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Author Topic: Warhammer 40K to hit chart  (Read 16661 times)

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Offline Brutoni

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2011, 10:31:44 AM »
Hve to say I am not sold.

The belief the points are balanced is flawed. Mainly because many specialist CC troops that cost the same amount as marines are in fact less effective than marines due to the S and T of marines combined with AS making them hard to kill in close combat due to the statistical difference in WS and S. For instance I'd rather be WS3 S4 I3 than WS4 S3 I4... I'll hit on 3's but wound on 5's.... 22% chance of a kill.. WS3 S4 I3 will hit on 4's wound on 3's... 33% chance to kill.

He goes first true... so out of 100 times he kill the opponent 22 times before the opponent can react.
Opponent therefore only has 78 times... he will still kill higher WS and I 26 times...

This disparity is shown clearly in many of the High WS and I troops.


EDITED:

Edited out due to being rather tangental.

[gmod]Oh hai! Please don't edit your post after you've been nudged about something. It's rather rude and disrupts the flow. For instance, now my comment made to your comment doesn't make any sense. So next time, if you'd be so kind, just take the nudge rather than hiding the evidence. K![/gmod]
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 08:56:54 PM by Barr'el O'Rum »

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2011, 03:01:19 PM »
[gmod] Not too difficult at all considering the entire F-22 fleet has been grounded the past few months. ;) Please get back to the topic at hand rather than this very narrow dark alley way the thread has wandered down innocently at first but now fully knowing they're on the wrong side of the tracks and the sun has gone down. [/gmod]
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Offline myles

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »
Hve to say I am not sold.

The belief the points are balanced is flawed. Mainly because many specialist CC troops that cost the same amount as marines are in fact less effective than marines due to the S and T of marines combined with AS making them hard to kill in close combat due to the statistical difference in WS and S. For instance I'd rather be WS3 S4 I3 than WS4 S3 I4... I'll hit on 3's but wound on 5's.... 22% chance of a kill.. WS3 S4 I3 will hit on 4's wound on 3's... 33% chance to kill.

He goes first true... so out of 100 times he kill the opponent 22 times before the opponent can react.
Opponent therefore only has 78 times... he will still kill higher WS and I 26 times...

This disparity is shown clearly in many of the High WS and I troops.

Since you're obviously thinking of a particular unit of "specialist CC troops", please stop beating around the bush and tell us what you're comparing to space marines. This will allow us to have a more focused and productive discussion.

Because honestly? I have no idea what you're talking about. There are several specialist close combat troops priced similarly to marines that I can think of, and of those there are a few that would not fare well against them. But what you're ignoring is that those choices usually are quite good indeed at killing something else. You seem to be falling into that most common of traps: Comparing everything to Space Marines because that's what you see all the time. The choices you're thinking of may not be points effective against tactical marines, but this does not necessarily mean that they are miscosted, it just means that they shouldn't be attacking tactical marines. This is pretty obvious, so without more information about your particular gripe, you aren't going to be able to demonstrate that your argument makes sense.

So, again, what unit are you thinking of that, for its points cost, stats, special rules, and equipment, should be good against Tactical Marines but isn't? Remembering that Tactical Marines are specifically designed to be effective and resilient against all opponents, where most other units are not. I am skeptical that WS is a main factor in the cost of whatever unit you are thinking of and very skeptical that their cost would be much diminished whilst their effectiveness remains mostly unaffected if their WS was lower.



Your statement about how you would rather swap a point of WS for a point of S is also not making sense to me, because there are certain guidelines to what S and T can be that have nothing to do with effectiveness. For example, it doesn't matter how much more effective a WS 2 T4 Eldar Storm Guardian would be than a WS3 T3 one, because there are no T4 Eldar.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 05:45:28 PM by myles »
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Offline Isil

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2011, 09:58:15 PM »
Wow, how did this thread get so derailed? 

Anyway, Isil, I have a question about your revised to-hit chart. You have less than half WS hitting on 6+, equal WS hitting on 4+, higher WS hitting on 3+, and more than double WS hitting on 2+. This is all in line with the current system in terms of where the cutoffs are, so it makes sense. What I don't understand is how you have  the 5+ to hit range starting at two lower. This seems rather arbitrary, is there some particular reason for this?

The concept behind what I was trying to do with my chart was to bring back the 2-6 range which I had always felt was a fair range but to follow the balancing concept I feel exists within the chart in current usage, I feel that the first step to go from a 4+ to a 5+ at a difference of 2 and then from a 5+ to a 6+ at a difference of on average 5. from a 4+ to a 3+ at the 1 that exists not and from a 3+ to a 2+ at roughly a difference of 4-5. Does that help you understand what I was thinking?

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Offline Omnichron

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Re: Warhammer 40K to hit chart
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2011, 06:19:10 AM »
The belief the points are balanced is flawed. Mainly because many specialist CC troops that cost the same amount as marines are in fact less effective than marines due to the S and T of marines combined with AS making them hard to kill in close combat due to the statistical difference in WS and S.

Well, we could turn it around, terminators against incubis... Most would know the result of such a matchup. I see the point you are making, that WS is just much less important than most other stats, and I think it might be the least important stat of them all. I still think that you have to look at the whole picture of things though, and I definitly don't think of Marines as a big unbalanced problem with my Dark Eldar CC units. Sure, they are tougher to kill, but my wyches manages to take them down well enough, even against the CC marines, the vanguard. In that last example, you see again that you have to look at the combinations of stats for close combat, just not at one stat, and if you increase the importance of WS by new rules that makes it even more powerful, you have to adjust the other stats or abilities of all races with higher or lower WS than the standard 3-4


 


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