Topic: new chaos dex dissapointments

[Sanctjud]

Dear god... Did anybody else notice that Demon Princes lost eternal warrior? They have the Demon USR, but that doesn't grant EW. A sad day for demon-kind...

If you need a Daemon Prince with EW, I guess you can seek Daemon allies and use their Daemon Princes.

[Sevenzilla]

Most of the legions are fine - cult legions get their respective cult troops, Iron warriors get warpsmiths (shatter defences representing artillery) and daemon siege engines, word bearers get the dark apostle and alpha legion get cultists to hide behind.

Hi,

I don't see how the warp smith destroys enemy artillery. Also, it looks like anybody can take siege engines, dark apostles, etc. not just word bearers and iron warriors. I guess you may be thinking of players who have been in chaos since before the 4th edition codex and collected those armies. I started at 4th, so I don't have any relationship with them  .

...Unless you meant the shatter defences ability assumes he is using artillery to do that?

[Arquarian]

Has anyone noticed some of the glaring possible miss types? (and I apologise if these have been mentioned before0 

Terminators can't take two cc weapons

Plague Zombies are limited to 10 models

And a few others I can't remember right now....

[Neo-Buzzard]

maybe its just me and i never payed attention to it, but when did termies ever get 2 CC weps? mine always had their basic power weps and a twin-linked bolter (guess its a combi-bolter now). I don't remember them ever having two cc weps.

They can still take a pair of claws or take w/e wep you want, and now your termie champ can be decked out with 2 chainfists. sounds kinda win to me, even just to model it

[Benis]

Just like in 4th edition they can replace both their weapons with a pair of Lightning Claws, in the 3.5 edition of the codex Terminators could pretty much have any close combat equipment what so ever, including normal close combat weapons.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

I don't see how the warp smith destroys enemy artillery.

Locarno said that Shatter Defences represents artillery, as in it represents the effects of shelling a piece of terrain before the game starts. He didn't say it destroys artillery.

Also, it looks like anybody can take siege engines, dark apostles, etc. not just word bearers and iron warriors.

There's no such restriction, you're right, but Locarno's talking about themed armies. Iron Warriors players, for example, benefit from the inclusion of the new daemon engines because they're naturally a very fluffy choice, although it does arguably mean that Iron Warriors players will need two detachments just to squeeze in all the appropriate Heavy Support choices. Word Bearers players similarly get the benefit of a dedicated Dark Apostle now, rather than having to turn a Lord into a de facto Apostle by giving him a giant mace.

Arkie, Buzzard: Terminators have been able to have two close combat weapons for ages as the old Codex gave them a dual-lightning-claw option, and the current one has retained said option.

[Neo-Buzzard]

Just like in 4th edition they can replace both their weapons with a pair of Lightning Claws, in the 3.5 edition of the codex Terminators could pretty much have any close combat equipment what so ever, including normal close combat weapons.

Ah i see. when i played that dex, i didnt own any termies, just spammed foot slogging noise marines (3 squads of 13 all with sonic weapons made a big hole in pretty much anything)

[enlg]

Well it should be known that Iron Warriors can ally with Imperial Guard in order to get their 4th heavy support choice, particularly the basilisk (which used to be unique to them, in addition to the vindicator back when chaos couldn't have vindicators).

[Locarno]

Indeed. Mixing and matching cultists and guard allies allows you to make a 'traitor guard' force with chaos marine commanders and elites - just like the old Lost And The Damned.

Also - Plague Zombies. Awesome, even if they do only come in mobs of ten.

Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support?  I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.

I've always liked footsloggers, myself, and rapid fire now makes that much more viable. Abbadon's rule makes me think of doing a sort of 'chaos deathwatch' army of lots of pure chosen of various marks (and legions). Use Ahriman (as a counts as Zaphariston) in a bigger list and you can still infiltrate a couple of them...

[ozzfann0666]

I don't see anything in the codex about plague zombie units being limited to ten man. All it says is that any unit of cultists can be designated as plague zombies, they gain the special rules, and lose the ability to shoot. Nothing about the size of the unit.

EDIT: Please disregard this. I didn't realize adding models was listed under options, I thought it was separate. Now I get where the issue is.

[Lazarisreborn]

Here are my two cents:

My two favorite legions did not get helped.  Tsons got shafted AGAIN.  They still die to dakka like normal marines and no overwatch.  They are very expensive now for what they do.

I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle.  Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers?  The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion.  They are not a cheap support character with less than optimal stats.  ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff.  I think Phil Kelly has never read the fluff on this legion.  Yes, the codex has a dark apostle and cultists.  No, that doesn't necessarily make it fluffy.  Do not even get me started on possessed.  Even more expensive and can only ever be ap3 in cc where as before we had a chance for rending.

Why do people think the dragon is anti-flyer?  vector strikes at st7 on side armor will not dent stormravens and vendettas in most cases.  If you equip it with the hades autocannon, it cannot vector strike said flyer and only has 4 shots.  I do not see what other people are seeing.  What it IS good for is the bale flamer.  Torrent and its movement will make it annihilate heavy weapons squads like longfangs or lootas in the backfield.  This is what it is good at.  Although, I guess it does kill necron fliers well, but at max you can only knock down 3 of their 9 max fliers (If you take 3 dragons)?

Why do people say there are so many awesome combos in this codex?  All I have seen so far is Epidemus Nurgle lists which do terribly against the long range shooting meta that is 6th.  Everything else is too expensive to combo in my opinion.

The daemon engines will die without regenerating hull points because of low armor.  Unless you make all your 5+  saves.  I don't see these as that durable.

HUGE point increase on the defilers which I actually used in 5th edition.  Same problem with durability stated above.

Like others have said, I see the same old codex with just a few extra toys to boost marketing.  So much wasted potential.


-Lazaris

[Koval, Master Verispex]

My two favorite legions did not get helped.  Tsons got shafted AGAIN.  They still die to dakka like normal marines and no overwatch.  They are very expensive now for what they do.

In that respect nothing has changed between Codices. They're still better than they were, though, on the basis that the Sorcerer's actually useful now.

I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle.  Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers?  The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion.

Then turn your Lord into a heavier version. You could have an interesting contrast between the one who spends all his time as a hate preacher, and the one who actually gets out there and leads by example. 

ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff.

Seeing as daemons can be taken as allies, I don't see why this is a problem. 

Do not even get me started on possessed.  Even more expensive and can only ever be ap3 in cc where as before we had a chance for rending.

Possessed were crap before anyway...

Why do people think the dragon is anti-flyer?  vector strikes at st7 on side armor will not dent stormravens and vendettas in most cases.  If you equip it with the hades autocannon, it cannot vector strike said flyer and only has 4 shots.  I do not see what other people are seeing.

The fact that flyers don't have the Hard To Hit penalty against other flyers might help a bit, and you've got Daemonforge for when you want that Vendetta out of the sky.

Why do people say there are so many awesome combos in this codex?

Units in the current Codex are generally much cheaper than in the old Codex (Defiler notwithstanding, though Daemon, It Will Not Die and Daemonforge do make up for that despite your apparent protestations) so you've got a bit more freedom to mix and match what you want, whether that's with allies or just within the Codex.

The daemon engines will die without regenerating hull points because of low armor.  Unless you make all your 5+  saves.  I don't see these as that durable.

HUGE point increase on the defilers which I actually used in 5th edition.  Same problem with durability stated above.

Go and ask the Dark Eldar players what they thought of Flickerfields under 5th Edition, and what they think of jink saves under 6th. Being able to negate (on average) a third of incoming firepower, and being able to repair (on average) a third of whatever gets through, is better than you make it out to be.

[Arquarian]

Lazaris, step away from the plate, take a breath, have a sit down and a cup of tea. Now, is it all that bad?
I think you're suffering form a case of "they changed it, its crap" syndrome. Stop thinking about what you 'can't' do anymore and start realising what you now can do.

Koval you pretty much said everything I weanted to but I'm going to elaborate on an important point oin my mind;

I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle.  Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers?  The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion. ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff.

Seeing as daemons can be taken as allies, I don't see why this is a problem.

Fully agree, taking daemons as allies actually does us a favour as it frees up our primary FOC chart and aslo is VERY fulffy as you can cement the idea odf the Dark apostle calling forth a Greater Daemon / Herald to dring his warpspawned legions with him. Or go fully the other way and take a Daemons Daemon Prnice (they're better anyway) and have the Dark Apostle serve him. Who said Erebus??

You can always take a Chaos Lord or a Sorceror (as I have been and will be doing again) and have them proxy as a Dark Apostle. You need to think outside the box. 

[Packetmaster]

Yup, I think that waht 6th edition will do in general... make us think outside of the box.

[Irisado]

Yup, I think that waht 6th edition will do in general... make us think outside of the box.

That's a pretty vague statement.

In what ways do you think sixth edition and the new Chaos codex will make us think outside the box?  Note that I'm not disagreeing with your idea, but I'm curious as to the particular examples that you had in mind.

[thebeggarking]

Personally i love the new dex. Initially was disappointed with first read though. But after few more absolutely love it. Was expecting another power dex like GK or SW Or BA. And hate to say i was hoping it would be.... to compete and better the broken Eldar, knight, guard and Angels codex's ,but its not and now am so so glad. Hopefully this is the start where GW go back to pretty balanced books that don't try and eclipse and overpower every previous dex. Think Kelly has done a  really good job. Its got hints of the great Csm black codex. Marks, Boons great and love the warlord traits. Three new dae machines agreed despite limited builds look cool. Also new warp talon unit and mutilators (both unsure about but nice to have the option). Warpsmith and apostle great additions. Prob not best power HQs but add a nice option and touch to army creation. Cultists awesome, cheap disposable bods. What i really love is the variety and sheer amount of choice of units we get now and for list building its a joy. Generally points of most units gone down, bikes, havocs, raptors, lord and sorcerors.  And it has breathed new life maybe into units of spawn, bikes and maybe possessed (still way over priced but get em in combat more effective now 3 less random options. Marks rock too. Can mark up almost everything. Oh also love helbrute rules compared to the old dreds. And generally all the points costs sorted.
 
Fair enough Dae Princes cost loads more and lost eternal warrior. But stats got huge boost. Also flying mons creature. Is losing Eternal warrior a really a big deal? unless getting shot by broadsides or special wargear they be fine.
And Like everyone i was waiting for legion spec rules. Was itching to get a new Night lords army going. but no no spec legion rules or cult termies or anything. Guess they will either release Legion specific codex's (i think unlikely now) Or we just wait till our chaos armies are covered in the Forge world heresy books.

Wanted drop pods and some landraiders with some different loadouts.... But hey we didnt' get a power dex, Or legion stuff, or cult stuff. But lots new units and points fixed on be a  various others. Spec characters generally seem better. Other disused units addressed. Personally i love it.  Maybe a couple more dae weapons would be my main gripe.

len

[Packetmaster]

Well, the allies rule for exemple. Now, if I face a chaos armie I could see Leman russ facing me.  You not limited to the codex material only. Special senerio are more frequent (scrouge, the relic, etc...)

Cookie cutter list are not an absolute most, if you want to win. New combo need to be found to fit a specific style of play. Maybe my guards want Mega Nobz, or even a Demon Prince to lead my army. Chaos have 4 allies of convinience, that's 4 new dex to "mash-mix" with.

[Locarno]

I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle.  Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers?  The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion.  They are not a cheap support character with less than optimal stats. 

Marine Chaplains and Librarians are equally supposed to be exceptionally skilled fighters but get the same statline.

But, as noted, if it really bothers you, take a chaos lord with a power maul, aura of dark glory and mark of tzeench. One 4++ character with a crozius who confers fearless to any unit he joins.

The problem with making a Dark Apostle a Lord with extra rules is then there's no reason to take the lord (ditto sorceror). I could just as easily suggest that the Warpsmith (essentially Iron Warriors Warsmith) should be a Lord but again, there's then no reason for the lord.

[enlg]

It should be pretty clear that the reduced statline for non-Lord HQ's (besides the prince) was for easy balancing reasons.

They have already given the other marine equivalent ability-driven HQ's the same lackluster statline, and made them all similarly priced. It makes it easier to evaluate what price they should have without making them all super points heavy or overpowered.

Sure we won't get awesome uber characters for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but really, lords can mostly replicate the awesomeness of such leaders.

[Benis]

They have already given the other marine equivalent ability-driven HQ's the same lackluster statline, and made them all similarly priced. It makes it easier to evaluate what price they should have without making them all super points heavy or overpowered.

This. Personally I think it is a good idea, the silliness of third edition where a Chaplain was in every way better than a Captain for Space Marines is just wrong. Let the Chaos Lord be the killer and give the other guys skills to compliment their supportive nature is a good way to go in my opinion.