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Offline SeekingOne

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Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« on: June 20, 2017, 02:54:09 AM »
Now that all 8th edition rules are officially out, it seems reasonable to have a new thread to discuss all the actual things about our newly redesigned CWE army. So, with Irisado's blessing, I thought that I'd go ahead and start one.

Please post here your thoughts on performance of individual units and army builds, new tactics, missions, enemies and, most importantly, learning points from actual games of 8th edition. We're all at the base of learning curve now (so to speak), so basically any experience of 8th edition that any of us can share would be interesting and helpful.

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Let me start by sharing the last two 2000 pts games I played this past Weekend. I faced two very different Tau lists: game 1 was vs an army with lots of infantry (fire warriors, breachers, kroot, even kroot hounds) supported with several Railheads and broadsides; game 2 was vs an army of 2 Stormsurges, 2 Riptides and Shadowsun (literally 5 models on the table!).

My list looked like this:
Quote
Avatar of Khaine
Eldrad Ulthran

3 x 10 Guardian Defenders
5 Dark Reapers
2 x Hemlocks
Fire Prism
Wraithknight w/Sword and 2 starcannons

It was essentially just a bunch of units that I wanted to test slapped together. However, this unit combination worked surprisingly well, as I effectively tabled the first army by turn 5 and the second one by turn 4.

What happened was that my melee WK charged straight at the heart of the enemy position with Eldrad and Avatar trailing close behind it. Eldrad kept WK Fortuned at all times, and WK effectively tanked for Eldrad and Avatar as they are both characters and so couldn't be targeted. Combined assault of WK and Avatar is pretty much unstoppable, while fortuned WK can take a lot of punishment and keep going (in both games by the end it was below half wounds but still standing).

Quick learning points:

1) Guardians still die.
I was super-happy with the new AP rules which made 5+ save meaningful, and in these games at first I was impressed with Guardians really being less squishy than before - but, once the first excitement passed, I realised that they are still squishy. If fielded on foot, they are there really just for the purpose of making your opponents feel good because they killed something.

2) Fire Prism is just as totally useless as before, perhaps even more so. It's damage output is pathetic for a 170+ pts battle tank. Even just a basic Wave Serpent with 3 shuricannons would've done more.

3) Eldrad is a fantastic psyker, feels like the most efficient choice of a Farseer on foot. The fact that he knows and can cast all 3 powers per turn (or 2 powers + Smite), combined with nice bonuces to cast, is great and well worth the points.

4) Dark Reapers are deadly but super-vulnerable. In game 2 I made a mistake of deploying them in range of several SMS systems, and they were gone in 1 shooting phase, despite being in cover.

5) WK is good, but in order to live long enough to actually justify its point cost it needs both an Invulerable save AND Fortune. Even with just one of that it won't last.

EDIT:
6) Hemlocks are very good; this is kind of obvious even on paper, and in their case practice confirms theory 100%.

7) Spirit Stones proved to be a surprisingly good upgrade. Initially I kind of dismissed it on the grounds of 6+ save being way too weak to seriously bother with it. However, it seems that in practice, when a model has as many as 12+ wounds, 6+ save still happens to go off 2-3 times before the model is killed. And that might mean an extra turn of life, or even an extra turn of firing at full capacity.
With its modest cost, Spirit Stone is an auto-include for me now for every Wave Serpent, and any other vehicle that I expect to take fire.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 08:47:06 AM by SeekingOne »
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »
I am slightly worried about the wraithknight now... I am not sure that it is worth it's points. For the same amount I can pick up a flyer wing which gives me +1 cp.

I will definitely have to try it out though.

Thanks for your observations and thoughts
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 12:21:15 PM »
Guardians live a lot longer now, inceasing the unit size actually makes them slightly tougher.

Most skimmers are overcosted, except for the Wave serpent which is awesome.
Vehicle upgrades(not weapons) are OTOH undercosted.

Psykers are bland and unreliable, even Eldrad who got a giant nerf.
Sure he was powerful but his staff was definitely not the issue.

Aspect warriors are weak, but if you can focus on a few aspects and bring their corresponding Phoenix Lords they should work OK.

Vehicle upgrades are all good now, especially for the serpent which can take both spirit stones and vectored engines, which makes them 1/6 + 1/(7-BS)  % more durable. Against a marine shooting at it, it's 42% tougher, and I'm not even considering the serpent shield which reduces the damage from a lascannon from 3.5 to 2,67.
So against a lascannon (shot by a marine standing still) the serpent essentially has 21.5 wounds. Which makes it about as tough as 2 rhinos.

Edit: Star enginges are perfect for tripple shurican serpents while CTM are for heavier guns.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:23:25 PM by Fenris »
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Offline WhiteRaven

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 12:34:35 PM »
My experience with the Wraithknight is that he is worth his points (even when there is no Invul save + fortune available).

He is not the overwhelming pinnacle of points efficiency he was in 7th, but he does a number of things within the context of the list that are tough to find elsewhere.

Examples:
In the Eternal War: Relic mission, he is able to grab the relic and not become pinned down in assault.

He reduces your drop count significantly while still being in and around the offensive output of the units you'd likely replace him with.

The Heavy Wraithcannons & Suncannon are among the most efficient Eldar weapons and can only be found on him.

It is refreshing that there are valid lists and reasons to both include and exclude him from a battle.  Personally, I feel the Sword variant loses out significantly over either ranged option.  While a guarantee'd 6 wounds is nice, the 15pt savings between the sword + invul and 2 Heavy Wraithcannons + Titantic Wraithbone Fists is not worth the sacrifice in offensive output.

Most armies will have tools to focus him down regardless of saves, few armies will be able to obliterate him in a turn or two without getting some lucky rolls.  Eldar are in a great spot where your enemy gets to pick what kills them...focus wraithknight and everything else gets to live and wreck...focus those reapers/banshee's/serpents instead...wraithkni ght gets to live and wreck.  This edition isn't about walking away unscathed...lots of things are going to die.  This edition will be about making sure the tools you have left on the table get into a position to do their jobs...and Eldar have lots of different tools to bring to bear and almost all are good in the path they were designed for.


Later,
Whiteraven

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 01:18:22 PM »
Most skimmers are overcosted, except for the Wave serpent which is awesome.
Agree

Quote
Vehicle upgrades(not weapons) are OTOH undercosted.
Can't agree with this. Expensive vehicle upgrades quickly become useless due to increasing the vehicle's value beyond its utility. Spirit Stones might be worth 12-13 pts at most, others are priced well. CTM is all but useless effectively, even 5 pts is too much for it.

Quote
Psykers are bland and unreliable, even Eldrad who got a giant nerf.
Sure he was powerful but his staff was definitely not the issue.
Again, don't think I understand your logic here. In my books, in the previous codex Eldrad certainly wasn't powerful at all. He had a cost of two generic seers on foot, yet taking 2 generic seers on foot was strictly better in all respects than taking single Eldrad.
Now he got cheaper and much better - he has good bonuses to cast, good enough in fact to make him the only reliable psyker in the book, and the fact that he knows and can cast all 3 powers makes him super flexible. Imho, he's very good now.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are indeed very unreliable and overall hugely overcosted (particularly jetbike ones).
 
Aspect warriors are weak, but if you can focus on a few aspects and bring their corresponding Phoenix Lords they should work OK.

Quote
Vehicle upgrades are all good now, especially for the serpent which can take both spirit stones and vectored engines, which makes them 1/6 + 1/(7-BS)  % more durable. Against a marine shooting at it, it's 42% tougher, and I'm not even considering the serpent shield which reduces the damage from a lascannon from 3.5 to 2,67.
So against a lascannon (shot by a marine standing still) the serpent essentially has 21.5 wounds. Which makes it about as tough as 2 rhinos.
Don't forget that VE forces you to advance which cuts down the effectiveness of mounted shuricannons by 33%, which is a big penalty. IF VE didn't incur any penalties, it would've been seriously undercosted, but the way it is, it's just fine.

Quote
So against a lascannon (shot by a marine standing still) the serpent essentially has 21.5 wounds. Which makes it about as tough as 2 rhinos.
Which it absolutely appropriate, considering the cost and relative significance of transports in the context of each respective army.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 01:54:39 PM »
@SeekingOne: Spiritstones for 15 points would still be well worth the investment. Most tanks that can take it already cost abut 150 points, so it's 10% cost increase for a 33% durability increase.

Regarding Eldrad, well not only did eldar lose half of it's powers 2/3 powers were nerfed. Guide used to make ranged weapons twinlinked, now it's only a re-roll. Even if it does succeed it's still not as good as FRFSRF, and you risk both perils and DTW.
Fortune is utter crap and is only worthwhile to cast on the wraithknight.

Eldrad used to be a psyker of lvl 5, higher than anyone in the galaxy including Ahriman and that 2 headed flying thing.
His staff was at least as potent as the Avatars weapon, and now it's merely a force weapon, with no use since the compulsory whichblade is just as powerful.
He is now merely a big bag of wounds that sounds scary since he can use magic, which is mostly just psychological.

Shuriken cannons having a 33% penalty is still alot better than, for example, Starcannons which have a 100% penalty. And it's actually only a 25% penalty, unless you threw guide on the thing.

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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 03:20:21 PM »
@Fenris
@SeekingOne: Spiritstones for 15 points would still be well worth the investment. Most tanks that can take it already cost abut 150 points, so it's 10% cost increase for a 33% durability increase.
Well, mathematically, an extra save that has 17% chance to succeed cannot possibly lead to a 33% durability increase. It's just that, a 17% or 1.17 times durability increase, plain and simple. Per Lanchester square formulas, it justifies sqrt(1.17)=1.08 times increase of point cost, which is roughly 11 pts for a 143 pt vehicle.
In fact, even SS is priced quite appropriately.

Quote
Regarding Eldrad, well not only did eldar lose half of it's powers 2/3 powers were nerfed. Guide used to make ranged weapons twinlinked, now it's only a re-roll. Even if it does succeed it's still not as good as FRFSRF, and you risk both perils and DTW.
Fortune is utter crap and is only worthwhile to cast on the wraithknight.

Eldrad used to be a psyker of lvl 5, higher than anyone in the galaxy including Ahriman and that 2 headed flying thing.
Sorry, which of the old codexes you're referring to?! It must be 2nd edition which I'm not very familiar with, because none of the others had anything like that. At least certainly not the 7th edition one.
Doom has not changed, Guide has not changed - it has practically the same wording as it did in 7th. Guide never said anything about weapons becoming twin-linked IIRC, it always was "reroll failed rolls to hit". Fortune was nerfed pretty badly, that's true. Mind War is gone - but imho Smite is easily like 10 times better than Mind War ever was.
Also, Eldrad level 5?! You actually made me get the old codex and re-check that :) In 7th edition he was level 4.

Quote
His staff was at least as potent as the Avatars weapon, and now it's merely a force weapon, with no use since the compulsory whichblade is just as powerful.
He is now merely a big bag of wounds that sounds scary since he can use magic, which is mostly just psychological.
His staff was good in 4th and 5th edition, but in 6th and 7th it was but a useless ap3 toothpick. Now it doesn't wound on 2+ anymore, but it has -2ap which makes it still better than witchblade against most targets. Still not as good as in 4th/5th, granted, but decent enough.
With all due respect, your disapproval of him feels a bit irrational to me :)

Quote
Shuriken cannons having a 33% penalty is still alot better than, for example, Starcannons which have a 100% penalty. And it's actually only a 25% penalty, unless you threw guide on the thing.
Well, it depends on what you take for 100% :)
Anyway, again per Lanchester square formulas, a 143 pts vehicle that starts hitting on 4+ instead of 3+ deserves to become ~19 pts cheaper for that.
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"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 05:38:35 PM »
Examples:
In the Eternal War: Relic mission, he is able to grab the relic and not become pinned down in assault.


Only INFANTRY units can pick up the relic.


So, go to options for a generalist lists.

Guardians - screen units really, but their speed and weapon does make them a threat but are point cost effective.
Scorpion - great all round close combat unit.
Spears - great at hunting low to medium T, stuff including fliers.
Hemlock - great fire soaker with solid damage output.
Dark Reapers - great all round option, can smack even high T targets and deal with Low T units.




Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 06:22:08 PM »
@SeekingOne:
I guess GW used that Lanchester formula then. My first assumption was also wrong though, since I misread that spirit stones is rolled for each damage but instead are rolled for against each wound.
That Lanchester formula still does not apply here, since you roll the dice 12(or 13) times, that allows you 2 successes.
If you roll against D2 wounds you only roll 6 dice, but that successful die saves you 2 wounds.
Those wounds that succeed you will get to roll saves for again.

So it's actually 1/6 + 1/6^2 +1/6^3.....1/6^n where n goes to infinity. Which should normalize somewhere around 24.99999999 so lets say 25%.


Concerning Eldrad yes he was powerful in 2nd ed, but he was still powerful in 4th and 5th ed. Where he knew all 5 eldar powers and could cast all of them despite being ML4, due to his staff. His staff was still good in 6th and 7th ed, where it was a whichblade and powerweapon combined. Now it's only a glorified force axe.
His spiritlink is just awful, and his resistance to the warp cut in half.
Meanwhile a single apothecary can deny any of his powers by just have luckier dices, which is basically a 4+ and that is after he succeeded to cast, which in itself is roughly only a 50/50 chance. Why would I pay points for an aura, that forces me to risk perils while only also working 25% of the time.

A plasma gun is actually more reliable.


Regarding the to hit rolls hitting on 4+ instead of 3+ reduces your hit chance from 67% to 50% (17 percentages) yes, but you will still hit 25 percent less. (The difference between "percentages" and "percent").
A triple shurican serpent that advances will get 4.5 hits.
A normal ditto will get 6 hits.

4.5/6 = 75% (not 83%) those tripple cannons cost XX points and 25% of that is 9.
so a discount of 9 points for that gear would be fine.

Being hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is the same calculation. However against BS4+ or BS5+ this is more powerful.

If you can taunt your opponent to shoot at least 1 brightlance or more expensive gun(s), it will have paid off.


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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 06:43:58 PM »
Meanwhile a single apothecary can deny any of his powers by just have luckier dices, which is basically a 4+ and that is after he succeeded to cast, which in itself is roughly only a 50/50 chance. Why would I pay points for an aura, that forces me to risk perils while only also working 25% of the time.

I assume you mean that Librarians can Deny the Witch against him?

If so, overall you make some great points but I want to correct this. "Deny the Witch" doesn't work exactly 50% of the time. Naively, we might assume that the denier has a 2d6, just like the caster, so he should have the higher roll half the time, right? but you have to think about the sample of scenarios that deny the witch happens in.

For example, let's use some simpler math to illustrate. Imagine if there was a rule called "Deny the Armour Save" where you could roll a d6 against your opponent's armour save, and if you beat it, it wouldn't happen. Does this cut the number of successful saves in half? No. Why?

Well, let's say your opponent has 5+ Armour. He rolls a d6, and 1/3rd of the time, he gets a 5 or a 6, making his save. Then, you roll your Deny the Save roll, and-- well, it looks like most of the time you're actually rolling BELOW his roll. It's not a "50% chance to roll higher than him" because you only get to use this ability against someone who had a high roll to begin with, so it's hard to beat. In other words, due to sampling bias (only rolling against succeeded checks), you are rolling off against high rolls only, so it's not that likely you beat them.

So, let's see how this applies to Deny The Witch! Well, the same is true for psychic tests. If a psychic requires an 8+ to manifest a power, then there's a good chance he has rolled like a 9 or something. The odds of denying a successful psychic check are pretty low because most easy-to-deny rolls don't even give you a chance to "Deny The Witch" against.

So, Deny the Witch happens less than half of the time—significantly less. Of course, this is due to the pre-existing failure rate of psychic tests eliminating the easy-to-deny rolls from the population of rolls you might deny against, but that's how it goes.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 07:19:04 PM »
@Blazinghand you definitely have a point, I was overexaggerating the percentages a bit.
But lets try to cast one of the farseer powers then and see how big the odds are:
Successful casting: 21/36 = 58.3%
Successful DTW: 6/36 * 15/36 + 5/36 * 10/36 + 4/36 * 6/36 + 3/36 * 3/36 + 2/36 * 1/36 = 175/1296 = 13.5%

So yes it's not 25% it's 58.3 -13.5 = 44.8% success.

With Eldrads spiritlink it's 26/36 = 72.2 - 21,6 = 50,6%

You still need to cast smite (or something trickier) for that though, which has a 83.3% successrate and can be denied with -29,6% for a total of 53.7% success.

Yes I meant a librarian not an apothecary. :)
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 11:27:04 PM »
@SeekingOne:
I guess GW used that Lanchester formula then. My first assumption was also wrong though, since I misread that spirit stones is rolled for each damage but instead are rolled for against each wound.
That Lanchester formula still does not apply here, since you roll the dice 12(or 13) times, that allows you 2 successes.
If you roll against D2 wounds you only roll 6 dice, but that successful die saves you 2 wounds.
Those wounds that succeed you will get to roll saves for again.

So it's actually 1/6 + 1/6^2 +1/6^3.....1/6^n where n goes to infinity. Which should normalize somewhere around 24.99999999 so lets say 25%.

No-no, you were absolutely right - per FAQ, all such abilities that work like the old "Feel no Pain" rule, i.e. give you an extra chance to ignore a wound suffered, are rolled after damage multiplication, for each specific wound lost.

So, with a 6+ save for Spirit Stones, we get a single extra 17% chance to save each wound. This obviously means that regardless of any other factors, with SS upgrade in place our opponent will have to put 17% more shots (on average) into a vehicle in order to take it out than without SS upgrade. Which gives us exactly 17% or 1.17 times higher durability.


Quote
Concerning Eldrad yes he was powerful in 2nd ed, but he was still powerful in 4th and 5th ed. Where he knew all 5 eldar powers and could cast all of them despite being ML4, due to his staff.
Ah, so that's what you mean, got it now )

Quote
A plasma gun is actually more reliable.
This is actually a valid point. Sadly, we don't get to field an HQ with a plasmagun :)
And it's a more general thing in the whole 40k in fact - in many armies HQ choices are a kind of "tax". I mean, a tooled-up character often costs as much as a full unit or a vehicle, but he usually doesn't provide damage output comparable to that of a unit or a vehicle, nor does he have as much durability. So, if FOC wasn't forcing us to take a certain minimum number of HQs, then from the pure efficiency standpoint it actually might've been better to take no characters at all and invest everything into proper units.
Which is why I always get a feeling that in fact our best (as in "most cost-efficient") HQ choice might be Maugan Ra: he at least dishes out some real firepower, and almost as much of it as a battle tank or a unit of Dark Reapers.

As for Farseers, they might indeed not be a great value for points IF we consider just the raw effect of their buffs. However, a well-placed buff might give you a tactical advantage that you wouldn't get otherwise. So, the real question is - do you find the effects of Farseer's buffs useful for your tactics and your overall playstyle? If you do, and you find it convenient to use a Farseer on foot (rather than on bike) in your force, then Eldrad would be a good choice for you, or at least an option worth considering, for one specific reason: he's a much more versatile and reliable source of buffs than a generic Farseer. Or I can also put it this way: IF you think that a generic Farseer is a good value for points, then Eldrad is a good value for points as well, perhaps even better than a generic seer overall. Otherwise you'd be better off taking an Autarch for his cheapness or someone like Avatar or Maugan Ra for their sheer damage output.

Quote
Regarding the to hit rolls hitting on 4+ instead of 3+ reduces your hit chance from 67% to 50% (17 percentages) yes, but you will still hit 25 percent less. (The difference between "percentages" and "percent").
A triple shurican serpent that advances will get 4.5 hits.
A normal ditto will get 6 hits.

4.5/6 = 75% (not 83%)
I understood  you the first time :) What I meant is that if you take the higher average number of hits (6) for 100%, then the difference will be -25%, but if you take lower average number of hits (4.5) for 100%, then the difference will be +33%. Mathematically it's the same, but since we're using the word "penalty", then -25% will be more appropriate.

Quote
those tripple cannons cost XX points and 25% of that is 9.
so a discount of 9 points for that gear would be fine.
I thought you might be using this logic - however, this is something I have to disagree with: you can't use the cost of wargear on its own, at the very least because you don't have an option of taking a WS without it. You cannot estimate the value of a gun in a vacuum, without considering the platform that carries it.
All calculations have to be made in relation the unit's full point cost balanced against its full firepower and full durability, otherwise errors are inevitable.

So, here, we have a vehicle that gets downgraded to 75% or 0.75 of its initial firepower. Using Lanchester's square formulas again, we can say that such downgrade warrants (roughly) a square root of 0.75 times decrease in points. sqrt(0.75) ~= 0.866 so, if the initial value of the vehicle is 143 pts, then the reduced value will be 143*0.866 ~= 124 pts, which gives us approximate difference of 19 pts. 

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Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 04:50:27 AM »
[...] Which is why I always get a feeling that in fact our best (as in "most cost-efficient") HQ choice might be Maugan Ra: he at least dishes out some real firepower, and almost as much of it as a battle tank or a unit of Dark Reapers.

As for Farseers, they might indeed not be a great value for points IF we consider just the raw effect of their buffs. However, a well-placed buff might give you a tactical advantage that you wouldn't get otherwise. So, the real question is - do you find the effects of Farseer's buffs useful for your tactics and your overall playstyle? If you do, and you find it convenient to use a Farseer on foot (rather than on bike) in your force, then Eldrad would be a good choice for you, or at least an option worth considering, for one specific reason: he's a much more versatile and reliable source of buffs than a generic Farseer. Or I can also put it this way: IF you think that a generic Farseer is a good value for points, then Eldrad is a good value for points as well, perhaps even better than a generic seer overall. Otherwise you'd be better off taking an Autarch for his cheapness or someone like Avatar or Maugan Ra for their sheer damage output.

Maugan Ra is an excellent HQ choice. Played him in every list so far. The damage output is on par if not higher than a triple Shurican-Wave (not including Ra's re-roll or the Serpent Shield). He's a decent Fighter and the bonus for Reapers is welcome. I also tried Vanilla Farseers as well as Eldrad. Tbh, i was not overly impressed by either of them. Imho the psychic powers are not reliable enough, not even with Eldrad. As it stands atm, I would either pick Eldrad himself or a Doom-Skyrunner.

"Warlocks as Taxes" might become my go-to thing, I've always liked using cheapo HQs. And they're even better with Ynnari soulbursts.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:26:06 AM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 09:29:33 AM »
Right, ever since I got my hands on the books I've been trying to make lists and I struggle something fierce currently. Can someone lend a hand with figuring out our troop choices. Right now, I can't see a reason to bring any of them, as they're either too expensive, too fragile or a mix of the two.

I'd love to field a Dire Avenger/Asurmen army, but I can't see the point as it will be far too much points and not really that effective. Guardians will still die far too quickly, Rangers are far too specialised for my taste and the few times I've fielded them so far, they haven't really done anything. As for Storm Guardians, I can't figure out what their use are currently. They won't have enough attacks to make a difference and once you start kitting them out they become (I think) too expensive for what they do.

Am I missing something here?

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2017, 10:14:58 AM »
I've been seeing decent success with guardians that pal around with a cheap  warlock. Stick to cover and use conceal. This keeps them decently durable, specially if you allocate wounds to the shuriken cannon first. Against "normal" bolter equivalent weapons they'll be ok. Things with AP values they're still squishy, bit they were before.

Really it depends how many command points you want. I've been using the elite or FA focused detachments myself.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2017, 10:18:43 AM »
Guardians have always been fragile and they are supposed to be fragile.  I've never understood the complaints across all editions about this issue.  There are ways to mitigate their vulnerabilities and, based on the early evidence, they seem to be the best option for troops in terms of not being too expensive and getting the job done.
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Offline Sarkrim

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 10:37:17 AM »
I'll admit to being slightly coloured by having played a fair few games against Dark Eldar and they tend to erase infantry fairly easily. But I'll give the guardians a proper field testing.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 11:05:56 AM »
Can someone lend a hand with figuring out our troop choices. Right now, I can't see a reason to bring any of them, as they're either too expensive, too fragile or a mix of the two.

Well, first of all, with the new set of Detachments available you don't really need Troops that critically. You can go for an Outrider detachment based on FA, Spearhead based on Elites and there's even one based on Heavy Support (forgot the name). Compared to Batallion detachment (the one that requires 3 Troops), you'll be starting with the total of 4 command points instead of 6, but that is still an option worth considering.

That said, imho Guardian Defenders are our best Troops option hands down. They are still very fragile, but far less so than before. 10 Guardians actually cost less than 5 Avengers, and 10 models in 5+ save will most definitely last longer than 5 models in 4+ save.

The biggest thing about Guardians is their low cost. Believe it or not - statistically, point for point they provide the highest damage output out of ALL units in the Index, and they also, again point for point, practically have the highest durability of all our infantry and bike units (hard to believe, I know, but true). For example, 3 Windriders with shuricannons cost as much as 12 Guardians, yet it takes more firepower (on average) to remove 12 guardians than 3 windriders.

I know that in practice it's not as bright as in theory: in order to use their shuricats Guardians will have to get very close to the enemy and thus expose themselves to much heavier punishment than units like Reapers that can pound the enemy from much safer distance. Still, they are so cheap that casualties are affordable. The only problem I have with this is that this is super-unfluffy.

Imho, the best combination of units is Guardians in a Serpent. They kind of compensate each other's shortcomings: WS doesn't pack much firepower but is very durable; Guardians are the opposite basically. Imho, a mechanised list including multiple WSs with Guardians and Dragons is one of the most viable CWE builds now.

Agree with your points about other troops; they are not really worth considering (except for purely fluff purposes).
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Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2017, 05:48:28 AM »
Hornets:
Crystal Matrix is an auto include here.

Point wise 8 Dark reapers are cheaper than 2 Hornets with 2 x HPL, both have a similar damage output against T4 3+ Saves, DR have a slight advantage thanks to volume. Against 2+ saves you couldn't split them. Very similar right up to T8, again slight advantage to DRs.

Dark Reapers can be put in cover rather easily, can act as Anti-Air and can take on T8 just as well. Hornets can mover out of range should something get close, but being a tank, they are going to get shot by high S weapons with solid AP values doing multiple points of Damage, so they may not last very long.



Shadow Spectres
giggity

OK they have the potentials to be AWESOME, Solid armour save, great mobility, decent range given their mobility, assault weapons, basically they all have super-flamers to protect from assault troops, harder to hit than your average infantry and if you pay for the exarch, then you are tinkering with Moral tests. Soooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooo want to put these on the table with a Hemlock nearby.....

Their special rule for shooting makes Tesla look crappy, but has the potential to fizzal out.

So Damage output for normal fire 10 models worth of points vs 7 Dark Reapers (these cost a bit more).

T4-3+
SS get 6-8 W's DR's get 4-5

T4-2+
SS 4-6 W, DR's 3-4

Best use for guide ever!

Down side... they are going to take a slot for scorpions/Incubi and incubi will do an extra 5 W if you can get them all into CC.




The rest of the FW book is not as exciting, yeah Titan can kick butt, as if they wouldn't lol. Warp Hunters continue the trend of lackluster Eldar tanks. Cobra might knock the WraithKnight out of the LoW slot, except if you are fighting Necrons.  The FW WK is rather expensive point wise, but is going to annoy the crap out of people with its special rule.


« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:24:05 AM by magenb »

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar in 8th - Units, Tactics, Experience
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 12:05:56 AM »
Some things I learned in my games today.

1) Serpents with Vectored engines and /or spirit stones are very durable. I'm not sure CTM plus lances are good. Both games I was unable to deploy, and position this serpent in a way to use the CTM properly. I was hoping to use it as supplemental damage do my Reapers, but it had to keep shooting at -1BS. It missed a lot, and only rolled a 1 and a 2 for the two times it managed to damage something. A serpent with all cannons, vectored engines and spirit stones shrugged off so much damage it was stupid.

2) I had decent success with 5x Rangers with Illic. Durable enough and popped a few lesser characters fairly well. Not so good against biker warbosses...

3) Warlocks aren't very reliable in passing their psychic tests...Skyrunners cost quite a bit of points. A foot-lock would be acceptable for the price in the right list (like a large foot list with an Avatar)

4) Shining Spears are really good..Very fast and hit hard.

5) Reapers are good. I want to run larger squads but it's hard to fit the points. They can get over run easily though if you can't block off your enemy or they have access to long range dakka themselves (Lootaz were a problem).

6) 9" charges are hard to make, even when using a command point to reroll it. Got pretty unlucky with my Scorpions in both games. They really want to shown up in cover, and assault something in cover. Going to keep trying them though. I need to use them more in conjunction with say a unit of Avengers or Guardians in a Serpent.

 


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