Topic: Psyfleman vs. 'Rainman' Dreads

[Galef]

There was a post a while back about 3 Psyfleman vs. 2 Ven Psyfleman, but since the last post in it was early Dec, I will start this one to discuss the 'Rainman' Dread.

I think we can all agree that 2x TL Autocannons is the better loadout for Heavy Dreads (vs. TL Auto/Assault cannon, hereby refered to as 'Rainman').  However, with the additional BS of the Venerable, I think the Rainman loadout is a great option.

So basically I would like to discuss 2 things:

A) 2x TL Auto vs. TL Auto/Assault on Venerable Dreads

B) 3x Psyfleman Dreads vs. 2x Ven Rainman Dreads
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A) Due to the increased BS of the Ven, twin-linking is almost unnecessary.  So I feel this becomes an issue of range.  With the Rainman, you lose 2 shots at long range, but gain 2 at mid-range vs. the Psyfleman.  The Psycannon also has better odds against almost every target, not only because of increased shots, but rending helps vs. AV14.

There is plenty more to discuss, but I will leave it there for now.

B) 3 Psyflemans cost 405pts, 2 Ven Rainmans cost 390.  So for 15 pts more, you get 1 more model and the abilty to shoot at 3 different targets.  Total shots per turn: 12.  With the Rainman Dreads, you are still getting 12 shots per turn, but you must get within range to do so.  While this can be a downside, their increased durabilty almost nullifies this as getting close is no problem.

I am torn between which of these option I like better, but that is why I am posting.  Now I would like to hear from you guys, cheers

[Prophecy]

I just feel that giving a Ven dread the Rain man upgrade is unwise. With the TL AC Heavy dread I dont need to walk forwards or backwards I just exist to kill at almost any range. The Ven dread though needs to do a bit of dancing and once you get that close you are going to need something a bit more intimidating than 2 extra shots to keep a squad of infantry from assaulting you. I think the Psy ammo assault cannon Ven dread with CC wpn and heavy flamer is the way to go. Sure you lose some shots but a Ven dread has so much potential other than just shooting. At that point you can use templates and 2d6 face punching.

The Ven dread was meant to be a "do it all well" kind of machine. While the heavy version really does need to just putz around and shoot whatever it sees.

[MortVader83]

 First off, it really depends on what the rest of the list looks like. What is supporting these Dreads in the backfield or as they advance? With low body count in GK armies we have to make sure synergy is there. As for the Ven. "Rainman", it has had a lackluster bat rep with me. Unless I put it in a SR or outflank it, it gets targeted heavily. Because let's face it, it will tear through stuff and our opponents know it. It's ability to kill is undeniable, and the venerable rule can let it shrug off a couple of hits, but just running it up midfield will see it dead. Now outflanking it with GS is good, but if the situation calls for making stuff scoring it won't matter much since you can't mix up the GS. You can run it behind a Rhino/RB for cover, which also good as it provides a support unit to help back up the Dread and keep it from getting tarpitted. If you put it in a SR it poses a huge threat (SR+Dread+Infantry cargo) and will be heavily targeted. But this is also very very killy. The bird will probably die, but the Dread provides awsome fire support to termies/purifiers/pal. Wiping out transports or thinning large mobs. Also with it that close to the enemy lines it has a good chance of being able to claim/contest objectives. While the 3 Psyfleman Dreads can provide all the same fire-support while sitting comfortably and safely in cover. I try to capatalize on a Venerables increase in both BS & WS by keeping the doomfist and either plasma cannon or psybolted assault cannon on it though. The str10 doomfist will ruin most tanks fast, while the guns take care of the infantry threats.

[Galef]

Great responses, thanx.

Most of my experience and intent is based on having a combat-squaded Paladin unit with Psycannons advancing in front of the Dreads, thus minimized the possibility of the Dread getting into CC.

I didn't think about outflanking them.  Definetly food for thought.

[spiny echidna]

Please excuse the interruption

What is "GS?"
("outflanking it with GS")

Thanks,

[MortVader83]

GS=Grand Strategy. Grand Masters have this ability, and by far it is my favorite GK feature. I run a dual GM list w/6 Dreadnoughts at 2k+. Up to six scoring/scouting/or rerolling rs to wound Dreads is so fun. Half the time it falls on it's face. The other half it eats everything alive. Dreadnoughts are the actual reason I play GKs. I have owned GK models for years, butthe army never truly interested me. Now I can field up to six *woohoo* w/o having to play smurfs. I just added two more to my collection, bringing me to 14. Sorry a bit off topic I know lol.

[Azonalanthious]

I think we can all agree that 2x TL Autocannons is the better loadout for Heavy Dreads (vs. TL Auto/Assault cannon, hereby refered to as 'Rainman').

Actually, I personally don't think that even that is a given.  The assault/auto variant even on a non-ven dread out performs the psyfleman against almost all possible non-vehicle targets (a few insta-kill possibilities for the psyfleman but thats more or less it), as well as AV 13 and AV 14 vehicles and more or less ties vs AV 12.  The psyfleman only offers clearly superior performance against AV 10 and 11.  If, of course, you have range.  However, my personal experience is that on a normal sized game board (4x4 up through 6x8 locally -- the 6x8 starts to push this point a bit, but doesn't quite break it yet), the effective 30" range once you take movement into account is sufficient that you can almost always range to a juicy target, while the longer psyfleman range often fails to come into play due to lack of line of sight or simply the limitations of the board size.  The flip side however is that the assault variant is far more likely to NEED that 6" movement to get their range, which cuts into your tactical positioning options, the result being that its far less likely to get a reliable cover save unlike the 'stick in cover at deployment and leave it there' psyfleman.  Its also in theory more vulnerable to assault, but careful positioning and not closing the range more then you actually need to can go a long ways towards minimizing that particular risk.  But the end result is that the psyfleman tends to be more durable.  But another point to look at is that an assault variant is far more likely to say near the rest of your units, giving the benefit of reinforce aegis.  It may not matter against all foes, but against some that's very useful.

[MortVader83]

 Actually to threaten av13+ on the Rainman variant you need the same ap roll of 6, and even then you only have a 66% chance of penetraring. Now granted that's still a better chance than just glancing, it's still unreliable.  In most my lists (competitive)I only run 2 regular Psyfleman Dreads. Granted these usually stay in cover or on a home objective with a vindicare and SS to provide support. But in a pinch vs psychic heavy armies (ie. Eldar, Tyrants, etc.) one marches up with another SS+RB or paladins to provide the reinforced aegis. With carefull movements you still get cover and surviveability. This then gives the added bonus of giving you the opportunity of side armor shots or better infantry shots.

[Azonalanthious]

Actually to threaten av13+ on the Rainman variant you need the same ap roll of 6, and even then you only have a 66% chance of penetraring.

Incorrect.  AV 13, an assault cannon with psy ammo has a 100% pen rate on a roll of 6 (7+6+rending roll which is a min of 1 always = 14+), not 66%, so matches the autocannon.  It is only 66% on a six vs AV 14, but the auto-cannon is 0% there.  And the fact that it is 4 shots means it is overall more effective against such targets.  12% more accuracy does not beat 100% more firepower on one arm, and we are looking at autocannons on the off arms for both models, so that side doesn't enter into it.

[MortVader83]

 Sorry, meant to say 66% chance vs AV14. Anyways when you do tge mat on a Rainman you get a lucky average of 1pen and 1glance(maybe) on the AV14. Slim chances even. This makes it unreliable, even though it has the chance to do it. It's using ill-suited weapons vs heavy armor. However a psyfleman will reliably disarm/disable one, leaving it vulnerable for something more suited for the task. Like Vindicares(why you wouldn't shoot it with him first though if you use him...), MMs, or hammerhanded DHs. In the end the Psyfleman Dread is more versatile in what it does. More reliable in it's redundancy of twin-linking too. It can stay out of trouble easier, threaten a greater area, and generally draw more nerd-rage inspired fire that it leaves our other units to go about killing stuff. On a side note, it looks better too. The Rainman does tend to look a bit goofy and lopsided lol. I know it doesn't matter in game terms though.

[High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights]

I'm more for the rainman anyday, I'm sick of seeing psyfleman dreads everywhere, I like something a little more effective, and less common, and let's face it, 6 shots is better than 4 when your planning to attack any unit, this is before we even take rending into account, and as the GK are a very in your face play style then choosing the superior firepower of the rainman also ensures its moving forwards with the troops, who of course require the superior anti psyker boost, not to mention its improved versatility vs soft skinned troops such as orks, tau, guard and nids (although psyfleman dreads are better vs tyranid warriors.) Therefore my vote is thoroughly for the rainman

[HORDE]

Is it just me that likes assault cannon+psybolts and doomfist dread?

I find the improved aegis actually being near my troops is incredibly helpful.

[Azonalanthious]

Sorry, meant to say 66% chance vs AV14. Anyways when you do tge mat on a Rainman you get a lucky average of 1pen and 1glance(maybe) on the AV14. Slim chances even. This makes it unreliable, even though it has the chance to do it. It's using ill-suited weapons vs heavy armor. However a psyfleman will reliably disarm/disable one, leaving it vulnerable for something more suited for the task. Like Vindicares(why you wouldn't shoot it with him first though if you use him...), MMs, or hammerhanded DHs

Really take a look at what you said here.

Assuming BS4:

Psyfleman will average .58 glancing hits.
Multi melta will average .18 pens, .09 glancing hits
Daemonhammer, assuming L9 for hammerhand w/ no psychic defense, 3 attacks on the charge, and 6" movement will average .41 pens, .20 glancing hits
"Rainman"* will average .29 pens, .43 glancing.

So the only one on that list that beats the "Rainman"* vs AV 14 is the Daemonhammer.  And then only in the ration of glance to pen, not total damage rolls, and if you toss in psychic defense disrupting hammer hand or a vehicle moving more then 6" (which, given the nature of a land raider's job as an assault vehicle and power of the machine spirit this is quite likely) the advantage shifts solidly to the "Rainman"*.  Plus the whole 24" range vs 0" range thing -- 24" may not be a huge range, but its a heck of a lot more then 0".  Now yes, a vindcator turbo penetration is better.  But comparing its effectiveness to the best anti-tank weapon in the game and one with which you can only ever have 1 in the entire list is a little bit of a draconian standard, don't you agree?  Leaving turbo-pen out of things for now, the only ranged weapon in a GK's list more effective against AV 14 then a psycannon (equivalent in this case) is two psycannons.

* Did I mention I can't say I much like that name?  Anywho, moving on...

HORDE: Nope, that's my preferred config too, I've just been commenting on the Rainman since that was supposed to be the thread focus.