Topic: [Split from another topic] Noah's Flood

[Salami]

Why don't you pick up the book and learn why God won't save us from these things. (yet)

I did read the bible, and I did learn why god won't save us from these things. It's because he does not like us. Jezus may, but god doesn't. He's a harsh, harsh mofo.

I'm wondering why this rather recent (when compared to other religions) belief from some weird middleeastern cult (which was what it was back then) is now so powerful. It had many competitors as part of the new wave, like zoroastrianism, sol invictus and mithridatism.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Not little babies... They are without sin unless you have a truly devious mind...

"I Don't Feel A a Need to Read other books"
Sin of Pride...

Assorted bibles? You fail to realise the beauty of eastern religion is in non canonity. I.e they are philosophical. If you can sufficiently argue that the sky is pink as long as you back it up philosophically hinduism and buddhism let it fly. The bible you use to tell you how to live your life. A 2000 year old book cannot tell you how to live your life. A man with a fancy collar can't tell you how to live your life. Only you can.

And you just created the sin of ignorance by the statement of that. You have no right to speak of religion without knowing anything of the alternatives. Its not even a case of "I have'nt done it cause i was lazy, or could'nt be asked... Its  I refuse to read other books because they may differ with my ideas and may teach me something..."

And whether you believe in Christ or not you can't not believe in Buddha since we have his remains... Its like not believing in Ramses or Abraham Lincoln... Its a tad difficult to disprove his existance since his body is actually interred in Bodhisattva in Bihar minus a few relics in Sri Lanka and Tibet.

Zoroastrians and Mithridats were persecuted extremely by Christians and then by muslims. Zoroastrians fled to India where their jewish like marraige laws (Jews can only marry other jews by religion) ensured that they have a huge amount of genetic disorders due to their inbreeding. Their bodies are now so toxic they have to be cremated because of the damage they cause to the ecosystem (Pharsis leave their bodies on towers to be scavenged, their bodies contain high amounts of heavy metals causing heavy metal poisoning to birds killing them many of these birds are endangered and heavy metal poisoning in deadly to local ecosystems so quite a few pharsis are now opting for cremation). Freddie Mercury was for starts...

[Imperial Kelly]

I don't need to know the alternatives.  Beware of false gods and false prophets.  Pride has nothing to do with it.  That's a weird corolation.

UVR:  The reason christianity has picked up so quickly is because it is the "The truth, the way, and the light"   



edit: fixed spelling

[mrspungebob]

Not looking at alternatives is not very wise i think. Its like after Newton and his classical physics, how wise would it be to say "This works, let us never look at any alternatives. This works so good that there cannot be anything better."?

MODIFY:

The only two risks you are running is to:
1) Actually find a better alternative.
2) Come out stronger in your current faith.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

More pride? When you start calling other religions false without proof its pretty much pride.

Care to explain your logic?

The truth? The Way and the Light?

100 years ago everyone knew that "it was true that white people we superior to everyone else".
1000 years ago everyone knew that the earth was flat
1000 years ago people believed lightning was the judgement of God (which explains why he hated the church so much...)

This is no different...

[Salami]

UVR:  The reason christianity has picked up so quickly is because it is the "The truth, the way, and the light"   

Please, no joking. I'm serious. Why would one obscure cult from a faraway place (easterners were still considered unmanly and unworthy, in comparison to the northern barbarians and the romans themselves), win over, I believe, around 12 other candidates, some of whom where more popular for a while?

Also, people knew the world was flat thousands of years ago. The 'flat world' was attributed to them in the 19th century, to make earlier people, especially middle ages people, look foolish.

Also, the 'beware other gods' command is of colurse an excellent way of keeping your followers in line. If they don't learn anything, they can't defect to another faith. This may provide an answer. Most of the other religions weren't as elitist and exclusive. Because christianity discouraged checking out other religions, they could only grow, as whomever remained inside wouldn't get out. Especially if they grew up in it, properly indoctrinated in this belief of exclusivism.

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

I fail to see how preaching peace and love while encouraging the genocide of people who are'nt "israelites" are anything but opposite. Care to explain the peace and love of that?

The conquest of Caanan was for the Israelites' protection, nothing more. If the Caananites were still alive, the Israelites would start worshipping the pagan gods. Under normal circumstances, this would be alright, but they were the Israelites; they had special responsibility under the law.

These population's genetic differences are from years and years of genetic breeding under set conditions. You don't become chinese without a few thousand years of evolutionary mutations under the conditions in mongolia and steppe china. You don't become Indian without the harsh sun, and shifting seasons.

Eh? Father does'nt mean father. So well we can simply say "Son" does'nt mean male offspring and that jesus was'nt male offspring of god.

Dude, i gave Noah couple of thousand years. 4000 BC to 6000 BC. There is still no way he could have populated the earth from 10 people due to no medical facilities and the fact in a few generations his offspring would be genetic equivalent of hillbillies. And it still does'nt explain how people got to Australia, Asiatic islands and North America... Unless his ancestors were in the habit of navigating large stretches of ocean... These people date back to 14,000 BC during the ice age when you could walk from siberia to alaska... And for sure Noah noah could'nt have built a boat back then with stone tools that could support a horse's weight let alone the entire animals of the world...

Check out how long it took to build the titanic. Imagine building that without a huge crew of ship builders... by hand tools... Yes so its not entirely believable. More than likely Noah just had a big boat and saved a bunch of lifestock.

"Son" in Hebrew only had to mean "descendant." It could mean a direct father, but there could have been a lot of skipping of generations. Therefore Noah was probably pretty ancient.

And Noah took 100 years to build the Ark. Before the flood, the conditions on Earth were quite different (for instance, it never really rained, water just came out of the ground and irrigated the land), and Noah was about 600 years old when he entered the Ark. (That's nothing: Methuselah was about 969 years old when he died)

And also Human beings in Australia and North America went over there prior to all the "flood stories" and so probably have had no correlation to the occurence of the flood.

And care to explain how a kangaroo would get to Israel? They sure don't swim very well.

The Biblical theory is that humans were all living together sometime after the flood, they arrogantly tried to build the Tower of Babel, God confused them with language, and they were "scattered over the face of the Earth." Given that there are generations skipped, this would mean the Tower of Babel incident would be a bit before 14,000 BC. Add to that the time it would take for Noah's sons to populate the Earth, I would put Noah sometime around 16,000 BC.

Do you know how many animals are there in the world?

Species, my friend. Just species. And there were a whole lot less then than there are now.

Note: I accept evolution for the explanation of variety of species. I do not accept it as an origin, or as diversity between kindgoms or phyla.

Who are noah's families kids going to marry? Each other... And their kids? Each other again. What you are doing is polarising every single genetic defect into the next generation. In 5 or so generations you would have so many disorders that your mortality rate and evolutionary viability begins to suffer.

Noah's three sons already had wives who went with them into the ark. Total number of passengers were 8: Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and all their wives.

Not to mention the fish would have died. Freshwater fish in salt water, drown... Saloutrageously sexy lycra-clad pixieer fish in fresh water drown too... They can't keep their osmotic balance.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure. I'll look into it, though!

Why would one obscure cult from a faraway place (easterners were still considered unmanly and unworthy, in comparison to the northern barbarians and the romans themselves), win over, I believe, around 12 other candidates, some of whom where more popular for a while?

Jesus was pretty popular with the people, my friend. That's why the religious leaders wanted him dead.

[Arcas]

The conquest of Caanan was for the Israelites' protection, nothing more. If the Caananites were still alive, the Israelites would start worshipping the pagan gods. Under normal circumstances, this would be alright, but they were the Israelites; they had special responsibility under the law.

...and this is supposed to justify genocide? Just deporting them would have sufficed. Or any other form of countermeasure.

The Tower of Babel is yet another thing that just doesn't make sense:

Genesis 11:6 "And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

Are we to believe that God felt threatened by a bronze age civilization building a brick tower?

[Salami]

I fail to see how preaching peace and love while encouraging the genocide of people who are'nt "israelites" are anything but opposite. Care to explain the peace and love of that?

The conquest of Caanan was for the Israelites' protection, nothing more. If the Caananites were still alive, the Israelites would start worshipping the pagan gods. Under normal circumstances, this would be alright, but they were the Israelites; they had special responsibility under the law.

Once more we see how god, the supposedly peaceful deity sends his minions to kill a (possibly) innocent people to protect his dominance over the israelites.

These population's genetic differences are from years and years of genetic breeding under set conditions. You don't become chinese without a few thousand years of evolutionary mutations under the conditions in mongolia and steppe china. You don't become Indian without the harsh sun, and shifting seasons.

Eh? Father does'nt mean father. So well we can simply say "Son" does'nt mean male offspring and that jesus was'nt male offspring of god.

Dude, i gave Noah couple of thousand years. 4000 BC to 6000 BC. There is still no way he could have populated the earth from 10 people due to no medical facilities and the fact in a few generations his offspring would be genetic equivalent of hillbillies. And it still does'nt explain how people got to Australia, Asiatic islands and North America... Unless his ancestors were in the habit of navigating large stretches of ocean... These people date back to 14,000 BC during the ice age when you could walk from siberia to alaska... And for sure Noah noah could'nt have built a boat back then with stone tools that could support a horse's weight let alone the entire animals of the world...

Check out how long it took to build the titanic. Imagine building that without a huge crew of ship builders... by hand tools... Yes so its not entirely believable. More than likely Noah just had a big boat and saved a bunch of lifestock.

"Son" in Hebrew only had to mean "descendant." It could mean a direct father, but there could have been a lot of skipping of generations. Therefore Noah was probably pretty ancient.

And Noah took 100 years to build the Ark. Before the flood, the conditions on Earth were quite different (for instance, it never really rained, water just came out of the ground and irrigated the land), and Noah was about 600 years old when he entered the Ark. (That's nothing: Methuselah was about 969 years old when he died)

Ah yes, the fact that for some reason, people in the old days lived impossibly long. This is logical, considering the advanced medical technology of the time, as well as the excellent social services and focus on health. The overwhelming peace would also have helped. Humans don't live that long. Not even now. Especially not then.

Also, your claim that rain didn't exist before that is flawed. Rain has been around since the forming of the earth itself. It is a vital part of the ecosystem. Without rain, the entire world would be reduced to desert. The rest would dry up. Water coming out of the ground is not suited for irrigating. It's not fresh, and usually loaded with metals.

And also Human beings in Australia and North America went over there prior to all the "flood stories" and so probably have had no correlation to the occurence of the flood.

And care to explain how a kangaroo would get to Israel? They sure don't swim very well.

The Biblical theory is that humans were all living together sometime after the flood, they arrogantly tried to build the Tower of Babel, God confused them with language, and they were "scattered over the face of the Earth." Given that there are generations skipped, this would mean the Tower of Babel incident would be a bit before 14,000 BC. Add to that the time it would take for Noah's sons to populate the Earth, I would put Noah sometime around 16,000 BC.

This is blatantly not true, because even before 12.000 BC people were already widespread. Take for instance the complete colonization of Greece and turkey, as evidenced by digs.
Greek records even found proto-celts as far away as the British Isles. Evidence of humans in Asia is also way before that.
Languages from those days also differed. I'm thinking they either meant it metaphorically, or they didn't mean everything. Or they were just wrong about the number of people.

Aslo, 2000 years

Do you know how many animals are there in the world?

Species, my friend. Just species. And there were a whole lot less then than there are now.

Note: I accept evolution for the explanation of variety of species. I do not accept it as an origin, or as diversity between kindgoms or phyla.

Actually, there were a lot MORE back then. Human civilization has drastically increased the rate of extinction. Evolution takes a LONG time. Far more than a mere 14000 years.

Who are noah's families kids going to marry? Each other... And their kids? Each other again. What you are doing is polarising every single genetic defect into the next generation. In 5 or so generations you would have so many disorders that your mortality rate and evolutionary viability begins to suffer.

Noah's three sons already had wives who went with them into the ark. Total number of passengers were 8: Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and all their wives.

That won't solve anything. You need hundreds, preferably thousands to weed out any significant chance of birth defects and genetic disorders. We have a lot of (strict) Muslim immigrant here in the Netherlands, and many of them marry within the family. The rate of genetic disorders is very high.

Why would one obscure cult from a faraway place (easterners were still considered unmanly and unworthy, in comparison to the northern barbarians and the romans themselves), win over, I believe, around 12 other candidates, some of whom where more popular for a while?

Jesus was pretty popular with the people, my friend. That's why the religious leaders wanted him dead.

So? It's still only limited to the Hebrews, who were definitely NOT a major player back then. The others were also very popular, including with the people. Also, my earlier statement:

Also, the 'beware other gods' command is of colurse an excellent way of keeping your followers in line. If they don't learn anything, they can't defect to another faith. This may provide an answer. Most of the other religions weren't as elitist and exclusive. Because christianity discouraged checking out other religions, they could only grow, as whomever remained inside wouldn't get out. Especially if they grew up in it, properly indoctrinated in this belief of exclusivism.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

The conquest of Caanan was for the Israelites' protection, nothing more. If the Caananites were still alive, the Israelites would start worshipping the pagan gods. Under normal circumstances, this would be alright, but they were the Israelites; they had special responsibility under the law.

I believe the same excuse has been used against the armenians by the turks, the jews by the nazis and by the americans against the vietnamese. Genocide is genocide no matter what words you dress it up in. And we can always use the ultimate "god is a bastard" argument when he killed children after hardening the Pharaoh's heart to say no...

"Son" in Hebrew only had to mean "descendant." It could mean a direct father, but there could have been a lot of skipping of generations. Therefore Noah was probably pretty ancient.

And Noah took 100 years to build the Ark. Before the flood, the conditions on Earth were quite different (for instance, it never really rained, water just came out of the ground and irrigated the land), and Noah was about 600 years old when he entered the Ark. (That's nothing: Methuselah was about 969 years old when he died)

Wait so Son in hebrew means descendent... Then why do you read the bible in english... Is'nt that cheating? And should'nt you be reading atleast from Latin? Or Greek? I mean come on thats ludicrous. If I made the statement that "This Car is a Lemon" do you say "Holy Crap the car is a GIANT LEMON!" or "This car is a terrible con". Either you decide on what you exactly mean or we will say Hebrew for son means descendant and so therefore Jesus is'nt the son of god...

You are saying a 100 year old man spent a 100 years building a wooden ship... Care to tell me what magic wood did he use? Cause 10 years of dead wood and it rots rather quickly... 20 years and you have massive holes in it. And 50 to 100 years you are looking at a shrivelled up piece of wood. Hundred years or not the boat would have rotted by the time he finished it. And it would have collapsed on itself since wood is'nt exactly good at making large framed boats.

And the fact you have just said that a man is capable of living to the age of 900 boggles the imagination. Care to explain the science behind that? Humans have a set lifespan due to the flaw in mitotic replication in multicellular eukaryotes. The ends of the chromasomes are'nt copied and eventually you start losing genes and get old and have errors. Therefore you are saying that they could "magically live" to 900...

Oh and I am not an archaeologist but this is the "amusing bit"....
How many 200 year old male skeletons have been exhumed during archaeology... None... And considering they would have been buried and not cremated its safe to say a good few of them would have turned up.

Water came out of the earth...
Yes God can break the laws of physics to be totally illogical.
Hey I actually can do that trick too.
Ask any australian here what an artesian well is. Water... That comes out of the earth. Dear god man that describes all the wells in the middle east, where it does'nt rain and water comes out of the earth, not from the sky. If you live in a desert that tends to be the case.

The Biblical theory is that humans were all living together sometime after the flood, they arrogantly tried to build the Tower of Babel, God confused them with language, and they were "scattered over the face of the Earth." Given that there are generations skipped, this would mean the Tower of Babel incident would be a bit before 14,000 BC. Add to that the time it would take for Noah's sons to populate the Earth, I would put Noah sometime around 16,000 BC.

Which would make Noah a stone age hunter gatherer... Now this is really ridiculous. He would have built a ship the size of the titanic with rocks... Well done...

And you proved once again that God is a total and utter bastard... Its like going up to a bunch of kids playing together. Kicking one when they are'nt looking, then blaming another kid and running off... What the hell would a giant tower built by stone age men have to challenge god with... Rocks?

Species, my friend. Just species. And there were a whole lot less then than there are now.

Note: I accept evolution for the explanation of variety of species. I do not accept it as an origin, or as diversity between kindgoms or phyla.

And how many species of animals are there? Its easy to say Goat, Donkey, Cow but when you realise that Bighorn, Merino and Himalayan goats are all different species, Onager, Wild, Grey are all donkeys and Bovus and Zebu are all cows you begin to realise how dumb your argument is. There are'nt that many BIG animal species. Its our sheer arrogance to believe that bigger means superior. But consider this. ANIMALS include, birds, amphibians (which need land), reptiles, and of course insects. Insects who have more species than many species have members... That is a hell of a lot of animals. And plants... What they too live... and they would need to be taken along with you... Plus cutting down the population to "just two" individuals is a sure way to ensure destruction. Why do you think the big fuss with californian condors is there? Just 18 birds... Surely enough to repopulate the wild eh? True if genetics did'nt exist... When you drop the population of animals to below a certain level extinction is guaranteed. No one can dodge that... Just look at Pharsis. They are dying out cause they have hit that level. Unless they outbreed and maintain their culture their "original people" will have all died out.

Actually evolution does explain diversity between all living things. Its pretty logical in that aspect. It has do with the evolution of endosymbiotes mitochondria and chloroplastae and linked in with bacterial and archaea evolution. What you don't think bacteria can't evolve? And speciate evolution is seen in things such as Xenopus Laevis and Tropicalis (Frog species created 50 years ago in the wild) and the infamous MRSA (new species of skin bacteria that is lethal in infection).

Noah's three sons already had wives who went with them into the ark. Total number of passengers were 8: Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and all their wives.

Which would make us all as inbred as hell. Just look at the royal family of europe to see what mild inbreeding has done. Just look at a great dane to see what "real inbreeding has done." OR at Pharsees. The level of inbreeding would havebeen phenomenal. Marrying your cousins is idiocy. Always has, always will be.

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

I'll try and make this quick.

Are we to believe that God felt threatened by a bronze age civilization building a brick tower?

It was the arrogance that got to God more.

Wait so Son in hebrew means descendent... Then why do you read the bible in english... Is'nt that cheating? And should'nt you be reading atleast from Latin? Or Greek? I mean come on thats ludicrous. If I made the statement that "This Car is a Lemon" do you say "Holy Crap the car is a GIANT LEMON!" or "This car is a terrible con". Either you decide on what you exactly mean or we will say Hebrew for son means descendant and so therefore Jesus is'nt the son of god...

You expect me to learn Hebrew, Latin, or Greek just to read the Bible? The Bible is in different translation for the pure purpose that people can understand it.
The Inuit have about 200 words for snow. They probably don't understand how we get by with one. Besides, not everything translates directly. Try translating mendokusai, or natsukashii, effectively into one word in English. I've tried, and I can't do it, though I understand what they mean.

And the fact you have just said that a man is capable of living to the age of 900 boggles the imagination. Care to explain the science behind that? Humans have a set lifespan due to the flaw in mitotic replication in multicellular eukaryotes. The ends of the chromasomes are'nt copied and eventually you start losing genes and get old and have errors. Therefore you are saying that they could "magically live" to 900...

We don't quite have a way of scientifically understanding this, as we weren't there back then. Mind you, only scientific extrapolation shows that people lived shorter lives. I am assuming that for both scientific fact and Biblical claims to be true, there would have to be something that changed in the Earth's conditions before and after the deluge.

Ask any australian here what an artesian well is. Water... That comes out of the earth. Dear god man that describes all the wells in the middle east, where it does'nt rain and water comes out of the earth, not from the sky. If you live in a desert that tends to be the case.

True. I knew that already. But that was just the case everywhere universally.

Which would make Noah a stone age hunter gatherer... Now this is really ridiculous. He would have built a ship the size of the titanic with rocks... Well done...

As I said, that's only from extrapolation. Pre-flood civilizations could have been different, maybe even more advanced than what came afterwards. Reduction to only one family whose head of the family turned out to just own a bunch of grapes and get drunk and lie down in his tent naked would probably not have all the benefits of those pre-flood civilization.
Back to hunting and gathering...

And how many species of animals are there? Its easy to say Goat, Donkey, Cow but when you realise that Bighorn, Merino and Himalayan goats are all different species, Onager, Wild, Grey are all donkeys and Bovus and Zebu are all cows you begin to realise how dumb your argument is. There are'nt that many BIG animal species. Its our sheer arrogance to believe that bigger means superior. But consider this. ANIMALS include, birds, amphibians (which need land), reptiles, and of course insects. Insects who have more species than many species have members... That is a hell of a lot of animals. And plants... What they too live... and they would need to be taken along with you...

This is just a possibility (and same for all other of my arguments), but I would say given a couple myriad (10,000) years, the various species would have come across by then.
Note that there are only two species of elephants, and they are quite similar that it's entirely plausible that it could have happened.

What you don't think bacteria can't evolve? And speciate evolution is seen in things such as Xenopus Laevis and Tropicalis (Frog species created 50 years ago in the wild) and the infamous MRSA (new species of skin bacteria that is lethal in infection).

Exactly what I'm saying! But I think it's not too possible to explain the jump we get from nematodes to vertabrates with several phyla in the geologically short timespan.

This is blatantly not true, because even before 12.000 BC people were already widespread. Take for instance the complete colonization of Greece and turkey, as evidenced by digs.

Maybe more, then...

[Mud Man!]

IMO, Noah's Flood is an example of literary foreshadowring for the New Testament. The flood represents human sin, the ark represents the crucifixtion. The ark, like the crucifixtion, was the only way to escape sin (represented by the flood). Like Christ, most people did not choose the ark. And drowned in their sins because of it.

I do not believe it as a literal historical account.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

I'll try and make this quick.

Are we to believe that God felt threatened by a bronze age civilization building a brick tower?

It was the arrogance that got to God more.

What arrogance. They hoped to reach God by building a tall tower... They were stone age technology and their tower was probably 3 to 5 stories high and then got hit by lightning. Remember they would have thought that was god. And lightning really does a number when buildings are hit.

For anyone who has no idea of what lightning is that is essentially someone supernatural doing a number on the "tower".

You expect me to learn Hebrew, Latin, or Greek just to read the Bible? The Bible is in different translation for the pure purpose that people can understand it.
The Inuit have about 200 words for snow. They probably don't understand how we get by with one. Besides, not everything translates directly. Try translating mendokusai, or natsukashii, effectively into one word in English. I've tried, and I can't do it, though I understand what they mean.

Er... yeah? I have to learn latin and greek to study medicine, i don't see the problem at all. Its just another language. Oh and the "inuit thing" is actually a lie. Their words for snow consist of different qualities of the snow, so firm snow, powedery snow and so on. Since its integral to their lives its better to have a word for it. The statement is allegedly incorrect since what they do have his words like "this, that, and that thing inside, that thing over there..." Not the infamous "20 words for snow". Oh and if you checked the original latin version of the bibles the difference between son and descendent would be obvious and we would'nt have this issue of "skipping generations".

And coming from someone who has to learn latin and greek... The Bible was in latin until translated cause the monks began to have the monopoly in the dark ages over latin. However if you could read it you can read the "Originals" and so have less problem. It was'nt accessibility, it had to do with control of people. It was Guttenburg's Bible that was truly "for the people" since it was cheap to manufacture due to moveable type.

We don't quite have a way of scientifically understanding this, as we weren't there back then. Mind you, only scientific extrapolation shows that people lived shorter lives. I am assuming that for both scientific fact and Biblical claims to be true, there would have to be something that changed in the Earth's conditions before and after the deluge.

No actual extrapolation shows this. We find bones that belong to young men in graves without damage you then know that they died of disease. So while these 20 to 30 year olds were snuffing it you claim a mystical race of men could live to 900... And "We Just Can't Explain It" does'nt fly anywhere. I can't write an exam with that answer and expect to gain any marks.

Difference in earth's conditions are explained by geologists with giant drills in antarctica. Since that place is a giant history of the past few hundred thousand years due to its ice it can tell you what climates were like. Oh and aging has nothing to do with environment. It has everything to do with the food we eat, and the telomeres. And if "noah" had long telomeres he would'nt be human and so this argument is based on "another species".

True. I knew that already. But that was just the case everywhere universally.

How do you know it was the case universally since the bible mentions only the middle east.

As I said, that's only from extrapolation. Pre-flood civilizations could have been different, maybe even more advanced than what came afterwards. Reduction to only one family whose head of the family turned out to just own a bunch of grapes and get drunk and lie down in his tent naked would probably not have all the benefits of those pre-flood civilization.
Back to hunting and gathering...

And you base this logic on? I mean they may have been more advanced... So advanced that all their technology magically vanishes after the flood? Leaving only stone tools... OR they magically turn into stone tools after lack of use but when a real pre noah man picks it up this stone axe turns into a magic chainsaw... Come on tis silly and based on you making up stuff not actual evidence. Any proof?

This is just a possibility (and same for all other of my arguments), but I would say given a couple myriad (10,000) years, the various species would have come across by then.
Note that there are only two species of elephants, and they are quite similar that it's entirely plausible that it could have happened.

There are technically three species in the elephant family. And there were four until recently. The Two elephants, the Javanese Elephant (which was hunted to extinction due to its pygmy size) and the rock hyraxes...

Evolution only occurs in large genetically diverse populations due to large numbers of chances for mutation and allele frequency movements. It can't occur when you have two animals and set up an inbreeding program. The elephants more than likely would have developed an massive genetic disorder and died. I mean you can't use evolution to explain it when a massive disorder would have killed the elephants off. Did you not listen to the idea of minimum population before extinction? You don't kill all the animals but if you kill enough their own reduced gene pool will do the rest. It works especially well in large animals that don't breed quickly.

Exactly what I'm saying! But I think it's not too possible to explain the jump we get from nematodes to vertabrates with several phyla in the geologically short timespan.

It is and is entirely possible. There is something called notochordate nematodes which possess a spinal column. And nematodes have to go through crustacean, before spinal column occurs.

Maybe more, then...

And there is the whole large populations of people who went to australia and India and China. Indian civilisation was not just about Indus...

[Arcas]

 

It was the arrogance that got to God more.

...God himself said there that they basically can achieve anything: "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

I don't see how you read arrogance of the people as a cause into this - it's God fearing that mankind might actually succeed with that undertaking.

[Salami]

IMO, Noah's Flood is an example of literary foreshadowring for the New Testament. The flood represents human sin, the ark represents the crucifixtion. The ark, like the crucifixtion, was the only way to escape sin (represented by the flood). Like Christ, most people did not choose the ark. And drowned in their sins because of it.

I do not believe it as a literal historical account.

I concur. Most of the stories in the bible make more sense if you view them as just that. A story with a moral message. Jezus did the same thing. Think of it as an elaborate metaphor, which makes certain things easier to understand. Even back then, there would have been loads of people who would've found error's with that. I think over the years, due to the sacrosanct nature of the bible, people determined that everything in the bible MUST be true.

Also, about elephants. Hannibal and the carthaginians used north african elephants, which were made extinct to to their immmense effect in warfare.

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

What arrogance. They hoped to reach God by building a tall tower... They were stone age technology and their tower was probably 3 to 5 stories high and then got hit by lightning. Remember they would have thought that was god. And lightning really does a number when buildings are hit.

For anyone who has no idea of what lightning is that is essentially someone supernatural doing a number on the "tower".

Everyone in the world working together to build a tower probably would be more than 3 to 5 stories high. God  probably wasn't threatened by them, but annoyed by their n00bness.

Er... yeah? I have to learn latin and greek to study medicine, i don't see the problem at all. Its just another language. Oh and the "inuit thing" is actually a lie. Their words for snow consist of different qualities of the snow, so firm snow, powedery snow and so on. Since its integral to their lives its better to have a word for it. The statement is allegedly incorrect since what they do have his words like "this, that, and that thing inside, that thing over there..." Not the infamous "20 words for snow". Oh and if you checked the original latin version of the bibles the difference between son and descendent would be obvious and we would'nt have this issue of "skipping generations".

And coming from someone who has to learn latin and greek... The Bible was in latin until translated cause the monks began to have the monopoly in the dark ages over latin. However if you could read it you can read the "Originals" and so have less problem. It was'nt accessibility, it had to do with control of people. It was Guttenburg's Bible that was truly "for the people" since it was cheap to manufacture due to moveable type.

Well I don't have to study latin and greek to get medical treatment! Sure, if I were to become a Biblical scholar, I would learn NT Greek. But the Bible needs to be accessible to everyone (not just a privileged few interpreting it for the masses).

No actual extrapolation shows this. We find bones that belong to young men in graves without damage you then know that they died of disease. So while these 20 to 30 year olds were snuffing it you claim a mystical race of men could live to 900... And "We Just Can't Explain It" does'nt fly anywhere. I can't write an exam with that answer and expect to gain any marks.

Could have been after Noah. After the flood, people started living considerably shorter, with a max of 120 years, but that was a highly unreachable max.

And you base this logic on? I mean they may have been more advanced... So advanced that all their technology magically vanishes after the flood? Leaving only stone tools... OR they magically turn into stone tools after lack of use but when a real pre noah man picks it up this stone axe turns into a magic chainsaw... Come on tis silly and based on you making up stuff not actual evidence. Any proof?

What I meant was, they would probably use stone tools, but they would use a bunch of wood as well. The wood wouldn't stay with the stone tools.

Note that this is pure theory, and I am constantly refining it based on your objections.

[Midnight Walker]

[Everyone in the world working together to build a tower probably would be more than 3 to 5 stories high. God  probably wasn't threatened by them, but annoyed by their n00bness.

Well that's nice. That's what we like to see in an almighty power worthy of our worship.
"Hey buddy, Fancy a game?"
"Sure!"
*little noob proudly sets out his new, but badly painted models*
"Pah! N00B! I smash your crappy models!"
*Elitist SMASH!*

Note that this is pure theory, and I am constantly refining it based on your objections.

Does that mean you're just grasping at straws to justify your argument?

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

Does that mean you're just grasping at straws to justify your argument?

I'm just analyzing all the possibilities and seeing what works and what doesn't.

[Salami]

Does that mean you're just grasping at straws to justify your argument?

I'm just analyzing all the possibilities and seeing what works and what doesn't.

This is good. This means Gaara is willing to consider it from a scientist's standpoint. Theories are not meant to be sacrosanct. They are meant to be altered or discarded if evidence proves them wrong. Like the mountain of facts we have.

[Mud Man!]

I concur. Most of the stories in the bible make more sense if you view them as just that. A story with a moral message. Jezus did the same thing. Think of it as an elaborate metaphor, which makes certain things easier to understand. Even back then, there would have been loads of people who would've found error's with that. I think over the years, due to the sacrosanct nature of the bible, people determined that everything in the bible MUST be true.

Also, about elephants. Hannibal and the carthaginians used north african elephants, which were made extinct to to their immmense effect in warfare.

Well the story itself was written centuries before Jesus was born, so one would have to believe in Christianity do believe that explanation, would one not?