Topic: Revenant or 2 WKs?

[Galef]

Is there any combination of 2 WKs (both with Wraithcannons, 1 WC, 1 Suncannon, etc) that can match a Revenant?
Even including Skathach WKs, it just seems like a single Revenant puts out almost as much damage as 3 WKs, but is only a bit more than the cost of 2.

A single Pulsar easily averages more shots that a single WK with 2 Heavy Wraithcannons (HWC).  If you roll 8 on the 2d6 for shots, that single Pulsar just got as may shots as 2 WKs.  It looks like a single Revenant could easily put out as much damage as 2 HWC WKs AND a single Suncannon WK combined.

The only downside I can see to the Revenant is that it has 32 wounds.  2 WKs will have 48.  But the T9 and 5++ for moving should even this out.  Plus, it's a single target for Fortune.  The additional range and movement could also mean that the Revenant could get out of range of threats that a WK could not.

So in a list that is willing to commit over half its points on Lords of War, is there any point in taking 2 WKs over a single Revenant?

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[magenb]

2 WK's gives your opponent two headaches it needs to focus on.

I would probably take the Revenant with the sonic lances now, on average 9 wounds that would need a 6+ to save for tanks, and it will waste infantry units. This way the drop in BS skill doesn't matter. Additionally when it does go down, it might exploded in their line not yours Lets face it, it will cop every shot they can make against it.

The Titan also has the spirit host keyword, I missed this in the first read through, so you could sprinkle some spirit seers around the table if you are going to be using pulsars.

[SeekingOne]

I wouldn't bother with it at all. Even WK is way too easy to destroy now; and Revenant has even smaller durability/points ratio, which sounds like a very poor prospect. A couple of Storm Ravens or a trio of las-Predators huddled around Guilliman will probably drop it below half wounds in 1 shooting phase, and kill it in two.

[Galef]

I wouldn't bother with it at all. Even WK is way too easy to destroy now; and Revenant has even smaller durability/points ratio, which sounds like a very poor prospect. A couple of Storm Ravens or a trio of las-Predators huddled around Guilliman will probably drop it below half wounds in 1 shooting phase, and kill it in two.

Granted, although the idea behind a list like this is that you have less deployment drops and thus will go first.  A single Revenant can obliterate 3 units in a turn, so you take out those LasPreds or Stormravens.
Once you take out those threats, even a Guilliman aided list should struggle to put wounds on it, especially if you keep it outside 48" range.

I wouldn't bring this to a tourney ever, but in casual-competitive games, it should do fine.

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[Grizzlykin]

I wouldn't bother with it at all. Even WK is way too easy to destroy now; and Revenant has even smaller durability/points ratio, which sounds like a very poor prospect. A couple of Storm Ravens or a trio of las-Predators huddled around Guilliman will probably drop it below half wounds in 1 shooting phase, and kill it in two.

Granted, although the idea behind a list like this is that you have less deployment drops and thus will go first.  A single Revenant can obliterate 3 units in a turn, so you take out those LasPreds or Stormravens.
Once you take out those threats, even a Guilliman aided list should struggle to put wounds on it, especially if you keep it outside 48" range.

I wouldn't bring this to a tourney ever, but in casual-competitive games, it should do fine.

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I think you do the same thing with two wraithknight, less range I agréé but with the Heavy wraith canon you coul probably have better targeting choice than Just the revenant. And since you have two, you could throw one right in your opponent face, and force them to target it, or they would die in cc, while you do your thing elsewhere. I would prefer this flexibility over the rigidity of only one revenant.

[SeekingOne]

Just reviewed the Titan's rules. Can't say I like them The worst thing is that it's enough to knock just 12 wounds off it to reduce it to BS4+. AND it is worse in melee than a single WK! Sure, its firepower is impressive, but for so many points...?!

I'd say, it would be definitely worth it if you specifically use it to create a list with like 3-4 deployment drops in 2k points (because you need to outdeploy marines, and for them 5 drops is norm). Otherwise it's doubtful.

Imho, Scorpion is our only super-heavy that looks really tasty.


Post Merge: August  4, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.BTW, I just noticed that titans have <Conclave> keyword instead of <Craftworld>. Does anybody know what it means?

[Galef]

What do you guys think about 2 Skathach WKs?  I really like that they can mix weapons so you can have Deathshroud cannon and Inferno lance on the same WK.

I was playing around with a list with 2 of those and 3 flyers.  It doesn't have enough CPs or models for objectives, but it only has 5 drops and both WKs can start in the Webway, thus they cannot be killed if the opponent gets a lucky Seize.

The tactic would to drop both WKs in turn one to delete specific threats and try to assault.  The flyers would deploy as far away as possible and aim for targets that the WKs either couldn't finish off, or aren't ideal for them.

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[Tweedz]

I like the look of Skathach WKs. Inferno Lances are nearly twice as effective as Heavy Wraithcannons on hard targets. Not completely convinced by the deathsroud cannon as it looks on paper (a single deathshroud is worse than a suncannon on multi-wound targets and slightly better on single wound ones, though a deathshroud has more versatility), but would be willing to give it a try.

[SeekingOne]

In my experience, a Wraithknight works best when it is used as a "tank" to absorb lots of damage and to keep the rest of your army alive.

The main strength of a WK (and about the only one it has now) lies in its capability to combine shooting AND assaults to great effect: once it has closed with the main enemy position, it can shoot something, then immediately assault something, then next turn step out of melee, shoot again, then assault again. Only fighting that way it can actually cause enough damage to justify its huge point cost, and can pose some serious danger to the enemy. 

So, when you use it to spearhead your attack and move it in decisively, it becomes a good "tank" -
 because it poses so much threat that it cannot be ignored. But, in order to be efficient as a "tank" it has to be able to absorb a lot of damage, and for that
1) it needs Fortune AND,
2) preferably, it needs to stay undamaged until it is Fortuned.

This makes a Skathach a very perspective choice on paper, because it can stay off table till your turn 1, and can IIRC even attempt an assault right on turn 1. As for two Skathaches - I personally would never do that, but that's because I like my armies to consist of many diverse units, and tying so many points in just two identical models is way too boring for me But from competitiveness standpoint it might be good.

The only thing that makes me doubt the efficiency of Skathaches is that they really need two guns to be good in shooting, and having two guns they have no invulnerable save, which is dangerous. But they are still worth trying imho.

[Tweedz]

I don't think a Skathach needs two guns to be effective. 1 Inferno lance at half range does more damage than two heavy wraith cannons and one deathshroud will kill more MEQ than a suncannon (though it will kill less primaris). On average it should be more effective in shooting and as effective in CC. But it is quite a step up in points as well...

[SeekingOne]

I don't think a Skathach needs two guns to be effective. 1 Inferno lance at half range does more damage than two heavy wraith cannons and one deathshroud will kill more MEQ than a suncannon (though it will kill less primaris). On average it should be more effective in shooting and as effective in CC. But it is quite a step up in points as well...

The more I play the 8th the more I see that in practice all weapons that make plain D6 shots are quite bad - unless you have multiples of them. Basically, when a unit has a single main weapon, and that weapon fires D6 shots, the only case when it has a chance to do something noticeable is when you roll 4+ shots. And that happens 50% of time, AND that usually fails to happen when you need it most. I guess I can put it this way: my gaming group and I usually play at what I'd characterise as "semi-competitive" level - far from all-out WAAC but still with decently optimised lists (something very close to what you can see on TabletopTactics channel on YouTube) - and at least at this semi-competitive level the awful unreliability that comes with "Heavy D6" type weapons just doesn't cut it. Again, unless you have multiples of them firing at the same target.

So, I'd never even consider fielding Skathach with just one Inferno lance. As for Deathshroud, it's better than Suncannon at short range, but I still don't think it's enough.

[Galef]

I don't think a Skathach needs two guns to be effective. 1 Inferno lance at half range does more damage than two heavy wraith cannons and one deathshroud will kill more MEQ than a suncannon (though it will kill less primaris). On average it should be more effective in shooting and as effective in CC. But it is quite a step up in points as well...

The more I play the 8th the more I see that in practice all weapons that make plain D6 shots are quite bad - unless you have multiples of them. Basically, when a unit has a single main weapon, and that weapon fires D6 shots, the only case when it has a chance to do something noticeable is when you roll 4+ shots. And that happens 50% of time, AND that usually fails to happen when you need it most. I guess I can put it this way: my gaming group and I usually play at what I'd characterise as "semi-competitive" level - far from all-out WAAC but still with decently optimised lists (something very close to what you can see on TabletopTactics channel on YouTube) - and at least at this semi-competitive level the awful unreliability that comes with "Heavy D6" type weapons just doesn't cut it. Again, unless you have multiples of them firing at the same target.

So, I'd never even consider fielding Skathach with just one Inferno lance. As for Deathshroud, it's better than Suncannon at short range, but I still don't think it's enough.

I agree, 1 gun Skathach WKs are a no-go.  I'd either take 2 Inferno Lances or 1 Inferno/1 Deathshroud cannon.
I really want to try out 2 WKs with Inferno lances dropping in on the first turn and vaporizing 3-4 vehicles.  Then the rest of the army mops up while the enemy focuses a ton on the WKs

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