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Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #20 on: April 1, 2010, 07:55:24 AM »
I tend to think it is more them just being slightly squimish about all the whole thing. Unlike the imperium were humans have been indoctated into a cult of hatred for Xenos and those who break the Emperor's will,the Tau are brought up in a climate of life being special and killing being a grim neccesity rather then something which is glorious, quite similar to us at the moment. So it's more when they have to directly strangel someone they feel uneasy about it as compared to pressing buttons to inflict long range death.

Offline Benis

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #21 on: April 1, 2010, 08:07:21 AM »
Yes, but Human beings also evolved to beat each other around the head with pointy metal sticks (Ref: Up till 200 years ago), and we got rather good at it.

I would say that we are far more evolved to throw spears and rocks to hunt and ward of enemies than we are at beating each other around the head with metal sticks, that is more of technology than evolution: am I a better fighter than a human born ten thousand years ago just because we have spent ten thousand years beating each other over the head? No, but I could get a gun and shot the poor man.

Tau doesn't seem to lack that element in their evolution and neither does their history suggest such a lack so I think we again get back to a basic comparison of physique.

I tend to think it is more them just being slightly squimish about all the whole thing.

The psychology element is interesting but surely such squeamishness would be battered out of them by both training and actual experience? We humans are also naturally squeamish about this but can be taught/indoctrinated into doing it without much hesitation, surely the Fire Warriors go through similar training?

Offline Sayt

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #22 on: April 1, 2010, 04:29:36 PM »
IMO, it would be more cultural than psychological.  The Tau wage war from afar, they disdain close combat, as a race and as a culture.  Which, conincidentally, is where rouhgly half the Tau's semi-dislike for the Kroot (The other half being the unrepentant cannibalism), in that they're built for, and relatively good at, close combat.

Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #23 on: April 1, 2010, 05:34:15 PM »
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The psychology element is interesting but surely such squeamishness would be battered out of them by both training and actual experience? We humans are also naturally squeamish about this but can be taught/indoctrinated into doing it without much hesitation, surely the Fire Warriors go through similar training?

Indeed we are. However I am trying to go for the idea of Tau being quite compareble to our standard infantry men (In terms of psychological preperation) however when that is compared to the depths of hatred that the rest of the 40k universe has, it looks slightly less impressive. You know I imagine a imperial human actively hates xenos which is something I imagine a Tau doesn't. Similar to how most pampjlets for the armed forces talk about hatred not being useful to waging war and that a solider shouldn't let it get the best of him, a position which would be meet with complete disdain by the Imperium. 

Offline praetorian1

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #24 on: April 2, 2010, 04:38:15 AM »
Uhm, I've not seen it stated anywhere that Tau Technology is fragile.  In fact, if a lasgun shot a pulse rifle and a pulse rifle, the las gun would probably be rather worse for wear.

er i meant taking the weapons and using them rough, example taking a lasgun and bash it over a rock it would probably still work but would a pulse rifle, its not fragile just not as sturdy as other cruder weapons possibly

i think that's what i was getting at
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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #25 on: April 2, 2010, 02:42:07 PM »
Maybe the Tau are just clumsy when it comes to wielding hand to hand weapons!
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #26 on: April 2, 2010, 02:50:26 PM »
No indication of that so far. Kill Team mentions smooth and precise movements that the soldiers actually found slightly disturbing. Being naturally clumsy also wouldn't help with accurate long range fire either.
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Offline Trokair

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #27 on: April 5, 2010, 08:57:58 AM »
From my understanding of Tau fluff the weekends in hand to hand stems from several factor.

First is cultural, hand to hand is seen as primitive and savage unless it is ritualised (ethereal and there honour blades). Also as has been mentioned Tau are more like human today in terms of killing, eg. At range no problem, but close up it become more difficult for sociological reasons.

Second, early description of Tau eyesight always made me think of them as being chronically farsighted compared to average humans, so they can see great amount of detail in the distance, but thing with in a meter or so a slightly blurred compared to average humans, so when in hand to hand, where the struggle is quick it is harder for them to react successfully.

Thirdly, guardsmen are trained both in hand to hand and range, hence WS and BS of three, while Tau are only trained at range. With minimal hand to hand, only the basics as a necessary evil in case it comes to that. conscripts, which are portrait as humans that have not been really trained but just given a gun are about as good as Tau in hand to hand.

So between training, there eyesight and possibly other minor things like that and cultural issues it adds up. Also consider Tau trained under Farsight, they are as good as Gaurdsmen in hand to hand skill wise. So training certainly plays a role.
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Offline In_Theory

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #28 on: April 6, 2010, 06:47:55 PM »
I definitely recall something about their eyesight actually being a fair reason... it's not that they have bad eyesight, but their eyes focus and track better at range and up-close it gets a bit blurry and hard to track fast movements...

So the air caste pilots are perfect, since the only problems they would have it when they're within a few metres of another craft-- in which case they're about to crash or are doing some insane showing off.

Likewise, in close combat, the Tau have a difficult time reacting properly and thus are a bit clumsy... though they see and shoot perfectly at range.

The eyesight problems don't kick in until things are within stabbing distance, as even in game terms you can keep shooting an enemy until they're literally in your face.

Offline augustmanifesto

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #29 on: April 7, 2010, 12:27:23 AM »
Although some of my participation in the discussion forum would seem to contradict this, I think the best answers are usually the most simple  ;D

In this case, the simple answers (which have already been given) is the Tau's body type and culture/military training. The latter seems to be the strong explanation given that at least in the Old Tau codex, Farsight's Fire Warriors could have a weapon skill of 3 because of special, extensive hand to hand training undertaken to prepare them for battle against orks.

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Offline praetorian1

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #30 on: April 7, 2010, 02:28:49 AM »
well even training can over come natural disabilities

the eyesight explanation would make the most since to me, and i dislike mine altogether now :P

are there battle suits (not knowing of tau proper terms) different Int. and WS, would tech. help them with there vision problems at closer ranges
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #31 on: April 7, 2010, 02:46:30 AM »
They might help with the vision problem, but it wouldn't make up for the lifetime of just not being any good at reacting to fast moving, close ranged opponents.

It would be like giving someone who doesn't like tennis, rarely plays and doesn't put much effort into training some really high quality boots and expecting it to make them a skilled tennis player.  That same person on the other hand, might make an excellent rugby player.

Offline Bumbles

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #32 on: April 7, 2010, 06:49:54 PM »
I always liked the idea that the Tau looked out across the various battlefields and went "well those big green guys are fearsome in close quarters. Those spikey guys are monster close combatants. And those insects literally eat us if they get close enough. best just shoot them all. From a long way away".

They decided that getting to close to anything with a mouth, that was green or wore spikes on their clothes was a Bad Idea, so set about organising their armies so they didn't have to.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #33 on: April 9, 2010, 07:01:41 PM »
Hmm, I don't get that impression about them, though.  Most of their battle tactics are converted hunting tactics that they used in their tribal days.  I got the idea from reading Tau background that even 'back in the day' they chucked spears and shot bows at their prey, rather than try to get it with a hand spear or club.
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Offline lich

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2010, 01:28:04 AM »
Would this give you a good idea why?
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2010, 03:47:06 AM »
Well a decent idea is that their helmets are designed for long range firepower to make up for their poor eyesight. Its like trying to fight in close combat on a laptop screen of vision. No depth perception and all that. Technology can make up for the poor eyesight but not for the depth perception that comes from using a screen to look at things.


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Offline Benis

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2010, 04:12:41 AM »
Technology can make up for the poor eyesight but not for the depth perception that comes from using a screen to look at things.

I would be surprised if they don't simply use dual/split screens in their helmets to achieve a depth perception, it is not like it is highly advanced technology...

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2010, 04:39:46 AM »
Which doesn't change the fact that the eye itself has some compensatory mechanisms for depth perception (you can see the effect if you try using "split eye" technology. Remember reality isn't quite like a computer screen since our eyes automatically do a lot of seeing for us that a camera  lens cannot. Its like attempting to fight while wearing blinkers (the camera only looks forwards)


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Benis

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2010, 05:02:07 AM »
yes our current technology would have problems like the ones you describe but considering Tau technology and their persistent reliance on similar optical solutions (the set up on the helmets are very similar to the Battlesuits for example) I very much doubt that depth perception is a cause of problems for them.

I could see if the helmets contain some sort of support programme for ranged combat (helping the aim, noticing movements whatever) that could muck it up a bit in close combat but surely they would be able to quickly turn such programs off or even have them doing it automatically?

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2010, 05:04:17 AM »
Or you know. They haven't been able to solve that problem....

Remember just because they have "technology" doesn't mean they know everything about it.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

 


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