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Author Topic: Eldar is next.  (Read 20731 times)

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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2017, 04:22:58 PM »
Hmm, given that Eldar have a bunch of other ways of getting harder to hit (Rangers, Flyers, Conceal, etc) is it possible someone could run an Alaitoc army where the vast majority of the army is at -2 to hit from enemies? This seems like it would be incredibly strong, too strong imo:

Space Marine firepower would be halved against such an army.
Guardsman firepower cut in a third.
Conscripts would not be able to hit at all.

EDIT:

something like

ALAITOC

++Battalion
+HQ+
Farseer
Warlock with Conceal
+Troops+
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
+Elite+
5 Wraithguard
5 Wraithguard
+Transport+
Serpent with Vectored Engines
Serpent with Vectored Engines

++Air Wing
Hemlock Wraithfighter
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter

++Outrider
Autarch with WJG
5 Warp Spiders
5 Warp Spiders
5 Warp Spiders


Could present only super duper hard to hit stuff, for example.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:37:28 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2017, 04:32:59 PM »
Quote
Gonna assume, that any option which doesn't come in the box, won't be in the book. I thought all those weapon options came in the aspect boxes though.

I've never picked up any of the resin boxed sets (when I last bought Aspect Warriors they still came in blister packs and Exarchs came in separate ones) but my understanding is that the only options they come with are the ones shown on the box. Which implies two of the 4th Ed. Exarchs 0 the Banshee and Fire Dragon - with alternate weapon options are no longer supported (I may be misremembering the Dark Reaper - it's possible that once had a model with a shuriken cannon). The Hawk and Spider options have certainly never had models, and I don't think the Scorpion did.

I can confirm Reaper Exarch still has the shuriken cannon and Dragons have the DBF option. It seems the Hawk lost both gun options as well as spider Exarch losing the spinneret rifle. Sad.

Thanks. The DBF is the only one that specifically affects any models I have, and I do sometimes use the option in part because my firepike Exarch is in another country.

Quote
I believe the official ruling from GW is that any units/options that existed in the Index books that is not listed in the codex may still be taken using the Index entry.  For example, Roughriders are apparently not in the new IG codex (so I've read -- I don't own the IG book, so I can't say for sure), but IG players are still allowed to field Roughriders using the entry from Index Imperium II. Likewise, Marine players who lost Dreadnought or Razorback weapon options can still use the Index Imperium I entry for those units to get their desired options back.

I think the issue is that now these options have been officially removed, they're unlikely to return because any revision to the model range will need to be consistent with the current Codex. When the Warp Spiders are finally revised they aren't going to get an Exarch option with a spinneret rifle because they'd need to put rules for the unit into a datasheet and that would just be confusing for a unit that already has full rules in a Codex. The big issue is likely to be the Autarch, who's now going to be pretty short of options relative to most characters and whose options don't even fully support the available official models (it's been discontinued, but the Scorpion-helmeted Autarch model does have a warp jump generator).

Hmm, given that Eldar have a bunch of other ways of getting harder to hit (Rangers, Flyers, Conceal, etc) is it possible someone could run an Alaitoc army where the vast majority of the army is at -2 to hit from enemies? This seems like it would be incredibly strong, too strong imo:

Remember the Alaitoc bonus doesn't work at ranges closer than 12". All the units other than the fliers and Serpents in this list have 12" range, aside from the Rangers who have low firepower output and can't evade deep strike or enemy fliers very well. If your plan is to get Wraithguard into range with Wave Serpents, they won't get this bonus even for a turn unless you're moving second (in which case they'll take a bit less damage on their Wave Serpents but were probably going to survive anyway).

It's also an army built around modifiers that do nothing at all against close combat armies. It does help the fliers, but they could get an equivalent bonus previously.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:52:51 PM by Rhyleth »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2017, 05:32:19 PM »
I can confirm Reaper Exarch still has the shuriken cannon and Dragons have the DBF option. It seems the Hawk lost both gun options as well as spider Exarch losing the spinneret rifle. Sad.

Thanks. The DBF is the only one that specifically affects any models I have, and I do sometimes use the option in part because my firepike Exarch is in another country.

Quote
I believe the official ruling from GW is that any units/options that existed in the Index books that is not listed in the codex may still be taken using the Index entry.  For example, Roughriders are apparently not in the new IG codex (so I've read -- I don't own the IG book, so I can't say for sure), but IG players are still allowed to field Roughriders using the entry from Index Imperium II. Likewise, Marine players who lost Dreadnought or Razorback weapon options can still use the Index Imperium I entry for those units to get their desired options back.

I think the issue is that now these options have been officially removed, they're unlikely to return because any revision to the model range will need to be consistent with the current Codex. When the Warp Spiders are finally revised they aren't going to get an Exarch option with a spinneret rifle because they'd need to put rules for the unit into a datasheet and that would just be confusing for a unit that already has full rules in a Codex. The big issue is likely to be the Autarch, who's now going to be pretty short of options relative to most characters and whose options don't even fully support the available official models (it's been discontinued, but the Scorpion-helmeted Autarch model does have a warp jump generator).

Although I'm concerned with the removal of the rules for models, and I think it bodes ill for that thing ever returning in the future, it doesn't mean GW can't do it. I think it just means they're not interested in it any more. GW can always sell models with data cards coming in their boxes, like is happening currently with the Bonesinger; the fact that it's gone from the Codex doesn't mean GW can't bring it back, just that they likely won't.
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Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2017, 05:51:38 PM »
I'm honestly not worried about options like the Spinneret Rifle coming back.  GW has already started putting datasheets in the newer Marine sets, so rules included in the boxes won't be anything new.

I fully expect that if (and that's a BIG if) GW makes a plastic Warp Spider kit it will feature additional parts for new/restored weapon options.  Same for Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and all the rest. GW's modus operandi seems to be to include extra parts on all of their new plastic kits.

Also, as I mentioned before, GW's official stance is that the Index versions of the units are still legal.  So the Warp Spider exarch can still use the Spinneret Rifle, if you use the entry from the Index (including the points costs).  Basically the codex and index versions exist in parallel; one doesn't strictly overrule the other, as was the case in previous editions of 40k.

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2017, 05:57:51 PM »

Although I'm concerned with the removal of the rules for models, and I think it bodes ill for that thing ever returning in the future, it doesn't mean GW can't do it. I think it just means they're not interested in it any more. GW can always sell models with data cards coming in their boxes, like is happening currently with the Bonesinger; the fact that it's gone from the Codex doesn't mean GW can't bring it back, just that they likely won't.

It's just cleaning things up. Makes sense to only have rules for what's in the box. And, if the plastic kits we've been getting are any indicator, any new plastic box for older units will be chock full of options.

Also, the trend of rules coming in boxes is nothing new. It's been going on with Age of Sigmar since day 1. It's about time 40k got on board.


Hmm, given that Eldar have a bunch of other ways of getting harder to hit (Rangers, Flyers, Conceal, etc) is it possible someone could run an Alaitoc army where the vast majority of the army is at -2 to hit from enemies? This seems like it would be incredibly strong, too strong imo:

Space Marine firepower would be halved against such an army.
Guardsman firepower cut in a third.
Conscripts would not be able to hit at all.

EDIT:

something like

ALAITOC

++Battalion
+HQ+
Farseer
Warlock with Conceal
+Troops+
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
+Elite+
5 Wraithguard
5 Wraithguard
+Transport+
Serpent with Vectored Engines
Serpent with Vectored Engines

++Air Wing
Hemlock Wraithfighter
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter

++Outrider
Autarch with WJG
5 Warp Spiders
5 Warp Spiders
5 Warp Spiders


Could present only super duper hard to hit stuff, for example.


Guilliman spam still will probably beat this, and Smite spam is not effected at all. Also, doesn't help in melee.

Situationally, it's good, but it's a gimmick and all gimmicks wax and wane.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2017, 06:26:12 PM »
It doesn't make sense though. Reaper Exarch still has the shuriken cannon even though it's not included. Dragons have the pike and another "gun" that can be a fusion gun or a flamer by all means. Removing the gun options from the hawks is very sad as the sun rifle and talon were both decent options that added something to the unit. The shuriken cannon is never a good pick and the fire pike is at odds with the range of the rest of the unit (it should have just received S9 or S10 or something). The dragon flamer adds needed utility to the unit. The spinneret rifle was also an odd range making it awkward to use with the range of the other spinners.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2017, 07:07:44 PM »
@Partninja, this is actually the first edition that those awkward exarch weapons would make sense, since you can aim them at a different target.

Firepike can aim for a second vehicle that is further away, same with the spinneret rifle and to some extent the sunrifle. shuriken cannon is not useless for reapers, just a weird option.
Maybe we will see a return of these weapons in plastic boxes to come, or maybe just maybe we will get a basic plastic aspect box, then need to get each aspects gearsprues separately?
But that's just me guessing. Could be GW being lazy not fixing the rules and points cost for for example the sunrifle or a combination.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2017, 09:14:40 PM »
@Partninja, this is actually the first edition that those awkward exarch weapons would make sense, since you can aim them at a different target.

Firepike can aim for a second vehicle that is further away, same with the spinneret rifle and to some extent the sunrifle. shuriken cannon is not useless for reapers, just a weird option.
Maybe we will see a return of these weapons in plastic boxes to come, or maybe just maybe we will get a basic plastic aspect box, then need to get each aspects gearsprues separately?
But that's just me guessing. Could be GW being lazy not fixing the rules and points cost for for example the sunrifle or a combination.

The firepike made plenty of sense in 3rd - back then fusion guns were substantially weaker than meltaguns and it had a small blast marker (which was more to exploit the way blast markers worked vs. opem-topped vehicles than any functional utility). Even now it has the minor edge that half range is 3" further than for the rest of the squad.

The options that never got models mostly seemed to be added just to give the units with only one relevant option (power sword on Hawks not really counting as viable) something a bit more viable.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2017, 09:19:36 PM »
A minor edge isn't an edge if the rest of your fusion guns are 3" shy. Things have already gone horribly wrong. The advantage is hardly used or worth the points.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2017, 10:14:15 PM »
A minor edge isn't an edge if the rest of your fusion guns are 3" shy. Things have already gone horribly wrong. The advantage is hardly used or worth the points.

It happens sometimes, when coming out of a Wave Serpent, that you can only go far enough to get some of your Fire Dragons into 6" range, but not all. This has happened to me a few times. For example, let's say your Fire Dragons disembark, move, and advance for a total of 12 inches, to shoot at a rhino that is just under 18 inches away. Their goal is to get into a 6 inch range of the Rhino before they shoot:



Your 6 Fire Dragons jump out and run forward:



But... there is only room for 5 of them, within the range they can reach from your transport, to get within 6 inches! One of them is out of range. Now, you can just hop out the Exarch last and have him be at the back of the group, so that in any situation where one can't be into half range it will be him, who is actually inside half range.

Again, not saying this is going to be useful all the time, but playing properly it can still be useful.

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Offline Gildaheir

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2017, 10:21:15 PM »
Sorry to switch topics a bit, but I might have missed something.  Can autarchs no longer take a reaper launcher?


Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2017, 10:22:45 PM »
It doesn't appear to be an option in the codex. However there is an argument that you can still take options from the Index.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2017, 10:46:50 PM »
It doesn't appear to be an option in the codex. However there is an argument that you can still take options from the Index.

Has Games Workshop said that you can take options from the index or has it said that you can take units from the index. I thought it was the latter not the former.
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Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2017, 10:48:11 PM »
It doesn't appear to be an option in the codex. However there is an argument that you can still take options from the Index.

From the community FAQ about the Marine codex:

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Source: Codexes: Your Questions Answered – Warhammer Community


I see no reason why this same logic would apply to SM armies, but not to Eldar or anyone else.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 10:51:16 PM by laucian_meliamne »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2017, 10:49:19 PM »
It doesn't appear to be an option in the codex. However there is an argument that you can still take options from the Index.


From the community FAQ about the Marine codex:

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Source: Codexes: Your Questions Answered – Warhammer Community


I see no reason why this same logic would apply to SM armies, but not to Elder or anyone else.

This looks valid to me thank you for the info
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Offline Lorizael

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2017, 05:33:48 PM »
Got my copy of the Codex today. It all looks very nice. Just repointed my Aspect Host and I've gone from 1750 to 1500 :D
Now to repoint my Wraiths...

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #136 on: October 24, 2017, 10:13:48 PM »
Got my copy of the Codex today. It all looks very nice. Just repointed my Aspect Host and I've gone from 1750 to 1500 :D
Now to repoint my Wraiths...

Hmm, haven't got the message that mine's shipped yet.

Offline Lorizael

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2017, 06:21:33 AM »
Got my copy of the Codex today. It all looks very nice. Just repointed my Aspect Host and I've gone from 1750 to 1500 :D
Now to repoint my Wraiths...

Hmm, haven't got the message that mine's shipped yet.

If you've bought direct from GW, it won't ship until the day of release. Stockists shouldn't ship out early either, so you're unlikely to get it prior to Saturday.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2017, 08:28:40 AM »
Got my copy of the Codex today. It all looks very nice. Just repointed my Aspect Host and I've gone from 1750 to 1500 :D
Now to repoint my Wraiths...

Hmm, haven't got the message that mine's shipped yet.

If you've bought direct from GW, it won't ship until the day of release. Stockists shouldn't ship out early either, so you're unlikely to get it prior to Saturday.

Back when I last played in 3rd/4th, GW was fairly good about sending pre-orders out to arrive on the day of release (and occasionally a day early).

Offline Lorizael

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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2017, 04:44:07 PM »
Got my copy of the Codex today. It all looks very nice. Just repointed my Aspect Host and I've gone from 1750 to 1500 :D
Now to repoint my Wraiths...

Hmm, haven't got the message that mine's shipped yet.

If you've bought direct from GW, it won't ship until the day of release. Stockists shouldn't ship out early either, so you're unlikely to get it prior to Saturday.

Back when I last played in 3rd/4th, GW was fairly good about sending pre-orders out to arrive on the day of release (and occasionally a day early).

For about 5 years now, orders sent home ship on day of release, while orders sent to a GW store will be there for collection on the release day.

 


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