I'm rather dissapointed Dipsomaniac hasn't been in to demand you provide references for your talking points. I'm sure this was an oversight and he holds every argument to the same standards.
These arguments have been flogged to death on these forums... But if you really want to throw down hard facts instead of light banter then its go time...
The numbers vary so wildly and theres no real answer yet. Beyond that, how do you know what percentage were innocent, and how many were killed by that particular lie? Bush gave a giant list of reasons that congress all signed off on.
Every person who died in the Iraq war died due to the mistake. Every person who will die due to the destabilisation has died to this mistake. SO I GIVE YOU
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/These are the number of deaths JUST due to coalition military actions. But add the destabilisation "civil war" (its a civil war we are'nt kidding anyone by not calling it one) the loss of health care, the worser conditions. That number by the lancet a respected worldwide medical journal peer reviewed by the worlds best doctors is around 600,000 dead people because of the knock on effects. And rising.
And what the hell... ONE is too much. One dead person due to the lie is murder. Everyone else just compounds it. Can you bring back that one due to the lies sprouted? Can you tell his children that you killed their father because "you made a mistake"/"lied threw your teeth".
You're saying no nation in europe has tortured people in time of war? And you have proof that the US is torturing people of course? You're aware that the al-queda training manual tells all of their captured to claim abuse to further their cause in the media?
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf
Hehe... Thats retarded. Europe has a history dating back to the 300 BC plus... OF COURSE European countries at some point have tortured people. But the thing is they don't do it now. And of course we have proof of torture in the US. We have the british suspects who were released because they found out they were'nt "Terrorists". All the stuff they were subjected too was torture. Just look at the wikipedia article for a mild view of what happens there. Pure and simple example is sleep deprivation which we know has been used in Guantanamo. You can't do that to animals without being arrested for animal abuse. Humans deserve better treatment.
And do you want to hear the best one? Murnat Kaz, a turkish aid worker in pakistan. He was sold as a POW by the pakistanis (who have been supporting terrorism for just as long as the Taliban...). He reported... Temperature Shock, electrocution, drowning, food and water deprivation, chaining and mock hanging added to personal humiliation, abuse of the koran, mocking adhan, threatened with summary execution.... Others have mentioned sexual abuse. He was released because they could'nt tie him to anything. Amnesty has a charge sheet like that.
I disagree on healthcare, as I oppose all forms of socialism. On the second 'the evil corporations did it' part, how are companies in africa part of the US government jurisdiction?
Many have the US blessing. How much of your government is owned by Nestle? Or Proctor and Gamble?
And on the basis of healthcare. Better hope you get a decent job and don't fall ill. Just think how bad a doctor feels when he has to break the basic rule of medicine. We take that little oath seriously. When we start doing wallet biopsies you are no longer looked upon as a doctor. Thats our ethics. We aim for that kind of healthcare so that we can treat the poor and the rich the same. We treat people on the basis of their injury via the art of triage. Not because they have money.
What studies prove this otherwise very disparaging remark?
Simple ones... Kansas to all intents and purposes will almost always vote Republican and indeed nearly self destructed its education system by listening to morons. You draw lines on the basis of yes or no. You don't think of a maybe. You have no idea of "there is another way you know". The double view limits you to few ways to solve problems. There is no middle ground, there is no crazy ground, there is no intelligence in this system. It may have worked when people thought in a handful of ways, but it can't work in todays world where we have new thoughts at such a massive pace. Take a note from science.
If you don't change the way you operate to deal with the new ways things work, then all you face is extinction. Those who don't improve die.
All of the single mothers I am familiar with do not. Can you find any documentation that this is true in the US the majority of the time? And what bearing does it have on the discussion?
How many do you know? How do they feed their kids? Do you think their kids are going to go to college?
I think it was a stupid argument to go to war. Whats your point?
My point is people have died for it. Are we going to see justice? Hell even dictatorships have been toppled for that kind of mistake (Mussolini was hung like a dog by his people for dragging them into war). Are we going to see Bush in front of any sort of unbiased court to face the music for lying resulting in a massive expenditure of money to kill a bunch of people for no real reason apart from probably oil? Infact I would prefer it being oil. Its easier to understand that they died for greed rather than they died because the people who declared war were being led by a bunch of retards/a intelligence agency whose definition is used sarcastically.