News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: The Lost And The Damned  (Read 10503 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
The Lost And The Damned
« on: April 24, 2015, 08:37:15 PM »
So begins my latest forge project; a decent army list for The Lost And The Damned.

It's a shame that GW don't make these guys as in truth they should be one of their most common foes.  I suppose it's because there's such a huge potential for variety.  Even more so than the IG.

Forge World do make a list for them but in my opinion it falls short, despite there some very cool ideas in there.  I actually used to have a small force of renegades myself as well.  The cool looking Forge World ones, but I ended up selling most of them unfortunately.  I wish I didn't do that. :P

First of all, I need to know where non Astartes mortal followers of Chaos actually stand.  I have Codex Chaos Marines, and I know what the Cultists in there can take.  But can a normal man/mutant be a Chaos Lord?  Can rogue Pyskers be Sorcerers?  Obviously they'll never be held in the same regard as Chaos Marines but surely they can still make it pretty big yes?  And could they ascend to Demonhood?

See for HQ, I was aiming to just make 'normal' versions of Sorcerers and Dark Apostles (and maybe Lords).  And if Demonhood is possible, Demon Princes too.

For basic units I was thinking of something like the Chaos Cultists from Codex Chaos Marines.  However, they would actually start off with a worse stat line, but with purchasable upgrades they can become better.  Something like:

WS:2 BS:2 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 LD:D6+4 Cost:1pt (yeah, you read me right.  1pt per model!)

Wargear: Improvised Armour (+6 save), Autopistol, Close Combat Weapon.

Some things to bare in mind.  They will have the Uncertain Worth Special Rule, which means that their Leadership is generated the first time they have to take a Leadership test (that's what the D6+4 thing is all about).  This is taken straight from forge world and it's so fluffy I have to keep it!

Next up, it should be possible to upgrade these dregs into more powerful troops.  In addition to Chaos Marks for example, I was also thinking of things like:

Militarum Training: The unit is either Rogue Planetary Defense, suitably well trained Cultists, or even full blown Traitor Guard.  The condition to purchase this would be the unit has to take frag grenades and upgrade their improvised armor to flak armor, and for +1pt you gain +1 WS and +1 BS.  My exact wording for this rule would be the unit gains +1 BS, and if it has a WS, it gains +1 to that as well.  Because LatD vehicles will also start off at BS:2.

Mutants: Let the player purchase mutations from a list, but the more they buy the more setbacks they get hit with.  Turn your guys into monsters capable of going toe to tow with Orks?  Too bad they're so beastly they lost the ability to shoot guns.  But hey, Beastmen are cool! :D

Witches: Turn them into units of Pyskers with a wide range of powers to chose from.  Similar to IG pysker squads but with the option to upgrade to higher levels (because unlike the Imperium they don't put brakes on their powers).

Heretec: Evil wannable Skitarii.  Gain FNP 6+ from their bionic implants.  Might go even further than that.

Obviously not all of these abilities will be able to be mixed together.  What do people think so far?


Offline khaine

  • This happens when I am bored.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
  • Country: england
  • Truly Dread
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 11:00:47 AM »
Some interesting ideas.

1pt for a cultist is probably a bit cheap as they stand, take away their weapons and armour and start them at 1pt maybe? Make the basic guys as much cannon fodder for the Cultists with auto guns as the autogun cultists would be for Marines?

Uncertain Worth is a great rule, it's also a real PITA as you have to keep track of which  unit has rolled what leadership value. I'd be inclined to go for something where every phase you have to test you roll to see what their Ld is, but bump it to 1D6+5 with a total of 11 being Fearless.

The military training idea works well, pretty much what FW has already.

Mutant idea sounds great, 2 ways you could go with that: Make it a pay in the list permanent upgrade type of thing or go Skitari style with their doctrines as each turn the fickle Gods bless the Mutants in different ways, +1 toughness/slow and purposeful, +1WS -1BS… Plenty of things you could do for that.

Witch covens also sound interesting, one of the old Chaos Codex had Thralls that a Chaos psyker could sacrifice during the game to cast extra powers and I could see a LatD form of that, either killing members of their own units to power up, or just any friendly unit that is close.

  There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed

You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


"Childhood is when you idolize Batman. Adulthood is when you realize that the Joker makes more sense."

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 12:03:21 PM »
You can't have a 1 point model. They're already better than Grecthin, and on par with conscripts, with better leadership!

A 5+ save is effectively equal to a 6+ save, when you think about it. Where will it matter? Assault? Nope. Conscripts are still going to lose to EVERYTHING. Except these guys, but they're 1/3 of the points!

They need to start at 4 points, since you don't have the Platoon tax to take on top of them. Otherwise somebody is going to take over 1000 of these guys at 1500 points and just not bother doing anything except moving and running. A Marine can't even kill 13 of them in a game. Well, hypothetically a marine, over 7 turns could kill 14 with a bolter, assuming perfect conditions. The odds of that are 0.0000117 or 1/100 000, or 0.001% so close enough for our purposes.

Bad Tangi! ;)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 12:09:39 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 12:17:49 PM »
1pt for a cultist is probably a bit cheap as they stand, take away their weapons and armour and start them at 1pt maybe? Make the basic guys as much cannon fodder for the Cultists with auto guns as the autogun cultists would be for Marines?

You can't have a 1 point model. They're already better than Grecthin, and on par with conscripts, with better leadership!

A 5+ save is effectively equal to a 6+ save, when you think about it. Where will it matter? Assault? Nope. Conscripts are still going to lose to EVERYTHING. Except these guys, but they're 1/3 of the points!

They need to start at 4 points, since you don't have the Platoon tax to take on top of them. Otherwise somebody is going to take over 1000 of these guys at 1500 points and just not bother doing anything except moving and running. A Marine can't even kill 13 of them in a game. Well, hypothetically a marine, over 7 turns could kill 14 with a bolter, assuming perfect conditions. The odds of that are 0.0000117 or 1/100 000, or 0.001% so close enough for our purposes.

Bad Tangi! ;)

OK, I did go too far there. :P

OK, how about just 3pts a model?  Or 2pts without a gun for starters?  What do you guys think?  And say, 30 for a maximum sized squad?  And for every 10 models, they may include up to 2 (or 3) heavy weapon teams?

Uncertain Worth is a great rule, it's also a real PITA as you have to keep track of which  unit has rolled what leadership value. I'd be inclined to go for something where every phase you have to test you roll to see what their Ld is, but bump it to 1D6+5 with a total of 11 being Fearless.

Would that be at the start of the Movement Phase, with it lasting until the start of the next Movement Phase?  It would at least keep it fresh in the mind of the player.  I'm sure we can justify it fluff wise.  There's also the Fanatical rule (Roll two dice and pick the highest) and vox casters (re-roll the dice).

Mutant idea sounds great, 2 ways you could go with that: Make it a pay in the list permanent upgrade type of thing or go Skitari style with their doctrines as each turn the fickle Gods bless the Mutants in different ways, +1 toughness/slow and purposeful, +1WS -1BS… Plenty of things you could do for that.

Either one of those sounds good to me.  But it does beg the question; what about the Chaos Boon Rule from Codex Chaos Marines?  Should that be in this list?

Witch covens also sound interesting, one of the old Chaos Codex had Thralls that a Chaos psyker could sacrifice during the game to cast extra powers and I could see a LatD form of that, either killing members of their own units to power up, or just any friendly unit that is close.

Yeah, that sounds great!  :)

Should Witch Covens be a separate unit or should they made out of the basic Cultist Squad.  Actually, should all these units come from one base unit or should they be separate units?

I've also got a Warlord Trait table to work out.  I do like the names of Iron Fisted Tyrant and Arch Heretic Revolutionary at least, if not necessarily their rules.

Arch Heretic Revolutionary should be number 6 on the table.  These are the sort of guys who crusades are launched against.  I was thinking Zealot for the Warlord, and Fearless for all LatD units within 12'' of them.

Iron Fisted Tryant...I'm not sure, but it should involve killing minions.  ;)

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 05:35:34 PM »
At 2 points, a person could spend 1000 points on 500 duders, and still have 500 points to spread around. They're still a wound that controls board space, that needs to be killed by models typically worth 5 to 10 times as much.

Conscripts are a bargain at 3 points. Without a Platoon Tax, I probably wouldn't run any other infantry. :) I've discovered they're immensely valuable as a portable cover save / assault blocker / melta-distance-preventer unit for "battle vehicles" and if you make anything cheaper than them, it would be... Eldar-y. So, anyhow, anything cheaper than Scripts with a Script like ability to simply eat a bullet for something else would be... I can't come up with a better word than Eldary.

Not that I feel ObSec is worth anything in a practical sense... even 250 guys just moving around the board in squads of 10 are 25 squads that only eat half your 1500 points at 3 pts each. They usually have Ld 7+, and even if they roll poorly their purpose isn't to hold ground in the face of overwhelming power. I mean, most armies would have about 10 units at 1500 points. Most units can cause 1/3 of their value in damage, in a turn, given favourable conditions. Sometimes more or less... but I find that in 6 turns both players are often down to their last few models, and if you use fancy math you find that's a reasonable average.

Point being, that 10 opposing units would struggle to combat 25 units that cost half their points, while the other half of a LatD army pounds their faces. If they ignore the grunts, you could surround 5 objectives with 5 ObSec units in an "onion" pattern, making it damned near impossible to get close enough to the centre, after spending 4 turns dealing with the "heavies".

It's really a hypothetical problem, of course. Anyone willing to paint and assemble 250 duders deserves the win. And I expect most people would give up part way through their 2nd movement phase, as they pass out from hunger.

I think 'Scripts, on their own, are worth more than 3 points. If you could take them as 10 man speedbumps, they'd be sick. As is, you've got the Platoon tax on top, and then you need to buy mobs of 20 at a minimum, so their effect is balanced out by effectively making the other guys "cheaper" in their roles. 2x Infantry Squads + 20 Scripts averages 4 pts per model, and their effect is pretty reasonable at that. If Scripts could take Flamers or GL's still, they'd be awesome!

Err... my rather rambling point is that although there are models worth 370 + points now, and they're effectively impossible to balance in a 1500 point game... making models worth less than 1% of them serves to create greater instability. *simmering nerd rage* Not that anyone cares about that anymore.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 08:43:43 PM »
Right, so...how about 40pts for the initial ten man squad, 3pts for further models, +1pt per to buy flak armor and frag grenades together and Militarum Training costs a base 10pts regardless of squad size, so it becomes better value with more men whilst wracking up the cost if you take multiple units.  Now a unit of twenty Cultists costs 100pts, the same as two base IG squads.

Then for every ten models in the unit, you can purchase a special weapon for one model and add a heavy weapon team to the unit for +5pts a team (not replace two models.  Just add the team on).  Their weapon options would be:

Mortar/Heavy Stubber (free)
Heavy Bolter (+5pts)
Autocannon (+10pts)
Missile Launcher (+10pts)
- with flak missiles (+15pts)
Lascannon (+15pts)

Then on top of that, you can purchase marks of chaos (on a pt by model basis), then the Heretec upgrade (6+ FNP, +1pt a model), Combat Drug Injectors (not sure what this should be but I think it should be an option) and if the squad numbers 20 models it can take an icon of their god.

Designated Transport options should be Tauroxes and Chimeras (with BS:2, option to buy Militarum Training and a mixture of the IG and Chaos vehicle upgrades).  I was also thinking of some sort of human version of an Ork Trukk; dirt cheap, open topped and lightly armed.

Maybe renegades should have the bike/trike/quad squads too.

Offline Gunner_Sabot_Tank

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Country: us
  • Armies: IG, GK, Tyranids, Blood Angels
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 11:21:00 PM »
How about an option to make their tauroxes open topped? The model itself begs for just such an option IMO.
Vincere Vel Mori

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 12:17:33 AM »
Right, so...how about 40pts for the initial ten man squad, 3pts for further models, +1pt per to buy flak armor and frag grenades together and Militarum Training costs a base 10pts regardless of squad size, so it becomes better value with more men whilst wracking up the cost if you take multiple units.  Now a unit of twenty Cultists costs 100pts, the same as two base IG squads.

Then for every ten models in the unit, you can purchase a special weapon for one model and add a heavy weapon team to the unit for +5pts a team (not replace two models.  Just add the team on).  Their weapon options would be:

Mortar/Heavy Stubber (free)
Heavy Bolter (+5pts)
Autocannon (+10pts)
Missile Launcher (+10pts)
- with flak missiles (+15pts)
Lascannon (+15pts)

Then on top of that, you can purchase marks of chaos (on a pt by model basis), then the Heretec upgrade (6+ FNP, +1pt a model), Combat Drug Injectors (not sure what this should be but I think it should be an option) and if the squad numbers 20 models it can take an icon of their god.

Designated Transport options should be Tauroxes and Chimeras (with BS:2, option to buy Militarum Training and a mixture of the IG and Chaos vehicle upgrades).  I was also thinking of some sort of human version of an Ork Trukk; dirt cheap, open topped and lightly armed.

Maybe renegades should have the bike/trike/quad squads too.

Well, working towards abusing the builds, 20 Guardsmen with 2x GL, 2x AC cost 130 pts.

20 Renegades plus 2 HWT, with Militarum Training [Higher WS / BS, lasgun?], 2x GL, 2x AC cost 130 pts. Assuming they hide in cover, they're just as survivable. They have better CC potential. They have 4 extra wounds. Their Ld is as good or better 50% of the time. They have more flexible options above and beyond IG infantry, with the assorted marks and "veteran gear" that they have access to. I mean, Icon of Nurgle for FNP, or whatever it does? Brutal.

So still better than Guardsmen, for the same price. Open-topped Tauroxen are also better than what the Guard have. Given that they have LP+CCW, and OT transports allow assault from them, they could bully a weak unit, especially if given appropriate marks / gear. So again, better than Guardsmen. The OT would give them more firepoints than a Chimera.

Bike squads, while fitting with the overall meta of 7th, would again put Guardsmen out of work. But we could all have a giggle and give them all Multi-Lasers for 15 points a model [total] or something like that.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 09:25:50 AM »
Well what would you suggest?

And meanwhile, I think I have a fix for Uncertain Worth.  Change it to a D3+4.  Fanatical can instead be D6+4.  And voxes are still a re-roll.  Champions get +1 to their LD, and if a model with Uncertain Worth ever goes to 11 they get Fearless.  This means that a unit with the Fanatical special rule that rolls a 6 will be Fearless whilst their Champion is still alive.

That's not too messy is it?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 09:27:17 AM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 11:52:21 AM »
Well, if you're building a codex, my suggestion would be 3 tiers of "troop". Rabble, Soldiers, and Elite.

Uncertain worth is random for the sake of random. A rule to differentiate them from being Guardsmen. A needless rule, in my opinion. There's no way that renegades would be nearly as disciplined as Scions, much less more so. Given that Scions have mediocre Ld in the grand scheme of things, I can't see why cultists would ever be more resolved. And how does one keep track of that through the game, do you roll before every Ld test?

Rabble would represent mutants, disgruntled workers, cultists, avid hunters, etc. 4 point Conscripts, with the option to exchange a Lasgun for either a Shotgun or LP+CCW. Or Autogun... whatever. :) Maybe a 5 pt upgrade to take either Heavy Stubber or Flamer. A little pricier than 'Scripts, a little cheaper than CSM Cultists, but also a little more options. Chaos marks could be an option, but I'd avoid Icons. Too "elite". To offset the access to marks, you might want to give them improvised armour, instead. I see precious little difference between a 5+ and 6+ save, but it would be something. Squads of 10 to 30. Make sure there are "cheap" IC's that can join them to raise Ld. Priest / Commissar idea.

Soldiers would be traitor Guard / PDF. Same weapon options as Infantry Squads, except that you remove access to "energy" weapons other than Lasguns. No Plasma, Melta, Lascannons. *IF* it would be fluffy for PDF to have Autoguns instead of Lasguns, then you could see them as more or less modern infantry, using propellant based solid ammo weapons. I feel that at the "grunt" level, the expertise to maintain such personal fire arms probably wouldn't exist, or would be redirected towards maintaining vehicular weapons. They're more important than the grunts anyhow. ;) Option to exchange long arm for LP/AP + CCW. Access to Marks / Icons would give them an "alternate" advantage to Guardsmen, since they can't take energy weapons. They're more or less equal to Guardsmen, with equipment restrictions but access to different abilities. Perhaps a little better than Guardsmen, but without Orders. Orders can't be part of the Renegade list. They're free-thinking men, not auto-responsive machines like Guardsmen.

Elites would be based off of Veterans / Scions. These are the special forces guys, the high end mercs, the jaded ex-Militarum guys with a grudge to grind. Make them a 75 point base unit, with access to a choice [one] of Deep Strike, Scout, and Infiltrate. Access to the Veteran options, but a rule that no IC's can join them, and they can never benefit from Ld effects from other units. For example, they couldn't benefit from a Lord Commie's AoD, or a Warlord trait giving Fearless to all units within 12", that sort of thing. Call them "Hard Cases" or something like that. I wouldn't let them take Carapace upgrade, but the Camo option and maybe the Demolitions option would be reasonable. Access to Marks and Icons for sure.

"Super Mutants" could be something along the lines of Ogryns / Spawn. They'd be a fun elite choice.

Something along the lines of Psyker Battle Squads would be a good idea for a sorcerous Kabal. Or just unchecked psykers. They could be cheaper / more powerful, but a Perils of the Warp effects them all, since they're untrained / unprotected.

I like the idea of a lighter transport for them. Either a repurposed "truck" or the kind of military "cloth back" trucks that you see in ye-olde wartyme movies. That could be "open-topped" with maybe a Heavy Stubber for armament. Not fast, but cheap as chips. 10 man capacity prevents an IC from starting embarked with a squad. AV 10, open-topped, 3 HP, transport. Cheaper than an Ork Truck [25 pts?]. 3 HP on the basis that most of the vehicle is unnecessary to it's continued function. So long as the engine and drive train were armoured, the rest of the truck could be blown to pieces and stay functional. Who needs a roof anyway? Keep access to the Chimera, but not Taurox. That feels like special forces gear, most suitable to the Tempestus.

Keep Leman Russ options. Keep the Bassie, and Hydra. I'm not sure how common Wyverns are, but the mention of extremely sophisticated targeting systems would probably be hard for rebels to maintain. I'd want to remove them. Also remove Manticores and Death... uh... the giant Nuclear missile platform. I never use the thing, I can't remember what it's called.

No air support. The whole idea of keeping the Navy / Ground forces separate is to prevent wide-scale rebellion. Unless they want to cobble together their own Dakkajet type creation. Something less armoured, meant as a dog fighter. Lots of S6 shots would feel fluffy, while not threatening Imperial Flyers overly much. Not Imperial sanctioned flyers, anyhow.

Sentinels feel like a good fit. They're practically renegades in the fluff anyhow.

Access to "Chaosy" stuff would help to balance any restrictions on typical Imperial equipment. I've only really considered Traitors and Rebels here, without much thought towards Daemonic influence. Possessed units, or Daemonhosts would be suitable as well, as might access to a generic summonable daemon unit, and possibly a larger, non-greater Daemon. These guys are still small fish compared to CSM, after all, so probably couldn't handle the summoning of a proper greater daemon.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 02:55:28 PM »
Well, if you're building a codex, my suggestion would be 3 tiers of "troop". Rabble, Soldiers, and Elite.

That's not a bad idea actually.  Lowly dregs and rabble at the bottom, traitorous soldiers and mercenaries in the middle and then at the top, Chosen.  Along with Pyskers, Ogyrns, Chaos Spawn and the ground vehicles.

Uncertain worth is random for the sake of random. A rule to differentiate them from being Guardsmen. A needless rule, in my opinion. There's no way that renegades would be nearly as disciplined as Scions, much less more so. Given that Scions have mediocre Ld in the grand scheme of things, I can't see why cultists would ever be more resolved. And how does one keep track of that through the game, do you roll before every Ld test?

But it's fluffy.  :-\

In the Forge World book it's one roll from the first leadership test whilst khaine was suggesting one roll a turn.  It's stupid I know but I just really like this rule.

Access to "Chaosy" stuff would help to balance any restrictions on typical Imperial equipment. I've only really considered Traitors and Rebels here, without much thought towards Daemonic influence. Possessed units, or Daemonhosts would be suitable as well, as might access to a generic summonable daemon unit, and possibly a larger, non-greater Daemon. These guys are still small fish compared to CSM, after all, so probably couldn't handle the summoning of a proper greater daemon.

Straight up Demon units are out.  If you want them you'll need to ally with the dedicated book.  However, Possessed units, Demonhosts, Demon Engines and Possesed Vehicles are all a-ok.  Possessed Leman Russes ftw.  8)

I also want Chaos Warhounds as unit upgrades for Rabble Packs, and Greater Chaos Warhounds as upgrades for Ogyrn units. 

Offline khaine

  • This happens when I am bored.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
  • Country: england
  • Truly Dread
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 05:03:54 PM »
I feel that at the "grunt" level, the expertise to maintain such personal fire arms probably wouldn't exist, or would be redirected towards maintaining vehicular weapons. They're more important than the grunts anyhow. ;)

"Hey Mr Grunt, here's the gun that you're going to use to defend the Imperium of man, but we're going to give you no maintenance training with it, if it breaks you'll just have to sit down and wait for a Tech Priest. Now off you go and fix that battle cannon."

Ok so these guys aren't going to have the infrastructure behind them for long term maintenance  of high end weapons, but they're going to pick up pretty much anything that will fire, point it at the enemy and pull the trigger until it stops working. Of course with lower standards of care there’s always the chance that those weapons will fail more spectacularly.


But it's fluffy.  :-\

In the Forge World book it's one roll from the first leadership test whilst khaine was suggesting one roll a turn.  It's stupid I know but I just really like this rule.

Actually I was suggesting 1 roll at the end of a phase if they needed to test, no need for a test no need to roll and also no need to track Ld from turn to turn. But I agree it’s quite fluffy and the book keeping on it isn’t that major.

I also want Chaos Warhounds as unit upgrades for Rabble Packs, and Greater Chaos Warhounds as upgrades for Ogyrn units. 

If the rabble get Chaos Warhounds as an upgrade the Ogryns should defiantly get Chaos Reavers…

Oh wait, not quite what you meant.


I think you need to look at how much separation you want from just being "Spikey Guard", comments like "They shouldn't have orders" gives the idea that they are Guard but without the disciplin, the question shpould be "Should they have an order like system?" Which was a question that nobody had asked because for the large part they are not Guard and just don't need it. Should/could they have another mechanic that provides unit buffs? Well there's no reason why not.

Army structure is something else to look at, is it an army in the regular sence or a bunch of smaller warbands/congrigations that are being held together by one enigmatic leader? So you could have an Arch Heretic at the top, with a well equiped personal guard (True believers), below him maybe a traitor guard captain with a couple of rag tag units of ex-guardsmen and along side him a demigouge who has incited the local population to pick up their work tools and go to war with them. In a way it would work a lot like the current FW list with characters unlocking other units.

  There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed

You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


"Childhood is when you idolize Batman. Adulthood is when you realize that the Joker makes more sense."

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 06:02:53 PM »
I was considering the long term ability for such a renegade force to maintain and support a war effort. This isn't a galaxy spanning network, where plasma "fuel" is readily available.

It also gives them a slightly lower-tech vibe. Guardsmen, despite being meagre on the table top, are well equipped, highly trained soldiers. The best a world has to offer, supplied by the best the galaxy can... mass produce. Without that logistical support, it probably wouldn't take long for "high tech" weapons to break down.

To me it gives a slightly different flavour, in that there are restrictions but also different options. It tends to keep them in the "grunt" category, where Veterans have access to limited supply items, like Plasma or Melta. It felt fluffy while in my mind balancing the crunch.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 09:35:23 PM »
If the rabble get Chaos Warhounds as an upgrade the Ogryns should defiantly get Chaos Reavers…

Oh wait, not quite what you meant.

Pfft, if only!  ;)

I think you need to look at how much separation you want from just being "Spikey Guard", comments like "They shouldn't have orders" gives the idea that they are Guard but without the disciplin, the question shpould be "Should they have an order like system?" Which was a question that nobody had asked because for the large part they are not Guard and just don't need it. Should/could they have another mechanic that provides unit buffs? Well there's no reason why not.

Army structure is something else to look at, is it an army in the regular sence or a bunch of smaller warbands/congrigations that are being held together by one enigmatic leader? So you could have an Arch Heretic at the top, with a well equiped personal guard (True believers), below him maybe a traitor guard captain with a couple of rag tag units of ex-guardsmen and along side him a demigouge who has incited the local population to pick up their work tools and go to war with them. In a way it would work a lot like the current FW list with characters unlocking other units.

Those are all very good points.  The Lost And The Damned aren't like other factions; they aren't a single type of army.  The differences between them could be as wide as the differences between Space Wolves and Sisters Of Battle.   

Your example is pretty good; Arch Heretic at the top (who could be anything I suppose), ex-guardsmen/pdf or pirate forces (who may still have been former IG/PDF), rabble (possibly mutants) lead by their demigouges (sort of like dark apostles?), witch covens lead by their leaders...yeah, it all works out!

The Arch Heretic should probably have the greatest customization available (because they could be a former planetary governor, or heretic Cardinal, or pirate lord, or mutant leader or a pysker or anything).  Traitor Guard officers could have voice of command (only trained units can use it).  Btw, what could the military units be called?  Something better than just traitor guard.  Reavers?  Corsairs?   

With this, you could have a small traitor IG force, or a mutant horde, or a big grand alliance under an Arch Heretic.

EDIT:

Got an idea for a Traitor Guard type platoon:

1-3 Infantry squads (consisting of 1 champion and 9-29 men)
0-2 Heavy weapon teams per infantry squad (may be attached to the infantry squads or each other)
0-1 Commander (a 2 wound lieutenant type deal, but is also an Independent Character)
0-1 'Command' squad (requires commander, 4-14 men, icon carriers etc)

then of course they can take chimeras and tauroxes as DTs.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 09:55:09 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline The GrimSqueaker

  • The Badger on the Road | Staff Infection Officer | Debased Vassal Slayer | Title Barfly | XOXOXO Gossip Girl | Bent Over
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19053
  • Country: nz
  • From the Fourth Necromantic House
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 09:48:53 PM »
Something to keep in mind, the LatD are more local in perspective that many other armies. They're not galaxy conquering (anti)heroes, they're doing their own thing on their own turf, as it were. They don't need a long logistic chain or a fleet of warships. They're mucking about in the dirt doing the deed, misguided or not.

If you want to include advanced weaponry then perhaps an unreliable factor.
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
Tact is for people who are too slow witted to be sarcastic.
Drink
Knights Tippler
Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

Offline khaine

  • This happens when I am bored.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
  • Country: england
  • Truly Dread
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2015, 05:43:38 AM »
If you want to include advanced weaponry then perhaps an unreliable factor.

Could defiantly do something with “Gets Hot” to cover that. IIRC there was also a Tyranid strategy in Apocalypse where if you rolled more 1s than 6s for shooting the unit had run low on ammo and had to miss the next turn of shooting.

It would depend massively on exactly who they are. A pirate fleet would have ships, air support and a reasonable level of technology while lacking in heavier equipment and exhibiting a strong sense of self preservation, you’re mad-fanatical-cultist types could be beating on the side of the enemy tanks with their heads and happily charging down gun lines just to make the enemy waste ammo. But yes locality would impact on who these people would be and what they would have in the forms of equipment, the uprising on Vraks certainly didn’t suffer from a lack of vehicles or ordinance.

So potentially there isn’t anything the LatD couldn’t have access to, their limiting factor would be who they were before they were LatD and where they are.

So as a very basic example:

HQ- Arch Heretic (Special rule “There can be only one” but there would be other HQ options)
 Adds elite bodyguard and Enforcers (Commissars who make H2H attacks against their own unit to restore order?)

Elites-    Demagogue (Unlocks Cultists and Marks Of Chaos for (some) other units)
           Mutant Boss (Unlocks Mutants/Beastmen)
           Pirate Captain (Reavers and aircraft, some kind of deep strike option)
           Renegade Guard Officer (Guardesque and light armour)
           Master Of PDF Armoury (Any unit with Grenade launchers may now upgrade to Plasma/Melta
                                  for xxpts)
          And so on…

Effectively each sub commander you picked would paint a picture of the planet/region/sector the uprising took place in, a Pirate Captain (Ex-officer of the fleet) and Renegade Guard Officer would suggest a rebellion on a military world while Demagogue and Mutant would imply an uprising of oppressed workers against a (corrupt) government.

  There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed

You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


"Childhood is when you idolize Batman. Adulthood is when you realize that the Joker makes more sense."

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2015, 11:20:23 AM »
Yeah, that sounds pretty good.  :)

What do you call bad tech priests?  I'm sure some of them go bad and end up joining renegade factions as well.  They aren't Warpsmths are they?  Those are strictly Chaos Marines yes?

I was thinking of a model similar to an IG Techpriest but with more wargear options (taken from the Skitarii codex) who can repair vehicles, take servitor units, and give Heretechnical upgrades to units (like that?  :D)

Something like:

'Bad' Tech Priest (0-3 as a single Elite Choice?): WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 LD:8

Unit Type: Infantry (character)

Special Rules: Awaken The Machine (see page 35 of Codex: Astra Militarum), Independent Character, Master of Mechanisms (see page 34 of Codex: Chaos Marines).

Wargear: Power Armor, Laspistol, Power Axe, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Servo-arm

Options:

May replace laspistol with
- Phosphor blast pistol
- Radium pistol
- Arc pistol
(see page 72-73 of Codex: Skitarii)

(notes: I want them to be able to take more guns, as I've seen artwork of tech priests with gatling guns attached.  No idea what they should be though.)

May replace Servo Arm with Mechatendrills (see page 66 of Codex: Chaos Marines)

May take any of the following:
- Melta bombs
- Refractor Field
- Conversion Field (may not be combined with a Refractor Field)
- Digital Weapons
(see page 76 of Codex: Skitarii)

May take a single Mark of Chaos

How does that look so far?  What sort of points should they cost?  If you're wondering why they have better wargear than an IG Enginseer, it's because Enginseers are actually quite low in the hierarchy of the Priesthood.  All they do is maintain machines, instead of looking to recover lost knowledge like the others.  That, and they probably don't want those fancy guns being looked at by Militarum low lives.  These guys however could have been any rank of priest, and any field too. 

P.S: Some Heretechnical upgrade ideas:

For each unit in the army with the Heretechnical upgrade (the 6+ FNP save one), they may take one further upgrade per Tech priest in the army:

- Rad-saturation: A model with this special rule reduces it's Toughness by 1 (to a minimum of 1), and while a unit is locked in combat with one or more models with this special rule, all models in that unit subtract 1 from their Toughness (to a minimum of 1).  Any Independent Characters joined to a unit with one model with this special rule who do not have this special rule themselves or an armor save of 3+ or lower reduce their Toughness by 1.

- Eye Implants (needs a better name): A model with this special rule adds 1 to it's Ballistic Skill, and cover saves taken against attacks with this special rule are made with a -1 modifier.  Models with this special rule take all Blind Tests at Initiative 1.

- Mechanoid: A model with this special rule increases it's Armor Save by 1, and has the Slow And Purposeful special rule.

How do these look?

EDIT:

After seeing this there's no option.  They must be called Hereteks
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 01:40:01 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Gunner_Sabot_Tank

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Country: us
  • Armies: IG, GK, Tyranids, Blood Angels
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2015, 02:50:13 PM »
Re eye implants, the word you're looking for is ocular. Rad saturation I think needs some work; it's too detrimental for the benefit it gives IMO. Perhaps give it some range or cumulative effects (the longer the enemy unit is in proximity, the more T pts they lose).
Vincere Vel Mori

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2015, 07:54:53 PM »
Re eye implants, the word you're looking for is ocular. Rad saturation I think needs some work; it's too detrimental for the benefit it gives IMO. Perhaps give it some range or cumulative effects (the longer the enemy unit is in proximity, the more T pts they lose).

Ah yes, that's right.  So they'd be called Ocular...something.  ;D

And I guess I do need to go back to the drawing board with Rad saturation.  The idea was to try and make them like faulty, badly made Skitarii Vanguards.

Also, I think I figured out how to do the Arch-Heretic.  They could have a base statline, but they then have pre set styles that have fixed wargear and special rules that determine what kind of heretic they are.  For example, an Arch Heretek has power armor, a power axe, a severo arm or mechatendrills, Awaken The Machine and Master Of Mechanisms, and takes Admech wargear, whilst a Traitor General has Orders, gives the Fanatical rule to Traitor Guard etc.

Offline Gunner_Sabot_Tank

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Country: us
  • Armies: IG, GK, Tyranids, Blood Angels
Re: The Lost And The Damned
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2015, 08:00:13 PM »
Oculenses, Ocular Modifications? And I think that could work for the Arch Heretic.
Vincere Vel Mori

 


Powered by EzPortal