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Author Topic: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check  (Read 1858 times)

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Offline flatworldsedge

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Updated for 8E in comments below as suggested.  Objectives remain the same. All thoughts appreciated!

Original post:


Hey all,

Hope you're having a great week!  Returning to Eldar after a ~15 year period just playing WFB (Dark Elves) I was hoping for some advice on a first force.

The following looked quite fun to paint and I was hoping it could form a nice, easy to play base I could get up and running quickly and cheaply. 

It'd be for all comers play at GW/Darksphere in London, but "crunch" games against friends would be vs. Tyranids and Chaos Marines.

I don't need it to be the most mini-maxed, rule-rape enabled thing out there, and appreciate there will be much nastier ways to spend the points.  I'd just love some thoughts on whether this is in any way viable, if key tweaks or kit/load choices would be especially advantageous.

Fluff wise I'm framing this as a force that might explore tombs, space hulks, etc. in the hunt for lost relics, craftworlds and ancient conspiracies.  Hence infantry and psy to explore and small vehicle component only, being scouts or overwatch for an entry point to whatever ancient ruins are being investigated.

All input greatly valued;

Farseer (Eldrad stat line)

3x 5 Dire avengers (DA formation)
Exarch

1x 3 Jetbike
Scatter laser

Spiritseer

1x 5 Wraithguard

1x 5 Wraithblades

1x Wave Serpent
Scatter laser


« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 04:29:21 PM by flatworldsedge »

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 04:02:47 AM »
In literally 2 days time, there is  new edition of WH40k being released.
Wait until then, as the advice given will be very different for the new (8th) edition vs the current (7th) edition.

PS: Welcome back to 40k! You've picked a great time to re-join the hobby -all indications are that 8th edition is going to be a lot of fun to play.
The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.

Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 06:26:15 AM »
Thanks!  I'd seen notes on what's to come and you're right of course!  Will hold tight and keep cleaning/prepping some multipurpose models for painting.  They can also be renamed later!

Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 01:27:09 PM »
G'day Flatworldsedge!
Welcome back to 40K, mate.

Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2017, 03:33:40 AM »
Thanks - appreciate the welcome!  Look forward to sharing painting, etc. and seeing what others are up to.

Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 04:29:50 PM »
Using the 8E Index to rebuild this list I get to 918 pts with just the following units!  Have things really gotten that much more expensive, or am I misreading their notes on adding points for all wargear (which nearly doubles the cost of Dire Avengers, for instance).  If this is costed correctly, it doesn't really feel like a viable list anymore - with so many cuts.  In fact I'd sketched this list as a 500 point core, and then found it near double when I did the maths.

I'm keen to keep some Dire Avengers for fluff, and keen to keep the Wraith***** units, both for fluff and so I can start painting the army on nice, big, clean plastic models.

Spiritseer

5x Wraithblades with axe/shield

5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon

3x Windriders (jetbikes) with scatterlasers

5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:20:18 PM by flatworldsedge »

Offline magenb

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 05:28:15 PM »
HQ - 66
Troops - 297 (Assuming Exarch makes a 6th model in each squad)
Elites - 420
Fast Attack - 90
Total 873

You only pay for what you are actually taking now.

Yeah it is a right pain to work out the points now, battlescribe should have something soon :)


Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 05:37:39 PM »
Thanks magenb - think I must be adding them wrongly.  E.g. I had 327 for troops with exarchs included in the 15 models total.

I was doing cost of 15 avengers, plus cost of avenger shruiken catapult for each, plus cost of three shinmershields and three powerglaives for the exarchs to get to that total for the 15.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 11:13:39 PM »
Using the 8E Index to rebuild this list I get to 918 pts with just the following units!  Have things really gotten that much more expensive, or am I misreading their notes on adding points for all wargear (which nearly doubles the cost of Dire Avengers, for instance).  If this is costed correctly, it doesn't really feel like a viable list anymore - with so many cuts.  In fact I'd sketched this list as a 500 point core, and then found it near double when I did the maths.

I'm keen to keep some Dire Avengers for fluff, and keen to keep the Wraith***** units, both for fluff and so I can start painting the army on nice, big, clean plastic models.

Spiritseer

5x Wraithblades with axe/shield

5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon

3x Windriders (jetbikes) with scatterlasers

5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive

So, some thoughts about this list. You're currently taking 1 HQ, 2 Elites, 1 FA, 3 Troops (assuming each DA squad is 4x Aspect Warrior, 1x Exarch) for a total of 937 points, giving you some space to play with. The only detachment this qualifies for you is Patrol, which has a requirement of 1 Troop and 1 HQ, which means you don't need to run 3 minimum squads of DAs if you don't want to: only one is required.

One thought might be to combine the DAs into 2 10x squads. This would normally put you over 1000 pts, but you can change the scatter lasers on your windriders to shuriken cannons to stay under 1000 pts.

Some advantages to doing this:
1. You get more DA, running 20 instead of 15.
2. You present only 6 Kill Points instead of 7, and also deploy more quickly
3. You protect all 20 DAs with only 2 Shimmershields, which is more points-effecient
4. Shuriken Cannons get the same number of hits (2 per turn) on average if the jetbike is moving that the Scatter Laser does, since Shuriken Cannon is Assault and therefore more accurate. It also can rend, and is cheaper.

Downsides:
1. Your DAs will be less flexible in smaller squads.
2.You also have 1 less exarch, which means 1 less power glaive.
3. Shuriken Cannons require your bikes get closer to shoot. Also, a Scatter Laser gets more hits per turn than a Shuriken Cannon if the bike is stationary

If you have the models for it, I think the extra bodies on the board that full-sized DA squads give would be worth it, and the Shuriken Cannons will often perform as well as or better than the scatter lasers.


However, I consider these changes relatively minor. The list as it is will probably get by just fine on the table. Maybe I'm just reminiscing on the change from DAVUs to 10-DA bladestorm units but it always felt more fun to run full squads of DAs.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:16:13 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 01:03:26 AM »
@magenb
HQ - 66
Troops - 297 (Assuming Exarch makes a 6th model in each squad)
Elites - 420
Fast Attack - 90
Total 873

Actually it is:
HQ - 66
Troops - 306 (Assuming units of 5 models one of which is upgraded to Exarch)
Elites - 460
Fast Attack - 105

Total 937


Post Merge: June 22, 2017, 03:24:43 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

@flatworldsedge
Using the 8E Index to rebuild this list I get to 918 pts with just the following units!  Have things really gotten that much more expensive, or am I misreading their notes on adding points for all wargear (which nearly doubles the cost of Dire Avengers, for instance). 
As I wrote above, it's actually 937 points (assuming DA squads are 5-strong).
Sorry to say it this straight, but part of the reason for the point cost jump is that you happened to build your list of almost all most badly overpriced units from the current Index.

Quote
If this is costed correctly, it doesn't really feel like a viable list anymore - with so many cuts.  In fact I'd sketched this list as a 500 point core, and then found it near double when I did the maths.
You're absolutely right - as a 500 pts core this list would've been great, but at 1000 pts it doesn't feel that good at all.

Quote
Spiritseer
Imho, this guy is a bit too expensive for what he does - his only meaningful advantage over a Warlock is that he casts full-powered Smite. It's a good thing, but I doubt it's worth +29 pts. Still, you'll be perfectly fine if you paint this guy up - if at some point you find that he doesn't pull his weight, you can easily start fielding him as an ordinary Warlock. And the model is really nice.

Quote
5x Wraithblades with axe/shield

5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon
Wraithguard with wraithcannons are a solid choice. Wraithaxes however... On paper they look just way too crazy expensive for the output. IF their axes didn't have that -1 to hit penalty, they would've been quite good, but the way they are - the unit is durable, sure, but the damage output would be sub-par I'm afraid.

I strongly recommend you to magnetise your Wraithblades - so that you can switch them between axes and swords, to try out both variants. It's easy to do - you need to magnetise left arm at a shoulder and right arm at a wrist. There are tutorials on the web, for example this one: How to Magnetise Eldar Wraithguard/Wraithblades - YouTube. If you do this, then you're perfectly safe - because even though Wraithblades with axes seem questionable value for points, Wraithblades with swords are really solid, so if you keep both options open, one of them is definitely going to work for you :)
 
Quote
3x Windriders (jetbikes) with scatterlasers

These guys, while also overpriced, are still playable - BUT scatter laser feels like a decisively inferior weapon option now compared to shuriken cannon.
Thing is, a shuricannon and a scatter laser have roughly equal base damage output - shuricannon is slightly better vs armoured targets due to Bladestorm rule, while scatter is slightly better vs targets with saves of 4+ or worse due to higher number of shots. However, the key advantage of shuricannon is that it is an Assault weapon while scatter is Heavy. This means that shuricannon bike can move and even Advance and still fire without any penalty, which gives it an effective move of 22", while scatter bike will suffer -1 to hit penalty as soon as it moves, and won't be able to shoot at all after advancing. And, naturally, the damage output of a scatter laser firing at -1 to hit is way smaller than that of a shuricannon firing at full BS.

Again, if you're building these guys anew, I'd strongly recommend to magnetise their weapons, so that you have all options safely available to you.

Quote
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
5x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive
Well.... Sadly, I can't say anything good about these units. They've taken by far the biggest hit in the new Index, for no apparent reason too - it's not like they ever were OP or anything like that. Their stats are the same as they always were, and they would've been alright at 11-12 pts per model, 13 at the most - but their current point cost is effectively about 1.5 times higher than it should be.
I'm still hoping against hope that GW designers recognise this situation as an oversight or a typo and FAQ it out soon - otherwise the unit could just as well have been removed from the codex.
Of course there's nothing to stop you from including them for fluff reasons, but effectiveness-wise by taking them you're shooting yourself in the foot. They are also expensive money-wise, now that you get just 5 models per box - so at this point I'd recommend to stay away from them completely. However, if you already have the models, and really want to use them, I'd suggest to get 5 more models and field them as 2 squads of 10 Guardian Defenders.

Quote
Fluff wise I'm framing this as a force that might explore tombs, space hulks, etc. in the hunt for lost relics, craftworlds and ancient conspiracies.  Hence infantry and psy to explore and small vehicle component only, being scouts or overwatch for an entry point to whatever ancient ruins are being investigated.
If that is your army's background - I'd say that fluff-wise Wraiths are units which would be the least likely to appear in such force. Just think of it: as a leader of a scouting mission, you'd certainly want every available pair of eyes to be alert, aware and on a sharp lookout - so why would you want to have Wraiths with you, who are, while mighty in combat, ponderous, slow and psychically detached from the mortal world? Storm/Defender Guardians, Rangers, Windriders, Striking Scorpions - that sounds more like it...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 03:26:45 AM by SeekingOne »
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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2017, 09:24:26 AM »
I think it looks like a fun list. I'd definetly try to add a second HQ, so you can run a Battalion Detachment. For expansion, I'd try to get some transports for your units (waveserpents and/or falcons).

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Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Updated for 8E - Returning player 1,000 all comers list check
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 06:56:03 PM »
Many thanks to all for detailed, thoughtful comments.  They've really given me lots to think about and I'm definitely changing the list in consideration.

DA unit size - totally agree that two larger units make more economic use of the shimmershield whilst keeps cost down.  Currently moving to two units of 8.

DA's at all - the points cost to performance does seem outrageous.  That said, even though I'm clearly overpaying for the extra range and better saves over guardians, for the moment I think I'll keep them in.  There's some fluff reasoning to be added to the Craftworld background thread once I have it all sketched, but also some pragmatism.  I want to get an army painted and on the table.  Again fluff related I'm painting Guardian models as my DA's (with DA models as the Exarchs).  So once I have the 1,000 pts painted, I will have the option of relabelling them as Guardians if they've been underperforming.  It strikes me too that if power ends up being used over points, the cost isn't so bad - 5 DA's cost twice as many points as 10 Guardians, yet they are only 75% of the power cost (which is of course crazy!).

Wraithblade kit - I've temporarily switched these to swords.  The points difference is just too harsh at 1,000 pts.  That to hit penalty with the axe is an issue when it costs so much more.  I'd like a transport to mitigate the loss of the shield (and to paint), but don't think I can afford it points wise.

Wraith***** units and fluff - I'd not thought that through, and it's a sound point.  Dopey, half sentient wraiths blunder through a space hulk does indeed leave one terrified of what an ambush might look like.  I'm reframing my fluff a little as the craftworld thread has a few similar themes.  Ultimately Wraith***** units will be part of it as I love the models and they look great fun to paint, at a more forgiving scale.

Jetbike load out - That post about assault vs. heavy is very well made indeed.  Switching them to shuriken cannons.

Spiritseer - I'd over valued the re-roll benefit to Wraith***** units.  Trying to switch him to a Farseer for the extra dispels and powers that replicate those re-rolls more effectively.

That gets me to the following updated list;

Farseer with singing spear

5x Wraithblades with ghostswords

5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon

3x Windriders (jetbikes) with shuriken cannon

8x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive

8x Dire Avengers, Exarch with shimmershield/powerglaive

897 (?)

In terms of finishing that I'm looking again at;

- dropping the farseer back to a spiritseer to fund a brightlance Wave Serpent to carry the Wraithblades
- adding another unit of bikes
- adding a unit of rangers

Little while to ponder that as I have Wraiths and DA (Guardian models) to paint. 

Again huge thanks for everyone's incredibly generous thoughts so far.  Massively appreciated.

 


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