don't think you need a pure foot list to utilize the Avatar. With just a trio of units Scorpions, a Wraithknight, Avatar you can dominate the mid-field with very good close-combat units.

I also think you're under-estimating Striking Scorpions, especially in conjunction with the Avatar. With their resilience in cover, you're ability to get them basically anywhere mid-field, their excellent hammer of wrath attacks, and Strength 5 when in proximity to the Avatar, in addition to the power of the Exarch make them a perfect compliment to the Avatar.

That being said Scorpions, Banshees, or Wraithblades all make a great compliment to the Avatar. Each requires finesse to get into CC, but I think its something Eldar players need to utilize at least in part in the current game.

[Lyonic]

So i bought and avatar and 2 units of wraith blades because of this threat xD i have enough painting to last me over a year!!

[haunt]

Effective??? I utilized him in a min-max CAD army of Wraith-axes/shield x3, WL, WK x2, Avatar.

Talking about my opponent was having fun shooting at my army till turn 2, when he realized how fast was my army even while on foot. Game ended on his turn, top of turn 4. I was killing or making units run a solid 4 per full turn.

[Cavalier]

@Lyonic- Nice! I'm running the big man and some Wraithblades, Wraithlord on Saturday. I'll make sure to post some info here on how he performs.

@Haunt- Hell yeah. Eldar-zilla is back, and Wraithblades add a whole new dimension it. Nice build, I'd love to try that myself.

[waylander1983]

 I play an ulthwe themed eldar list, so lots of guardians on foot a seer council 2 wraithlords and an avatar to hold it all together. without the avatar the list wouldn't work. i roll my powers on telepathy for my farseers and pretty much every time get invisibility on at least 1 of them, cast it on the avatar and hes pretty much unstoppable!

[Wyldhunt]

I play an ulthwe themed eldar list, so lots of guardians on foot a seer council 2 wraithlords and an avatar to hold it all together. without the avatar the list wouldn't work. i roll my powers on telepathy for my farseers and pretty much every time get invisibility on at least 1 of them, cast it on the avatar and hes pretty much unstoppable!

Aren't most things that can clear tarpits pretty much unstoppable with invisibility?

[Lyonic]

Hey, i really cant wait to try out 10 wraithblades with Eldrad, a farseer and a spiritseer thrown in for good measure. Invisiblity is one thing but there are so many ripe fruits to pick from the trees i have access too. Farseer takes Tele, eldrad takes divination, spiritseer runes of battle. Ofc ill roll them all until i get invis first i think invis + fortune should do the trick xD

will have to pay a battlefocus tax as rolling to run on battlefocus is just.. So out this season! Im looking forward to building the models as they loom really nice but was thinking of a blue flamed avatar