News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Zero divided by zero equals= ????  (Read 3336 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2003, 06:54:07 PM »
a/b = c <-> a = b.c
only counts in a conjunction without the 0
it really matters

the 0 can be defined like i did previously and it counts for all conjunctions, exept those where it doesn't exist in that is learned only in advanced maths (8 uur wisk)

but  0/0 = x <-> 0= x*0 ; it actually means x can be anything ??????
you can't do the same with 0 as you do with  a/b = c <-> a = b.c
9/3 = x

0 is a special number and it takes months/years at school to learn all about it ,

why do you think conjunction without 0 exist ,that's one of the many reasons....

in multiplications 0 isn't a neutral number like in + or -
it drives everything to 0

miclantecuthli you are wrong dude
when you devide you actually are * 1/x (x =the number with who you were deviding )

so 0 : 0 = 0 * 1/0 = 0 * X = 0 (doesn't matter what X is it always be = 0)

i hope nobody else tries to prove me that i'm wrong ,i've been/still are learning this stuff for a few years

if you don't believe me ask a teacher ,he'll tell you the same thing

but still if you want to chalenge me ,try if that really makes you happy...

i'll ask to my teacher to be sure

The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

Offline Kei'Ariq

  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Ariq rides again
    • Wych Cult of Spank Me!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2003, 09:57:09 PM »
a/b = c <-> a = b.c
Miclantecuthli,
Kharandhil is quite correct about zero being an innappropriate choice for this situation.

Starting with the second part of your relation above (a = b.c), consider the case where b=0:

Dividing by b
a/b = b.c/b = c(b/b)

In most cases b/b = 1, so it makes perfect sense to consider a/b = c, however, if b = 0 then both sides of the equation are undefined.

To continue to define a as zero as well gives the following:
0/0 = c (0/0)
Essentially requiring a circular definition of the value of 0/0.

Kharandhil, you are causing me some difficulties here, partly because the notation that you use is rather different to what I am familiar with, partly down to the limitations of text based presentation and partly because I am out of practice, and I believe that you are following paths that are completely unnecessary to demonstrate what you are trying to say.

I feel that I should take issue with the following:
Quote
so 0 : 0 = 0 * 1/0 = 0 * X = 0 (doesn't matter what X is it always be = 0)
For the same reason that Miclantecuthli's point that I just looked at is flawed, so is your point here. Essentially, you are multiplying both sides of the equation by zero, and saying therefore 0=0.

Usually the case of 0/0 is dealt with depending on the application that it is being applied to, which is why I gave the limits approach to the situation above. Have you dealt with limits yet?

Offline Wingednothing

  • Mother Isha
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 992
  • No te vaya.
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2003, 10:49:29 PM »
I'm going to stop reading this thread as it is giving me a headache!  :o
When I think of heaven
Deliver me in a black-winged bird
I think of dying
Lay me down in a field of flame and heather
Render up my body into the burning heart of God in the belly of a black-winged bird
Don’t try to bleed me
Cause I’ve been here before and I deserve a little more

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2003, 01:01:29 AM »
Kharandhil, you are causing me some difficulties here, partly because the notation that you use is rather different to what I am familiar with, partly down to the limitations of text based presentation and partly because I am out of practice, and I believe that you are following paths that are completely unnecessary to demonstrate what you are trying to say.

I feel that I should take issue with the following:
Quote
so 0 : 0 = 0 * 1/0 = 0 * X = 0 (doesn't matter what X is it always be = 0)
For the same reason that Miclantecuthli's point that I just looked at is flawed, so is your point here. Essentially, you are multiplying both sides of the equation by zero, and saying therefore 0=0.

Usually the case of 0/0 is dealt with depending on the application that it is being applied to, which is why I gave the limits approach to the situation above. Have you dealt with limits yet?

yeah i know that some parts are unesesary ,but that's because i want to make it more clear ,but it becomes even more difficult to folow for others...
yeah i was trying to use limits but i didn't know how that was called in english
you see everything i know ,was taught to me in dutch so, i don't know all the terminology in english that's why i can't explain all
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

caramoor

  • Guest
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2003, 01:38:40 AM »
I vote that the kharandhil gets the spamming title, that or he shuts up, and dosent waste any more forum space :D.

Man, listen to them. Your arguments ( after reading the last 3 pages) are fundamentally flawed, at least 4 ppl with an obviously better grasp of mathematics than yourself have explained that you are wrong, and how so.

I've come to the conclusion that you dont care, and all you trying to do is a get a rise, which is why you should shut up, or get the spamming title.

Offline Kei'Ariq

  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Ariq rides again
    • Wych Cult of Spank Me!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2003, 04:06:10 AM »
Kharandhil, one of the purest forms of intelligence test, is how simply you can explain a complicated subject.

To give one other explanation of why 0/0 is undefined, consider the relation z=x/y, graphed in a three dimensional space.

The point of y=0 is a singularity, where we cannot evaluate the exact answer, although depending on how we approach the point, we can use it in certain applications.  :)

In particular I want you to consider three situations:
1) x = y
2) x = 0 or x ~ 0
3) y = 0 or y ~ 0

If x = y then z = 1 for all values of x (and y), except for the singluarity. If we were examining a problem from this direction, then we could possibly treat the value as 1, for such things as an integral with a range that includes the singularity.

If x = 0 then z = 0 for all values of y, except for the singularity. If x ~ 0, but not exactly, then the relation will be proportional to z = 1 / y, and will approach positive and negative infinity as y approaches zero.

If y = 0 then z is undefined for all values of x, a singularity occurs at all these locations. If y ~ 0, but not exactly then we have a relation that is proportional to z = x, although the proportional factor will be approaching infinity. Essentially this would be graphed as a line that is as close to vertical as possible, without actually being vertical.

These three approaches yield options for 0/0 of 1, somewhere between negative and positive infinity and 0. With such a range of options (and you can include any real number as the limit value of the singularity), it is only sensible to consider 0/0 as undefined. What you have presented is generally correct, but is only one aspect of the situation.

Offline kharn012000

  • The world is flat I tell you
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1199
  • I pick fights with fighting_scars!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2003, 04:39:49 AM »
i asked my math C teacher today amd this is the answer she gave me:

A/B=C
A=B*C

0/0=C
0=0*C

Therefore, every answer is a valid one.

Offline miclantecuthli

  • The Unpronouncable Man
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
  • Country: be
  • Forever in debt to your priceless advice
  • Armies: Empire (AoS), Chaos (AoS)
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2003, 07:02:12 AM »
Quote
if you don't believe me ask a teacher ,he'll tell you the same thing


i asked my math C teacher today amd this is the answer she gave me:

A/B=C
A=B*C

0/0=C
0=0*C

Therefore, every answer is a valid one.

Just what I said!

Quote
a/b = c <-> a = b.c
only counts in a conjunction without the 0
it really matters

It could help if you gave me your definition of "/".

Quote
miclantecuthli you are wrong dude
when you devide you actually are * 1/x (x =the number with who you were deviding )

That's a result of the defenition I gave! Not the other way around.

Let's start with a conjunction A, +, * with the following special abilities:

- a*b belongs to A
- a*e = a = e*a  (e is usually 1)- a*â = e = â*a (except for 0, the e of "+")
- .....

The â for "*" is usually 1/a, that's why we can do what you did:

a/x = a* 1/x, but you can't do that for 0; cause 0 is the e (neutraal element, don't know the english word) for "+". 0/0 does NOT equal 0* 1/0 !!!

Quote
Starting with the second part of your relation above (a = b.c), consider the case where b=0:

Dividing by b
a/b = b.c/b = c(b/b)
You' re making the same mistake here.
Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear And I'm floating around my tin can
Far above the Moon
Planet Earth is blue
And there's nothing I can do

Offline Kei'Ariq

  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Ariq rides again
    • Wych Cult of Spank Me!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2003, 08:27:09 AM »
Miclantecuthli,

I don't believe I had a mistake in my logic.

For a/b = c to be equivalent to a = b.c then we should be able to transform one into the other.

Starting with:
a/b = c

Multiply both sides by b:
(a/b).b = b.c

Rearranging slightly:
a.(b/b) = b.c

Now in almost all cases, b/b = 1, which is the identity operator for multiplication (the value which will not change the result when multiplied), so it is cancelled.

In the case where b = 0, we cannot do that, because the left side of the equation is undefined, and therefore an equality is inappropriate.

We end up with the same problem when starting from the other end (a = b.c) and dividing by b:
a/b = c (b/b)

Again if b = 0 then the basic equations that are being used to evaluate 0/0 will have to include 0/0 in them. From a definitional perspective, it is inappropriate to use the item being defined in the definition. Thus a different approach should be used to determine the value of 0/0.

Offline miclantecuthli

  • The Unpronouncable Man
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
  • Country: be
  • Forever in debt to your priceless advice
  • Armies: Empire (AoS), Chaos (AoS)
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2003, 08:40:46 AM »
Why don't ypu give me your "correct" definition of "/". We have to start with the definition of "/", the rest isn't important. If I'm wrong, and i doubt that, then is my definition of "/" also wrong.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2003, 08:41:45 AM by miclantecuthli »
Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear And I'm floating around my tin can
Far above the Moon
Planet Earth is blue
And there's nothing I can do

Offline Kei'Ariq

  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Ariq rides again
    • Wych Cult of Spank Me!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2003, 10:47:30 AM »
Please excuse my definitional rustiness, as I am well out of practice in this kind of thing. So, I will use wordy explanations in place of proper mathematical notation.

Essentially, I am using as a definition of "/" the division process, inverse multiplication "*" such that:
a * b = (a + a + ... + a)     [with b items]

Domains:
a: Real numbers
b: Integer numbers

By using a linear interpolation between integer values of b, it is possible to extend the domain of b to the real numbers without requiring "/" in the definition.

From there I am defining "/" as the inverse process of "*" so that the following will apply:
a/b = c if a = b*c

With the exception of b = 0, because if zero can be applied to the "/" operator, then the following problem will occur:
a/0 = c
Therefore, by the definitional relation above (a/b = c if a = b*c):
a = c*0

Which is only true if a = 0, therefore, 0 is excluded from the "/" operator.

So for a shorter version of my definition:
a/b = c if a = b.c

With a domain of
a: Real numbers
b: Real numbers, excluding zero

That seems messy and incomplete, could you point to the part of the definition that clashes with your own.

Edit: The exclusion of zero in the "/" operation does have an equivalent exclusion in the "*" process, because it is the same as multiplying by infinity. However, as infinity is not a part of the real number set, it is not apparent in the domains.

Quote
...
a/x = a* 1/x, but you can't do that for 0; cause 0 is the e (neutraal element, don't know the english word) for "+". 0/0 does NOT equal 0* 1/0 !!!
I agree that you cannot apply the "/" operator to 0, but I don't understand your reasoning. Why does the identity operator for "+" become an unacceptable choice for the inverse of "*"? Clearly it is not the case in reverse, as the identity of "*" is well suited to the "-" operator, and is an essential part of basic mathematical definition.

Also, I believe that
0/0 = 0 * 1/0
However, the 1/0 term should be treated as infinity, as the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero is +/- infinity. Zero times infinity is undefined, which is consistent with 0/0 being undefined.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2003, 11:24:56 AM by Kei'Ariq »

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2003, 11:18:09 AM »
the way to defining the number 0 is so long and i can't be written here (i could but it would be long enough to fill some pages...)

but this in only valid in a conjunction without 0 ,any time you try to put 0 in it you are wrong cause the conjunction says you can't take some 0 in it

defining 0 takes a long very long time and so i only said somethings about it ,but mothing that didn't matter ,
when you use something you have at least know what you are using.....i did not say too much things, i only said wasn't complete ,i actually didn't say enough...

you first start with fefining something then you can work with it...but you need other stuff for it , so you need again to define other stuff....

about...
Kharandhil, one of the purest forms of intelligence test, is how simply you can explain a complicated subject.

i try to but without hiding anything ,i explain it all ...
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

Offline Kei'Ariq

  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Ariq rides again
    • Wych Cult of Spank Me!
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2003, 11:56:34 AM »
That is a rather Descartes-like approach that you are taking there. At a philosophical level I agree with it; that nothing should be claimed as absolute unless you can verify it back to its most basic principles.

At a practical level, I don't believe that you should go back to that for every situation. It is much better to use constructions of the basic principles, provided that you are mindful of limitations of the application of those constructions. However, it is necessary to be able to go back to basic principles if it is called for.

So, unless your primary aim is to show off or educate others, it shouldn't be necessary to fully define zero, one, all our mathematical operators, and then all of the processes that lead to the explanation that 0/0 does not have a solution in the solution space that we use.

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2003, 12:25:40 PM »
i just want to explain things the same way a teacher would do

mathematics is an advanced level of philosophy ....
all sciences do need philosophy to start the way of thinking

i'm not trying to show off, just educate people
i do the best i can to do so
i know showing off won't bring me any good

the things i told where just some things i was tought and which i found interesting
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

Offline Bludd spilla

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 189
  • "The truth is out there....."
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2003, 01:09:32 PM »
could a moderator please lock this before someone suffers permanent brain damage or an anuerism from trying to get it through that you cannot divide by 0.  If you have five apples and divide them amongst your "0" friends you still have five apples so the entire question and deliberation are pointless.

I reiterate my former post as this whole thing is pointless and irrelevant to anyone.  We all (with two exceptions) see that zero is nothing, the absence of value defined by the symbol "0".  It will never be anything and it cannot be divided into or out of anythingwith any discernible change.  Please stop this before some one questions the ghost of Einstein for the answer.
what gives us the right to feel with remorse for a god they created
A god for the poor, for bathory we're bleeding out the devil hides in angelic shrouds
Blasphemy, as speaking out we've asked for it, for more of the same
Sad scheme, of ghettos created by the power elite, for our minds and souls burning
No longer for freedom invoked just more of the same.

Offline miclantecuthli

  • The Unpronouncable Man
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
  • Country: be
  • Forever in debt to your priceless advice
  • Armies: Empire (AoS), Chaos (AoS)
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2003, 01:33:25 PM »
Quote
So for a shorter version of my definition:
a/b = c if a = b.c

With a domain of
a: Real numbers
b: Real numbers, excluding zero

The only difference with my definition is b: real numbers, excluding zero.

But i don't understand this:
Quote
Also, I believe that
0/0 = 0 * 1/0
However, the 1/0 term should be treated as infinity, as the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero is +/- infinity. Zero times infinity is undefined, which is consistent with 0/0 being undefined.
1/0 is also undefined if your defintion is correct.

You're basicly defining "/" with b is not 0 -> I didn't define 0/0 -> it's undefined. this is correct according to your definition, but you should be consequent. 1/0 is also undefined according to your definition.

Quote
defining 0 takes a long very long time

it doesn't. 0 = #(empty conjunction)

Did you already ask your teacher?
Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear And I'm floating around my tin can
Far above the Moon
Planet Earth is blue
And there's nothing I can do

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2003, 02:21:15 PM »


Quote
defining 0 takes a long very long time

it doesn't. 0 = #(empty conjunction)

Did you already ask your teacher?
yes i, did ,first to my math teacher and he started to give me answer, but then said to me ,wait untill next year ,there you'll define it ,what 0 is ,but i've been looking for the answer for about 2 years and now i know the answer, but not the complete one

then i asked to my phisics teacher and she told me all there was to know , but afterwards the teacher of wath changed his mind and started to give me a more correct and long answer

there still are many things about 0 that i have to learn

the way i had to go threw to only get to the question was long, so i'm still on my way to learn almost everything

Bludd spilla if you don't like this topic just don't look at it, some people like myself do enjoy getting a messed
up mind with this stuff, it's almost like doing surf on a 5 meter high wave.....for me, the rush....
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

Offline Spirit Seer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Bow before the might of Iyanden foolish mon-keigh.
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2003, 06:53:40 PM »
you all do realize you are using axioms to prove your reasoning? Not laws, axioms! Axioms are not proven, thus you cannot prove your arguement with something that is unproven. I think kharandhil needs to look at others points of views. Also, let's see if we can be a bit more humble. (how pointless to ask)

Ok, yeah, everyone is right who said it is many things. I dont remember all the names, but if you beleive there is a single answer to it, you're wrong.

The problem is not 0/0, but rather any number divided by zero (I don't know all this fancy terminology, but lets just assume we're using real numbers).

(I'm not offering a single solution, the answer is undefinied, I'm just proving Kharandhil wrong)

Kharandhil seemed to think that this wold prove his point:

0/0= 0*1/0 = 0

Now, as I said, the problem is any number divided by zero. Lets examine the above expressions.

In the first expression, we have 0/0, nothing wrong, or so it seems. The definition of multiplication has alreayd been said, and I think we all agree on that. So, if dividing is multiplying by the inverse, then the second equation would also seem to be true. No problems have arised so far as we haven't done much with the zero, just write it in a different way.

Now, here is his fault:
He's trying to prove that 0/0=0 by saying 1/0=0, which is the exact same problem as the original one! I don't think I worded this very clearly, but it's like this:

He's making up laws to prove his point; he's not proving anything.

I still didn't get accross the message I wanted, but do you people see what I'm saying? I think miclantecuthli also pointed this out.


Just look at the other person's point of view for Christ's sake!
-Seer
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, and yet you still dare to oppose our will."

Offline Valkor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 543
  • Might is Right
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2003, 08:29:40 PM »
I just realized how stupid this is.

Offline M.G.SMurf

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Junior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 135
  • Country: nl
  • I don't exaggerate, I just like to post things big
  • Armies: Raven Guard
Re:Zero divided by zero equals= ????
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2003, 02:40:14 AM »
Let us agree that few agree and those who don't, do have a point. Though this tread is just a problem of words and not one of math, I will attempt to answer.

The following statements (yes, I have to sum this up) have been made:
0/0 = 0 (If you divide nothing by no-one, no-one gets nothing)
0/0 = 1 (a number divided by itself is 1)
0/0 = infinity (complex math: X/0 = infinity)
0/0 = Indefinable (simple math: X/0 = impossible)
0/0 = all number, logical or not (0/0 = X, so 0 = 0*X, therefore X can be every number)
And my own new answer:
0/0 = The M.G. Number (A number that hasn't been invented and/or defined yet)

This is all true, depending on what definition you use. It is like religion or the philosophical question: "What am I". So our problem is not: "What is 0/0?", but: "What Math do we use?".

There is also the fact that 0 once didn't existed, so that this discussion wouldn't have existed. Then we needed a number to define nothing and to solve our problems and we made up 0. We have an unsolvable problem, so why not invent a new number? History really repeats itself.

An other solution (complex math only) is to make an order of things as in: first you square root and quadruple (sorry, don't know if that's the word), then you multiply and divide, last you subtract and add. In this solution we need to agree if 0/X, X/0 or X = X*0 goes first.

My last solution is to make one math, either simple or complex.

I hope you don't flame me too hard on my points of view, but enjoy,

Greetz,

M.G. SMurf
« Last Edit: May 27, 2003, 02:42:41 AM by mean green space marine »
Order beats chaos, but without chaos, order would not exist.
The world is changing
Strike hard and fast, and then the enemy can't hurt you
The story of my chaplain

 


Powered by EzPortal