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Author Topic: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question  (Read 3355 times)

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Offline Greg23

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Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« on: January 4, 2012, 08:00:47 PM »
Here's something that's making me scratch my head.

Though special characters, neither Grand Master Mordrak nor Justicar Thawn are true independent characters.  They are dedicated to the units they are attached to/deployed with, Thawn with Grey Knight Terminators and Mordrak with Ghost Knights.

Both Thawn and Mordrak are psykers in their own right.  Do their psychic levels stack with the Brotherhood of Psykers for an additional psychic level of mastery?  The restrictions against independent characters for psychic powers or nemesis force weapons doesn't apply to either Mordrak or Thawn.

That would make Mordrak and Thawn much more powerful that what their statlines suggests when deployed with their retinue.

Offline MortVader83

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #1 on: January 4, 2012, 08:48:56 PM »
They don't stack and give the unit an extra mastery level. Basically they use their powers as if they were the justicar. In Thawn's case he is a justicar, however he does.have mastery lvl 2, so the unit could hammerhand and use the force weapons insta-kill ability. Hope this helps.
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Offline Galef

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 01:11:52 AM »
Actually, their masteries would stack, however, you cannot think of it that way.

Mordrak & Thawn have the special rule "Mastery level" which allows them to cast a certain number of powers.

Their respective units have the rule "Brotherhood of Psykers" which allows them to cast 1 power.  BoP also has a few restrictions on who cast, who takes Perils & not being able to use the LD of IC's that have joined the unit.

Each rule is different and stand for themselves.  Since Mordrak & Thawn do not have BoP, they are excluded from their units psychic abilities, and vice versa.

So Thawn could cast Hammerhand & Activate 'his' force weapon, while his unit can either cast Hammerhand again OR activate their force weapons.
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Offline MortVader83

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 01:58:28 AM »
 Thawn is the unit's Justicar, you buy him as the upgraded Justicar. So for him he would be the one casting powers for the BoP rule. As for Mordrak, i'll have to reread my codex when I get home. I'm sure though he is an upgrade character also, so he'd take the place of a unit's Justicar.
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Offline Galef

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 03:15:22 AM »
It doesn't matter if they are their unit's Justicars, they do not have BoP.

Bop even states that Perils is taken on non-character models in the unit, thus excluding Thawn & Mordrak.

Basically, BoP states that the unit can use 1 power
PML states that a character can use X powers

Nowhere does it say that a unit's power would count as one of a character's alloted powers.

Otherwise, you could argue that a Librarian joined to a unit could only ever use 1 power per turn, since the unit he is with is limited to only using 1 power.
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Offline spiny echidna

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 12:27:29 AM »
I agree with Galef for the most part, at least with Mordrak.

With Thawn the squad would use his Leadership and he would be the one casting the squads hammerhand. Key here is Thawn is a "Character" not "Independent Character."  Under BoP it says that a squad uses the leadership of it's Knight of the Flame or Justicar (Thawn), but never the Ld of an "Independant Character."  Thawn is the Justicar and not an "Independent" character. The fact that he lacks BoP is irrelevent to the rules.  He still casts the squads power.  He as a character with a "Pyschic Mastery Level" of 2 gets to additionally cast 2 powers. As under Psychic Mastery Level it says the PML is "how many psychic powers a character can use per a turn." BoP gives the squad a power and the Justicar (Thawn) casts it using his Ld and suffering Perils of the Warp should it fail.  He also gets to cast his own 2.

With Mordrak he is treated as an "upgrade character." It says nothing about him being a Knight of Flame or Justicar.  He used to be a Grand Master...  SO no reasoning in BoP to suggest he casts their power.

Anyhow that's my reading of it.

Edit: Grammar
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:48:52 AM by spiny echidna »
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 02:38:47 PM »
I disagree, I believe that the character, with his own psyker mastery levels can use his own powers, and one for BoP, this is because the squad he is bought for, along with himself (all GKs have BoP unless they are a unit of 1), so as mordrak and thawn have the exact same character definition, because either way, they will have the same ruling.
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Offline Greg23

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »
I tend to agree with Spiney Enchilada.

BoP effectively makes the models in a unit a single psyker that can cast one psychic ability.
Thawn and Mordrak have the Mastery Level rule, making them their own psykers independent of their retinue.  They can cast their own psychic powers independent of BoP through the PML rule, but they are not independent characters.

When deployed in their retinue, both Mordrak and Thawn are part of the unit, so the restrictions against independent characters do not apply to them when it comes to psychic power restrictions or targeting in hth.

So, RAW for things like Hammerhand and activating Force Weapons may give a blanket for the entire unit all at once as long as there is a single psyker within the unit that can cast the psychic ability, whether through BoP or PLM, the independent character restriction being circumvented.  I will have to double check the exact wording of the psychic powers.

This would make both Thawn and Mordrak quite powerful when deployed in their retinue.  Especially so since their respective dedicated retinues has access to Chapter Banners.

Hammer Hand + Chaper Banner auto-cast NFW = Ninjahammer Mordrak.  damn, that's nasty.

Offline MortVader83

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 02:50:18 AM »
 It says in the BoP entry that units use their Justicar or KotF if they are alive to use psychic powers. If Thawn is the unit's Justicar, then that unit can use 2 psychic powers per turn while he is alive. He isn't an IC, so the rules for their NFW activation doesn't effect him. Anyways, having 3 power uses is pointless on a unit that can only use two different powers. As for Mordrak he is part of the unit as an upgrade character, he however isn't an upgrade for any one model specifically, so I'd say he would have his 2 uses and the unit their one use. Does it make him more powerful? Not a whole lot really
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 09:03:50 AM »
But mordrak it technically an upgrade character, he is no different to a justicar or keeper of the flame, as a character model is either independant or upgrade, no middle ground, and as they have their own individual psyker mastery level, this means that Thawn can use hammerhand through himself and the unit using BoP and his PML, and then go onto use his second PML to activate the units force weapons (such is the overlap of these two rules)

If your argument is to say mordrak isn't an units character, I direct you immidiately to his unit type which is infantry (character)
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Offline spiny echidna

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:27 PM »
Mordak is a unit character.  BUT the codex never says anywhere that a unit's character casts BoP spells.  It says the Justicar, or KotF does.  Mordak is niether.  Thawn is a Justicar, so the 2 characters in question are effectively different as far as BoP is concerned.
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Offline Greg23

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 11:22:10 PM »
Neither the Justicar nor the KotF casts the psychic power.  It is the unit that casts the psychic power via BoP.  The unit uses the Justicar's/KotF's Ld if he is still around, an exception to psychic rules.  The Justicar/KotF takes the first hit if PotW strikes, but the unit with BoP still has access to its psychic powers, even if the Justicar/KotF goes away.

For Justicar Thawn's retinue (GTK), he take's the hit of PotW, RAW.  The good news is that if he resurrects afterwards, Thawn is still a L2 Psyker on his own.  And the unit still has BoP with access to one power per turn.

For Mordrak's retinue (GK), there is no Justicar/KotF.  RAW, a random  non-Mordrak model takes the PotW hit from a psychic power cast through BoP.

For psychic powers, Ghost Knights (GK) and Grey Knight Termies (GKT) have access to all of two, Hammerhand and activating NFW.  These are powers Thawn and Mordrak already have.  And the exact wording of these powers "all models in the unit/all of its force weapons" indicate that both Thawn and Mordrak benefit even if either power is cast via BoP.  The independent character restrictions of NFW is circumvented for both Thawn and Mordrak.

So the benefit is that Thawn and Mordrak gain access to Hammerhand or NFW activation without burning their own PML activation via their retinue's BoP rule.  This becomes more apparent when the Brotherhood Banner comes into effect, giving an auto-cast power on the NFW.

I also believe, RAW, that the reverse is also true.  If  Mordrak or Thawn activate their NFW or Hammerhand via their PML, the entire retinue benefits.  And the Brotherhood Banner can let Mordrak and Thawn auto-activate NFW.  But Mordrak and Thawn will actually have to wound with their own hits first, neither Mordrak nor Thawn can activate another retinue's model's wounding hit because neither Thawn nor Mordrak have the BoP rule.

What I don't belief is that GK through BoP casting Mordrak's Psychic Communion.  As a single psyker, the GK in Mordrak's retinue do not have the Psychic Communion power, so, as a single psyker, it (the GKs of Mordrak's retinue counting as a single psyker) cannot cast that power.

Otherwise we would see abuses like L3 PML Librarians in units casting 4 powers a turn and letting the Justicars/KotF take the PotW hit.

What I do believe, through the RAW, both Thawn's and Mordrak's retinue have a legal double opportunity to either activate Hammerhand or activate NFW, once through BoP and once through PML.  This can benefit these units in the face of anti-psychic tactics.

Ugh, the legalese is  making my head spin.  I wish GW would FAQ this, but RAW, this is what I see.

Offline spiny echidna

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Re: Grand Master Mordrak + Justicar Thawn question
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 07:03:23 PM »
Very clearly stated Greg.  I agree with your reading of the rules.
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