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Author Topic: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue  (Read 5708 times)

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2007, 03:14:31 AM »
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When government gets big and bad enough to make probably 30-40% of the populations life suck, we'll see another revolt.  Perhaps by votes, perhaps by force.
   By then, if the trend continues, I doubt there will be much a shot at it. A police state such as the Prussians and germans tried was hard in the past, but with new tech it is certainly possible. Enforce concealed carry-licenses, tag cash, install CCTVs in abundance, and then remove habeas corpus (again) and you are pretty much there. You cannot vote, votes are controlled, checks and balances are out the window (just look at your lovely nimble vice-pres who jumps between branches of government as one example). And taking up arms in some sort of organised fashion against a 60-70% majority of the population? Without access to broadcast radion, cash or the ability to carry concealed weapons without going to prison without trial? Good luck.
   Yes, that is the worst-case scenario, but certainly within the scope of possibilities. It is technically possible. The question is just how long (a generation or two) it will take for someone to have the conviction enough to do it. Stealing a country is really profitable. It has been tried and done in the past, and I fear the US is setting itself up to get stolen next.

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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2007, 07:49:07 AM »
I hate when people force me to defend his ass.  What exactly did he personally and maliciously lie about?  The stupid WMDs?  He acted on information provided by our intelligence, which other nations confirmed.  It wasn't just his idea or even the republicans.. you can find quotes of all the heads of the democrats saying we needed to go in there and get rid of them.  Now I don't agree with pre-emptive war, but congress apparently does.  How did Bush trick them all?  Hes a genius now?  I figure they did have weapons and moved em to Syria, anyhow.

The Stupid WMDs lie killed half a million poor innocent iraqis whose lives can't be replaced. He has ruined the lives of more than that and thanks to the use of dep uranium will have screwed over the country for a fair few decades to come considering there is little to no oncological care in iraq. And lies about iraqi capability, they had no nukes and biological weapons. Oh My God can't you understand how bad this is? No court in the world will acquit you of murder if you say you killed another man because you thought he was going to attack you since you saw him armed with a machine gun, but really he was'nt doing anything and had a rusty knife to protect himself... Its madness (Go on you know one of you wants to say it... Its too easy...). And to me a two party system is'nt democracy since human beings don't think in binary. As I said, even flipping a coin has three options.


What is shocking?  Most of New Orleans has long since been rebuilt.  Death toll?  There was a manditory evacuation, (which is manditory in name only, our gov't will let you make up your own mind) some people were stupid enough to stay, and paid the price.  I evacuated, I'm alive.  Personally, I like that people have the choice.

Its still under reconstruction... STILL. No some people were poor enough not to be able to afford to leave. And the disaster response was atrocious. Pakistan managed to get aid and heavy lifting gear upto the top of the himalayas after their earthquake within 12 hours. There should have been aid standing by.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant.  We haven't had a revolution either, and europe is certainly not celebrating and massive amount of freedom.

Well we can't own guns but our governments can't investigate what library books we take out and what we believe in.
Oh our governments don't torture people. I am more likely to trust these dudes than someone who does that.

Ahh some of us did,  the patriot act is bullamphetamine parrot, and poorly named.

A small quiet minority who waved a bunch of placards. They did'nt call out their leaders. Start demanding more you pay their salary.

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Why does any of that require a US gov't fix, except arguably enron?

I would add that healthcare thing too...
Er? Many people in south america can't afford the price of water so are forced into substandard supplies since thier good water is owned by another country and is often shipped off as bottled water. Nestle is the butcher of africa since we can't even contemplate the increase in death toll due to them, they caused the deaths of children because they wanted to sell more baby formula. Coca Cola was draining ground water in rural india before it was kicked out (caused drought for farmers) and forced them to drink from the river which was being polluted by Coca Cola... These are just some of the wonderful things that these companies have done. The government can do better and does do better if it is controlled. Which is why we have stuff as independant controls.

A report prepared for a democrat and it concludes that they made misleading statements?  Thats an awfully weak conclusion for a report with a purpose.  If he was lying and we could prove it, well, we'd just get Cheney.  Of course perhaps we could get rid of them both, but then we'd get Pelosi, and shes been misleading since her first 2 weeks as speaker.  (I remember the deal with trying to raise the minimum wage, only one US location was excluded, US Samoa, I believe.  It turned out the big tuna fish company did a lot of processing there, and the company was headquartered in her district).

Erm... How much more do you guys need? WMDs, Terrorists, 20 minute ICBMs?


But it seems most likely hes deluded for whatever reason and thinks his agenda is best for the country.  I really don't enjoy defending him or the war in iraq.  The only good part of the war is that we got to undo a wrong from the first iraq war, when we encouraged the kurds to revolt (with suggestions of US backing) and then left and let saddam gas the snot out of them.  That and no one really is upset saddam is gone.  Its really upsetting to me now that its trendy to disagree with the war.  Everyone was all blinded by patriotism and gungho when it kicked off.   I was screaming at the TV in disbelief because we were attacking a country because they might attack us someday.

Actually its undoing a wrong done in the 50s and 60s when Saddam came to power under CIA interferance.



Regardless, we're straying away from the topic which was something along the lines of why don't americans care that the constitution isn't enforced, or are too stupid to know its not being enforced.  To which my answer still is, most of our lives are far too pleasant.  When government gets big and bad enough to make probably 30-40% of the populations life suck, we'll see another revolt.  Perhaps by votes, perhaps by force.


No most of your people live in regions where they are either brainwashed into believing whats being done is right. The others are too poor to care about anything apart from trying to get their next meal. When a single mother has to do two jobs to feed her kids you know its "not good".


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2007, 11:38:57 AM »
Then-Secretary of State Colin Powell gave this gem of a speech prior to the Iraq invasion.  The "evidence" consists of rumors from bribed informants, computer-generated cartoons, photos of toy planes, satillite photos of harmless buildings, etc.  That the media treated this as "undeniable proof" that Saddam Hussein had thousands of tons of nuclear weapons is the clearest example of a biased, laxidasical media that favors pro-government propoganda over skeptical reporting. 

I say this knowing that there is little point, when the dire, life-or-death accusation of possessing those weapons is referred to as "stupid WMD."

Another example of media bias is when a terrorist attack is applauded and cheered-for because it is titled "Shock and Awe."

These things happened in full public view only a few years ago, knowing them is an important part of "having a clue."
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Offline ratfusion

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2007, 01:19:18 PM »
I'm rather dissapointed Dipsomaniac hasn't been in to demand you provide references for your talking points.  I'm sure this was an oversight and he holds every argument to the same standards.


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The Stupid WMDs lie killed half a million poor innocent iraqis whose lives can't be replaced.
  The numbers vary so wildly and theres no real answer yet.   Beyond that, how do you know what percentage were innocent,  and how many were killed by that particular lie?  Bush gave a giant list of reasons that congress all signed off on.


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No court in the world will acquit you of murder if you say you killed another man because you thought he was going to attack you
  Have you guys missed the fact that I've disagreed with this war on principal since the beginning?  Because pre-eminent war was the main casus belli?


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Oh our governments don't torture people. I am more likely to trust these dudes than someone who does that.
  You're saying no nation in europe has tortured people in time of war?  And you have proof that the US is torturing people of course?  You're aware that the al-queda training manual tells all of their captured to claim abuse to further their cause in the media?
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf


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A small quiet minority who waved a bunch of placards. They did'nt call out their leaders. Start demanding more you pay their salary.
  What do you propose I do? The majority of voters disagreed with me. 


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I would add that healthcare thing too...
Er? Many people in south america can't afford the price of water so are forced into substandard supplies.....
  I disagree on healthcare, as I oppose all forms of socialism.  On the second 'the evil corporations did it' part,  how are companies in africa part of the US government jurisdiction?

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Actually its undoing a wrong done in the 50s and 60s when Saddam came to power under CIA interferance.
I completely agree.  Our foreign policy in the middleast is retarded.  We also removed an elected leader of Iran to impose a dictator before.  Hence I support Ron Paul, and non-interventionism. 

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No most of your people live in regions where they are either brainwashed into believing whats being done is right
What studies prove this otherwise very disparaging remark?

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When a single mother has to do two jobs to feed her kids you know its "not good".
All of the single mothers I am familiar with do not.  Can you find any documentation that this is true in the US the majority of the time?  And what bearing does it have on the discussion?


Please do not make me defend the Iraq war or Mr. Bush's actions any more.  Its off topic, and I really don't enjoy it.  I disagree with most of his policy and the Iraq war, but I feel compelled to chime in when people start jumping on some radical views that can't be substatiated.  Portraying him as a monster as has been done is simply not true and embarasses my country for no good reason.


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I say this knowing that there is little point, when the dire, life-or-death accusation of possessing those weapons is referred to as "stupid WMD."
  I think it was a stupid argument to go to war.  Whats your point?
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2007, 01:26:38 PM »
I'm rather dissapointed Dipsomaniac hasn't been in to demand you provide references for your talking points.  I'm sure this was an oversight and he holds every argument to the same standards.

You mean like this bit?
So many bullamphetamine parrot statements. So few actual sources or back ups. This thread has a limited life span.

It wasn't below a quote and thus applies to everyone. Feel free to hit the report to button to notify a Global/Admin if you feel the "bias" in here is too much for you. I've never voted for the Democratic Party or sent them donations if that helps   ;)

As for the training manual, ever heard of the Black Panther's colouring book?
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Offline ratfusion

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2007, 02:06:52 PM »
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As for the training manual, ever heard of the Black Panther's colouring book?

Can't say I have, do tell. 

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Feel free to hit the report to button to notify a Global/Admin if you feel the "bias" in here is too much for you.

I wasn't aware that this board was required to be unbaised, actually.  Besides, its all in good humor I hope.

I do eventually need to get some painting done, but we can do the gun control and socialism v capitalism debates in a bit if you care to kick them off.  I don't really want to do the iraq war bit,  we should find someone who actually supports it to argue for it.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2007, 07:25:43 PM »
I'm rather dissapointed Dipsomaniac hasn't been in to demand you provide references for your talking points.  I'm sure this was an oversight and he holds every argument to the same standards.

These arguments have been flogged to death on these forums... But if you really want to throw down hard facts instead of light banter then its go time...


The numbers vary so wildly and theres no real answer yet.   Beyond that, how do you know what percentage were innocent,  and how many were killed by that particular lie?  Bush gave a giant list of reasons that congress all signed off on.

Every person who died in the Iraq war died due to the mistake. Every person who will die due to the destabilisation has died to this mistake. SO I GIVE YOU
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
These are the number of deaths JUST due to coalition military actions. But add the destabilisation "civil war" (its a civil war we are'nt kidding anyone by not calling it one) the loss of health care, the worser conditions. That number by the lancet a respected worldwide medical journal peer reviewed by the worlds best doctors is around 600,000 dead people because of the knock on effects. And rising.

And what the hell... ONE is too much. One dead person due to the lie is murder. Everyone else just compounds it. Can you bring back that one due to the lies sprouted? Can you tell his children that you killed their father because "you made a mistake"/"lied threw your teeth".

You're saying no nation in europe has tortured people in time of war?  And you have proof that the US is torturing people of course?  You're aware that the al-queda training manual tells all of their captured to claim abuse to further their cause in the media?
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf

Hehe... Thats retarded. Europe has a history dating back to the 300 BC plus... OF COURSE European countries at some point have tortured people. But the thing is they don't do it now. And of course we have proof of torture in the US. We have the british suspects who were released because they found out they were'nt "Terrorists". All the stuff they were subjected too was torture. Just look at the wikipedia article for a mild view of what happens there. Pure and simple example is sleep deprivation which we know has been used in Guantanamo. You can't do that to animals without being arrested for animal abuse. Humans deserve better treatment.

And do you want to hear the best one? Murnat Kaz, a turkish aid worker in pakistan. He was sold as a POW by the pakistanis (who have been supporting terrorism for just as long as the Taliban...). He reported... Temperature Shock, electrocution, drowning, food and water deprivation, chaining and mock hanging added to personal humiliation, abuse of the koran, mocking adhan, threatened with summary execution.... Others have mentioned sexual abuse. He was released because they could'nt tie him to anything. Amnesty has a charge sheet like that.


I disagree on healthcare, as I oppose all forms of socialism.  On the second 'the evil corporations did it' part,  how are companies in africa part of the US government jurisdiction?

Many have the US blessing. How much of your government is owned by Nestle? Or Proctor and Gamble?
And on the basis of healthcare. Better hope you get a decent job and don't fall ill. Just think how bad a doctor feels when he has to break the basic rule of medicine. We take that little oath seriously. When we start doing wallet biopsies you are no longer looked upon as a doctor. Thats our ethics. We aim for that kind of healthcare so that we can treat the poor and the rich the same. We treat people on the basis of their injury via the art of triage. Not because they have money.

What studies prove this otherwise very disparaging remark?

Simple ones... Kansas to all intents and purposes will almost always vote Republican and indeed nearly self destructed its education system by listening to morons. You draw lines on the basis of yes or no. You don't think of a maybe. You have no idea of "there is another way you know". The double view limits you to few ways to solve problems. There is no middle ground, there is no crazy ground, there is no intelligence in this system. It may have worked when people thought in a handful of ways, but it can't work in todays world where we have new thoughts at such a massive pace. Take a note from science.
If you don't change the way you operate to deal with the new ways things work, then all you face is extinction. Those who don't improve die.

All of the single mothers I am familiar with do not.  Can you find any documentation that this is true in the US the majority of the time?  And what bearing does it have on the discussion?

How many do you know? How do they feed their kids? Do you think their kids are going to go to college?

I think it was a stupid argument to go to war.  Whats your point?



My point is people have died for it. Are we going to see justice? Hell even dictatorships have been toppled for that kind of mistake (Mussolini was hung like a dog by his people for dragging them into war). Are we going to see Bush in front of any sort of unbiased court to face the music for lying resulting in a massive expenditure of money to kill a bunch of people for no real reason apart from probably oil? Infact I would prefer it being oil. Its easier to understand that they died for greed rather than they died because the people who declared war were being led by a bunch of retards/a intelligence agency whose definition is used sarcastically.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2007, 07:36:52 PM »


So much for that. *Click*
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2007, 02:54:40 AM »
Which is so sad, because I think that a lot of our posters would be benefited from hearing the lecture linked in the first post. Oh well. It was a good try.

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