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Offline Dark_Zadok

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Markerlights - Most effective providers
« on: May 7, 2013, 04:54:54 AM »
Having read the new codex I been wondering who wish units would be the most effective providers of markerlights to bring to the battlefield.

I know alot of characters can take drone controllers and thus markerlight drones, which i'm looking into.

but I suppose the ones I've looked at most are:

Pathfinders
Tetras
Markerlight Drones

Anyone of the above can be taken as a fast attack option. I've heard rumours of how good pathfinders are now to how they were before - but still with the markerlight being a heavy wep, i find that, that would hinder them? compared to the Markerlight drones that can JSJ and have a better save than PFs, and obviously move and shoot.

I've always used tetras before - are they still my best option?

What's worked best in your experience?

Z

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #1 on: May 7, 2013, 09:18:00 AM »
Well, the pros and cons go like this, I think:

Pathfinders are the cheapest markerlights, but also the most fragile. Any solid attention from the enemy shooting phase will probably see these guys wiped out. They die and run like guardsmen.

Marker Drones are the most expensive markerlights and are the least accurate (meaning you're paying even *more* points per markerlight hit, essentially), but they are mobile and relatively durable. The fact that they're mounted on a jetpack makes them even more flexible in where you can put those markerlight hits, too.

Tetras are a little more expensive than Pathfinders per marker shot, are a bit more durable (if only barely, and they are *more* vulnerable to certain weapons--meltaguns, lascannons, etc.), but they are much faster, though they lack the Jump-Shoot-Jump capabilities of marker drones.

I'd also like to mention that getting marker support from Skyrays and Sniper Drones are also good options. You don't get great numbers of markerlights, but you get very accurate ones, which makes a lot of difference. I've found that it is rare that I need to get 4+ marker hits on one unit and am usually satisfied with 2-3 hits, or even 1, depending on the target. I like to scatter small numbers of markerlights around in a few units, rather than have a ton of markerlights in one. 

Offline Greg23

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #2 on: May 7, 2013, 09:05:46 PM »
When I play markerlights, I become a big believer in diversity and dispersion.  Opponents know how clutch those markerlights can be for Tau players, so taking them out becomes a huge priority.

Once I ran maxed out squads of pathfinders, only to watch them all die turn 1 as my opponents threw everything at them.  Now I roll with 12 to 15 markerlights dispersed through seven squads.

Pathfinders:  Two small squads no larger than 6 a piece.  Deployed far away from each other.
Markerdrones:  As a pure squad?  That eats up a precious fast attack slot.  But as upgrades that would work.
Tetras:  Just bought 4 this past month.  Need to play with them to get a better feel.  A fast markerlight is always a good thing
Sniper Team:  BS 5 markerlight + stealth + 4+ save.  Amazing, better than pathfinders.  Eats up a heavy slot, so choose wisely.
Skyray:  Like the Tetra, I just bough one.  Normally I would consider a tank platform overkill for a markerlight, but after seeing so much helldrake spam, anything with skyfire is nice.
Firewarrior Shas'ui:  Works really well with a gunline foot Tau list.  Also comes with target lock.
Stealth Team Shas'vre:  Infiltrate markerlight on a relentless platform + target lock.
Fireblade and Darkstriker:  BS 5 markerlights are always a good thing.  Fireblade has split fire, which is nice.  Darkstriker is built more for offense with a unit of Firewarriors with pulse carbines.

So for me it isn't so much which units are better markerlight platforms than others but rather how much I can disperse markerlights throughout the army.   My only recommendation is that 1/4 to 1/3 of the total markerlights in any given army be placed on mobile platforms (the Tetra, markerdrones, Skyray, and Stealth Team Shas'vre)

Offline DCKeith

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #3 on: May 7, 2013, 09:46:59 PM »
I have only played 2 games with the new tau and this unit has been amazing for me both games.

Commander, Drone controller, Missile pods, Target Lock, Marker drones x2
Bodyguard x2, target lock x2, Missile pods x2, Marker drones x4

Also every Squad of Fire warriors is upgraded with a Markerlight and 2 Marker drones.(This was originally because I didn't have the points that my opponent wanted to play at but I found it extremely helpful throughout the game.)

I haven't tried the fast attack options yet because I have yet to buy any.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #4 on: May 8, 2013, 03:12:36 PM »
I dislike Marker Drones as upgrades to most squads with the exception of Stealths and possibly firewarriors. On Crisis Suits they don't suit the unit's role. Let me explain it this way: The Tau Shooting Phase is a carefully timed thing. To get the most out of the phase, you need to give markerlight tokens to the units that need it and need the rest of the army to set up the killing blows created by those self-same markerlights while, at the same time, prioritizing your shooting order to account for the occasional choke.

Crisis Suits are units that will *very often* be the things that put the killing blow on numerous kinds of targets (transports, fliers, monstrous creatures, heavy infantry, etc.). This mean they will stand to benefit the most from markerlight hits, as their firepower is high quality and cover is most often the biggest impediment to their effectiveness. To give them marker drones, though, means they will be firing markerlights at targets that they, presumably, will either be destroying or crippling while using other marker tokens. They are, in other words, frequently wasted markerlights. Crisis Suits aren't the things that set up other units, they are the units you set up.

As for markers on FW shas'ui/Fireblade and so on, they're marginally useful but cater to a static role for your infantry, which I never do with FWs. It also can put FWs in an awkward position vis-à-vis fire order, since quite often it's my intention to pop a transport first and then let the FWs have a crack at what's inside, but I usually want my targets marked *first* so I can better plan out the shooting phase. It can still work, but these are sub-optimal markerlight platforms in my eyes. Besides, you really don't need *that* many Markerlights, anyway--6-10 should do it in most instances. Every markerlight you squeeze in the list is usually one less gun you will be shooting to cause damage. There is a point where it becomes a poor investment. 

Offline Packetmaster

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #5 on: May 8, 2013, 05:27:07 PM »
I think the best way to have marker light are with a unit of 6 marker drone with a commander (2 gun or shield drone) with drone controller and target lock. The commander will still be able to shoot at other targets and you will have accurate marker light.

The second way to have marker light are with skyray. They are not a bad choice to had some marker light and are much better now. Also in second position, pathfinder (8 or 10) with 2 to 3 ion rifles to "blast" away to cripple enemies and mark them for the finishing blow at the same time. If I'm not mistaken you can have a unit of 8 with 2 ion rifles for the same cost as 12 FW, not bad.

I don't think marker light in FW units are worth the point investment. There are too few in one unit and they get confusing roles in the shooting phase has explained in the previous post.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2013, 07:12:51 PM by Packetmaster »

Offline Greg23

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #6 on: May 8, 2013, 07:51:34 PM »
Fire Warrior Shas'ui and Stealth Team Shas'vre do come with the added bonus of Target Lock on their markerlights, so they can split fire from their squads if need be. Firewarrior Shas'uis can still snap fire markerlights if they're on the move.

I just know that enemies will always strive to take out my markerlights as quickly as possible, especially horde armies like IG, 'Nids, Horde 'Cron, and Orks. Nothing ruins a horde army's day faster than eating zero deviation pie plates all day long that ignores cover and punches through 4+ armor saves. 

Aegis Line ... Shmaegis Line, you just backed yourself up into a corner that you can't get out from with a wall that can't stop me..   ;)

Going MSU and markerlight dispersion/diversity throughout the Tau list gives me enough coverage across the board.  Yeah, I'm usually on the losing side for first blood victory points, but the meta that I see at my LGS is huge blob squads / death stars over-commiting to annihilating single units or holding objectives.  I use that plus their irrational fear of markerlights to work towards my advantage.

Offline The Unseenly Invincible

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #7 on: May 9, 2013, 04:53:52 AM »
I use that plus their irrational fear of markerlights to work towards my advantage.

Actually, not so irrational, my friend. The markerlight's are where the hurt is. This is of course not to say that you should completely rely on markerlights: treat them more as a "bonus" which comes at a minimal point investement. I'd agree with Wyddr, and say that per 500 points, there should be 3-4 markerlights MAX. The general issue with markerlights is the fact that you either get them durable but in small quantities/inaccurate, or soft but with greater hits per squad.

I simply like 2x 6 Pathfinder squads at 1750 points, which do just fine. When deployed around the rear end's of the board to make good use of that long range, both squads away from each other and away from the rest of the army... Let's just say my pathfinders bear the brunt every game. But its not necessarily a bad thing. I find them particularly amusing against CC armies such as tyranids/orks, were opponents have very little to assure my pathfinder's destruction, and sometimes I even get the treat of my opponent raging and running squads at the pathfinders, ignoring other, more tactical, objectives. Pathfinders are just too good to live.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #8 on: May 9, 2013, 09:12:20 AM »
Pathfinders are just too good to live.

+1 to this, sir. They are too good to live, and that's why I don't usually take them. I like to get more than one turn out of my units, usually.

The point you make is valid, though. Depending upon opponent/local metagame, Pathfinders can last and can even work as decent diversions. Low-shooting armies, for instance, have a rough time removing them. I've personally found low-shooting armies to be an notable rarity in 6th edition, but your mileage may vary.

I've honestly been looking at Pathfinders as a special weapons squad and focusing less on their markerlights. An outflanking group of Pathfinders with three railrifles is a nasty surprise for a Chimera line, for instance, or for anything relying on artillery.

My personal plan for markerlights goes like this: I want enough to give my army an edge, but not so many that the markerlights terrify the everliving daylights out of my opponent. If I can boost one or two units a turn to BS4/5, I'm happy. Then, if I make my markerlights sufficiently inconvenient to remove (thanks to J-S-J ing marker drones, tetra holed up in cover, a Skyray, etc.), my opponent either doesn't bother killing them (giving me markerlight support all game long) or they have to spend much more effort to remove an element of my army that I don't *really* need to function. In any event, I'm not spending more than 10-15% of my points on Markerlights no matter what happens.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2013, 11:02:43 AM by Wyddr, Evil Space Marine »

Offline Darkstrider

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 01:16:39 AM »
I love pathfinders so much have taken 3 squads in a 750 point game before. I have had sucess with only 2 tactics with them so far. The first is the one is touched upon by The Unseenly Invincible, essentialy you take 2 medium sized squads with no upgrades find them some good cover and stay out of range of enemy troop choices. The other option is taking a medium-large squad(s) and running them with the upgraded weapons and putting  them behind your ethereal FW squad, the idea is to snapfire the marker lights so you can markerlight cascade (this is particularly deadly with zephyr's grace). 

Offline Wiggus

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 03:05:13 AM »
something i have had a little success against the draigo wing and sanguinary guard is darkstrider and 3 rail rifles to instant kill paladins and the like
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 08:43:31 AM »
something i have had a little success against the draigo wing and sanguinary guard is darkstrider and 3 rail rifles to instant kill paladins and the like

How are you instant killing paladins with Rail Rifles? Their strength isn't high enough.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind--I forgot about Darkstrider's thing-a-ma-whatsit. Good plan.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 09:06:27 AM by Wyddr, Evil Space Marine »

Offline Darkstrider

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 09:17:28 AM »
Wydr I can help you out there, Darkstrider lowers the toughness of the unit he is shooting at for him and his unit. I have been trying to figure out where this is best and the rail rifle and darkstrider combo is one of the best anti TEQ units at our disposal. On the other hand putting him with FW's gives them a 2+ to wound against MEQ and can deny DE there FNP.

Offline Packetmaster

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Re: Markerlights - Most effective providers
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 10:48:15 PM »
I would use Dark Strider as a TEQ hunter only if all my other slot for TEQ hunter are full. A crisis suit team full of melta (6 of them) is still cheaper than Dark Strider with a minimal squad of pathfinder and they have a better save.
It would only help with your target saturation: "Who do you shoot?... my commander, one of my 3 crisis team, the body guard of the commander or Darkstrider.

Again it would only work if you know what your facing... grey knights, monstrous creatures list and the like.

 


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