Topic: EO Eldar "Chapter Approved" Article

[Roy]

Thanks to the generosity of Dark Flame, our local mod, we've been given a separate thread to work specifically on the Chapter Approved article.

Here we can discuss the article, tweak the rules, and work on editorials, batreps, statistics, and anything else needed for the article. Links to summaries, statistics, batreps and ultimately a fully fledged pdf document will be posted on this original post as they are ready.

All active partisipants will be mentioned in this post as soon as they are all identified.

Please do not spam this thread with ideas, concepts and/or opinions that have little or nothing to do with the article. If it get's bad, I will ask Dark Flame to delete such threads.

The most recent summary can be found here.
Currently, battle reports are to be posted in the blog experimental rules report found stickied in the Campaigns and Battle Reports board.

It would also be great if the people working on the article, would add a link to the rules, like I have in my signature. All you need to do is post the code below into your signature settings:

Code: [Select]

[b][url=http://eldar40k.blogspot.com/2005/02/eldar-chapter-approved-4th-ed.html]EO Eldar "Chapter Approved" Article[/url][/b]

Playtesting to date so far:

69Lazarus @ 14 games
Roy @ 1 game
Wacko @ 1 game
The outcast @ 1 game
The_phat_guy @ 1 report for multiple games with no real data?? (please work on that) 


In these games the following units have been tested:

Dark reapers: 3 games against marines
Vypers w/ shuriken cannons: 7 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 2 games vs. eldar
Dire avengers: 4 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 1 game vs. eldar
Guardians: 8 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. nids / 1 game vs. necrons / 2games vs. eldar
Seer council: 1 game vs. marines
Farseer: 11 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 1 game vs. eldar
Shining spears: 4 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
Scorpions: 5 games total but no real testing needed for the change made.
Avatar: 2 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. eldar
banshees w/ acrobat: 1 game vs. chaos
Veteran crew upgrades: 7 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 2 games vs. eldar
TL shuriken cannon+cannon upgrade+BS upgrade (serpent): 1 game vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
Guardian jetbikes: 3 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
wraithguard: 2 games vs. marines



From the above you can see what units have been used and against who. We need more playtesting especially against some of the armies not shown already. Any feedback on this would be appreciated.


Conclussions from playtesting so far:

Shuriken catapults: got a much needed fix with the range increase. Most all of the testing has been against T4 3+ save types so we need to see some soft squishy targets for them to hit. Perhaps see some waveserpent action for the "scoot and shoot" taking advantage of their new range. Also use of them in sqauds without a weapon platform to take advantage of fleet of foot. USF needs to be given serious consideration as well in reagards to the guardians.

Dark reapers: work much better with their improved armour. As with everything in the eldar list they really shine when combined with a farseer. All of the testing so far has been against marines but then again that is what they are made for.

shuriken cannons: Rending so far in my opinion has not proved to be overpowering. The best use of them so far has been seen on dual cannon vypers and the wave serpent. Another factor of their success has been the reduced cost of the upgrade available to vehicles. If you are a lucky roller than you will obviously have more success than someone who is not. This of course applies to gaming in general. Vypers still need to be tested against some hard targets like landraiders etc. Like to see more testing of the wave serpent with TL cannons & cannon upgrade. Another idea is a falcon with pulse laser & 2 shuriken cannons.

Dire avengers: The avengers have been tested against a variety of opponents and seem to work fine. the increase in range and the sharpshooter doctrine make a huge difference. As it stands now I personally wouldnt bother taking furious assault and possibly even stubborn to save points for use elsewhere. Anyone have any thoughts on this? How do you think other players will choose if given the choice? when you load up a sqaud with all powers / exarch / grenades you are in the 200 point range....Will people pay that?

Seer council: Very limited testing has been done. The most room for abuse with the two power per turn rule we are testing. We need to do more testing of this...

Farseer: Has gained a big boost in power for the same reason as above example. New wargear helps quite a bit vs. the dreaded psychic hood. Much playtesting has been done with the seer and I think we have a good picture of how thw changes work.

Striking scorpions: Limited testing as the only change was to make stelth usefull all of the time. Testing considered done.

Shining spears: Very effective yet still costly to use. A 3 man sqaud kitted out nicely still costs around 200 points. So far they seem to work but need more testing. Mostly used against marines so far. I would like to see them used against something different.

Avatar: Original playtest version was a true beast. Simply awesome to behold especially with fortune on him. The new version is more affordable and fixes the biggest gripes we have with him. Slow movement and goes down to small arms fire too easy. More testing is needed but I think we will be good with this one.

Howling banshees(acrobatic): Very limited testing has been done on this. Since this is an old ability we are merely ressurrecting I think we may be ok with this as is. Any thoughts?

Veteran crew upgrades: Huge help to the falcon, prism and vypers. I personally think that the cost is too low for the falcon but gave in to the single cost for all vehicles. I think we could pay more for this based on savings elsewhere in the list...Any thoughts?

Guardian jetbikes: They have seen limited testing and mostly against marines. they seem to do well so far with the range increase + cost reduction. The rending shuriken cannon makes them more of a viable option as well. Needs more testing...Especiall y if someone can make use of their 6" assault move to do some peek-a-boo shooting like the tau do.

Wraithguard: Limited testing as they are only changed by cost reduction. The true value lies in what you can buy with the savings. They were way overpriced to begin with. Testing done in my opinion.

Regards

Roy

[Lazarus]

excellent. I look forward to seeing some playtesters in here. It's nice to see we have our own thread for this now as it will be much easier to follow.

69Lazarus.

[The Blighter]

Just a few things I had in mind:

1- By Counter Charge you mean Counter Attack uni rule? if so 30 points are just too much.
2- If the Dark Reaper's cost will be increased to 40 you'll bury the unit as it is already dead. instead you need to resurrect it with a lower cost.

[Lazarus]

Posted by: The Blighter

If the Dark Reaper's cost will be increased to 40 you'll bury the unit as it is already dead. instead you need to resurrect it with a lower cost.

I have done playtesting with the reapers @ 40 points each and they work great! A 3+ save goes a long way to keeping them alive. Please keep in mind it is how the list works together that truly makes them strong. In our playtest version the farseer casts two powers a turn.....fortuning the reapers makes them last a very long time. If a whirlwind template fell on them you would have re-rollable 3+ saves...thats worth 3 extra points in my book any day of the week. their fire power is awesome it was only their survivability that was in question. 3+ save for an extra 3 points does that.

of course you are welcome to help playtest with us and try this out for yourself. 

By Counter Charge you mean Counter Attack uni rule?

yes, I believe so.

69Lazarus.

[rax]

By Counter Charge you mean Counter Attack uni rule?

Ja, zis is korrekt. 

Or, more seriously, yes that was my intention. Concerning the points cost, it's a straight switch with the Surprise Assault power. Chaos Space Marines pay 2 pts per model for this power, so that's only a 10 pt difference in a full squad. Considering that we're lowering quite a few other costs, 30 pts doesn't strike me as massively overpriced.

For Warp Spiders especially, Counter-Attack is useful since it allows them to fight at full strength if charged (and with the new Rapid Fire rules, the odds of them initiating a charge are slim to none). This will mean more casualties inflicted on the attacker before the Spiders use Withdraw (i.e. Hit & Run) to scoot out of CC, and lessens the likelihood of all Spiders within 2" being killed off, which will often mean that they lost the combat (with all the risks that entails).

But feel free to convince me otherwise...


Cheers - Rax

[The__Phat__Guy]

I playtested some stuff on the weekend against tau, space marines and more space marines with my ultwearmy

I used the farseer doing 2 powers a turn, the shuriken cannon with ap4 and reduced cost, and dark reapers.

the farseers casting 2 powers per turn went well, they were extremely powerful, but not too powerful.
the shuriken cannon worked wonders against the tau, but the same vs. marines.
and the reapers worked really well too. Now they're very hard to kill if put into good cover.

In the first game against space marines everything went pretty well, a squad of vypers with dual shuriken cannons blew a unit of landspeeders that shot at me with their heavy bolters and missed/ didn't pen or glance.
the farseer did well and the dark reapers did awesome. Definately the stars of the game.

the second one against tau was good. this is where the shuriken cannons really shone. the reapers did pretty well but not amazingly as they didn't attract fire but the exarch used crack shot and killed a lot of bunch up firewarriors that were hiding in a bunker, and pinned them too, also in the last turn of the game he insta-killed his commander with his missile launcher.. My guided dual shuriken cannon vyper squad really helped me pull out this win.

In the third game I think the guy I played saw how well the dark reapers did in my first game. So after they killed a good 7 marines out of a ten man squad in turn one they got owned in turn 2 by a unit of deep striking terminators. They killed all but the exarch. Before he got crushed on hth next turn by the termies (he didn't want to shoot because he thought killing him in close combat was a little more satisfying for him) because in the exarch's last turn he blew the command squads rhino to bits. In the next turn I shot the termies with everthing in los and range, including 2 mind wars. Only one was left standing (damn those 5+invulnerable saves) and that one was cut down by my seer council in cc.

all in all I think the changes worked pretty well. They were really balanced (ok maybe a little tipped in our favour).

[Lazarus]

Posted by: The__Phat__Guy

I playtested some stuff on the weekend against tau, space marines and more space marines  with my ultwearmy

great! we need playtesters badly. If you dont mind please place the battle reports in the battle report thread so that we can have them all in one place. this way we wont have to go searching up and down through everything else we type in here.
here is the link for you:

http://www.40konline.com/index.php/topic,78527.120.html

the shuriken cannon worked wonders against the tau, but the same vs. marines.
and the reapers worked really well too. Now they're very hard to kill if put into good cover

need more description to know what is going on. the cannons worked well but what did they do? how many rending hits did you get? etc. we need to see real comparrisons from the way it worked before to the way it works now under these proposed changes.

example: "my vyper came up over the woods and shot a tactical squad with both of it's shuriken cannons. I had a veteran crew upgrade on the vyper. 6 shots and i got 5 hits total. 2 were rending and 2 were 3's which would have normally missed. with this information we know exactly what the changes acomplished. (2 extra hits due to BS upgrade and 2 kills from rending) 

try and use the format like the one I am using in the battle report section. we need to know mission and turn by turn play if possible. It is work and I'm not denying that.



Posted by: Roy

partisipants

your license to pick on any spelling mistakes of mine in the future has been revoked. 


69Lazarus.

[Roy]

your license to pick on any spelling mistakes of mine in the future has been revoked. 

I see you still don't use capital letters.. hmmm..

OK, I'll grant you that one. Participants is the correct word, I know that. But it just goes to show, even I can make mistakes

And I see it took 1900+ post for yo to get a worthwhile signature

@ The__Phat__Guy: Please, post a full batrep in the blog batrep thread, thanks

[Lonewolf]

I wonder, if that 3+ armoursave of the reapers really does that much of a difference. They are mostly deployed as far back as possible, and so only weapons with a range of around 30" should hit them (depending board size). Now most weapons, i am aware of with this range have anyway ap 3 or better (or worse than 4). In the reports from Lazarus, they seemed mostly to be deployed in cover anyway. Wouldnt it be better to lower their points to perhaps 30 points and wait for any other changes for the codex?

[Roy]

I wonder, if that 3+ armoursave of the reapers really does that much of a difference. They are mostly deployed as far back as possible, and so only weapons with a range of around 30" should hit them (depending board size). Now most weapons, i am aware of with this range have anyway ap 3 or better (or worse than 4). In the reports from Lazarus, they seemed mostly to be deployed in cover anyway. Wouldnt it be better to lower their points to perhaps 30 points and wait for any other changes for the codex?

It makes all the differance in the world. Your very expensive reapers usually got shot to pieces by Whirlwinds, heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons, heavy flamers, submunitions and what not.

The 3+ save means they can withstand all those weapons. And makes them a choice you can depend on. I playtested them with fortune, and they got shot at by 16 stormbolters without taking a single casualty. Of course, that was being lucky, and using a farseer on top, but still.

[rax]

@Lonewulf

Bugger, Roy beat me to it. Still I'll let my comments stand:

Important Aspect Warrior-killing weapons such as the Whirlwind and the Heavy Bolter don't have AP 3. Armour Save 3+ means the Dark Reapers suddenly have a 2/3 chance of surviving hits from these weapons. Guns which have AP good enough to beat a 3+ save are usually single shot weapons, which means the opponent will have to put more effort into killing the Dark Reapers.

Thus, with a 3+ save the Reapers become more survivable, forcing your opponent to use weapons which might otherwise be reserved for your Wraithlord or tanks to take them down. In short, they become a survivable fire magnet that can dish out the hurt in return.

However, I encourage you to playtest them and form your own opinion on the matter!


Cheers - Rax

[Lonewolf]

Ok, its just the fact, that in my gaming group of 6 there is no single marine player (chaos or normal), so my experiences regarding whirlwinds are (seemingly mercifully) limited.

[Roy]

Ok, its just the fact, that in my gaming group of 6 there is no single marine player (chaos or normal), so my experiences regarding whirlwinds are (seemingly mercifully) limited.

That is... truly amazing!!
No marine players?? At ALL? I don't know wether your fortunate or not. I suppose the marines should at least be represented..

[Lazarus]

Posted by: Roy

I see you still don't use capital letters.. hmmm..

Grrrr. Fine I'll start using capital letters. Happy?

yo

But then I'll still pick on your spelling.  

And I see it took 1900+ post for yo to get a worthwhile signature

Yeah, didn't know how to put the code thing in. I'd like to add a banner next and get an avatar as I get the time..



Posted by: Lonewulf

In the reports from Lazarus, they seemed mostly to be deployed in cover anyway. Wouldnt it be better to lower their points to perhaps 30 points and wait for any other changes for the codex?

The smart thing to do is put them in cover wouldn't you agree?  You would do so as they are right now in the codex right? Wouldnt marines stick their devastators in cover to try and give them some protection from our starcannons?

The actual change to 3+ save means that they can have a chance to survive against certain weapons when there is no cover available. Like a whirlwind for example. With the present rules as they are if you fail to find cover and that template lands on them you lose each one of those expensive 37 point models on a roll of 2' or better. Heavy bolters and many others fit the role of AP4 killers. Deepstrike options etc. Even with them in cover they are relying on the new save and not the cover save itself. That is why they need to cost 3 points more instead of 7 points less.  

Give them a try and you will find they are very nice indeed this way.

69Lazarus.

[Roy]

Grrrr. Fine I'll start using capital letters. Happy?

Hey! Well done See how professional your post looks now?

yo

But then I'll still pick on your spelling.  

That's fair Yo yo!

Yeah, didn't know how to put the code thing in. I'd like to add a banner next and get an avatar as I get the time..

If you need any help, let me know

[rax]

@Roy/Laz

Professional? All those bold caps at the start of every sentence are making my eyes ache. Hmmph. 

Now, would you boys agree that your mutual lighthearted bantering is just a wee bit OT? How are we supposed to crack down on that in this thread in the future, if we're all proven sinners ourselves?


Cheers - Rax

[Lazarus]

Posted by: rax

Now, would you boys agree that your mutual lighthearted bantering is just a wee bit OT? How are we supposed to crack down on that in this thread in the future, if we're all proven sinners ourselves?

I apologize. I keep forgetting I am being paid piles and piles of money for my time here.   

I will get right back to work and cease this foolish horseplay of mine....um, right after I do one more thing. >>>     


69Lazarus.

[Roy]

You're right of course Rax. It has been friendly banter between me and laz, over a month now on several threads.

So I'm thinking, should we reevalutate what is critical and what is moderately critical. Some of our sugestions will never see the light of day I think.

[Lazarus]

Agreed. I am at the present working on battle report / playtesting data. When I am finished I will post a summary here so that we can see what we have so far. Any changes to our playtest agenda I would like to have in place as soon as possible as I plan to do several games this weekend. (pictures and everything I hope)

I'm doing this all from work so I may have to stop at some point and actually do my job. (lol)

69Lazarus.

[Lazarus]

Playtesting to date so far:

69Lazarus @ 14 games
Roy @ 1 game
Wacko @ 1 game
The outcast @ 1 game
The_phat_guy @ 1 report for multiple games with no real data?? (please work on that) 


In these games the following units have been tested:

Dark reapers: 3 games against marines
Vypers w/ shuriken cannons: 7 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 2 games vs. eldar
Dire avengers: 4 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 1 game vs. eldar
Guardians: 8 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. nids / 1 game vs. necrons / 2games vs. eldar
Seer council: 1 game vs. marines
Farseer: 11 games vs. marines / 2 games vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 1 game vs. eldar
Shining spears: 4 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
Scorpions: 5 games total but no real testing needed for the change made.
Avatar: 2 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. nids / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. eldar
banshees w/ acrobat: 1 game vs. chaos
Veteran crew upgrades: 7 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. chaos / 1 game vs. necrons / 2 games vs. eldar
TL shuriken cannon+cannon upgrade+BS upgrade (serpent): 1 game vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
Guardian jetbikes: 3 games vs. marines / 1 game vs. eldar
wraithguard: 2 games vs. marines



From the above you can see what units have been used and against who. We need more playtesting especially against some of the armies not shown already. Any feedback on this would be appreciated.


Conclussions from playtesting so far:

Shuriken catapults: got a much needed fix with the range increase. Most all of the testing has been against T4 3+ save types so we need to see some soft squishy targets for them to hit. Perhaps see some waveserpent action for the "scoot and shoot" taking advantage of their new range. Also use of them in sqauds without a weapon platform to take advantage of fleet of foot. USF needs to be given serious consideration as well in reagards to the guardians.

Dark reapers: work much better with their improved armour. As with everything in the eldar list they really shine when combined with a farseer. All of the testing so far has been against marines but then again that is what they are made for.

shuriken cannons: Rending so far in my opinion has not proved to be overpowering. The best use of them so far has been seen on dual cannon vypers and the wave serpent. Another factor of their success has been the reduced cost of the upgrade available to vehicles. If you are a lucky roller than you will obviously have more success than someone who is not. This of course applies to gaming in general. Vypers still need to be tested against some hard targets like landraiders etc. Like to see more testing of the wave serpent with TL cannons & cannon upgrade. Another idea is a falcon with pulse laser & 2 shuriken cannons.

Dire avengers: The avengers have been tested against a variety of opponents and seem to work fine. the increase in range and the sharpshooter doctrine make a huge difference. As it stands now I personally wouldnt bother taking furious assault and possibly even stubborn to save points for use elsewhere. Anyone have any thoughts on this? How do you think other players will choose if given the choice? when you load up a sqaud with all powers / exarch / grenades you are in the 200 point range....Will people pay that?

Seer council: Very limited testing has been done. The most room for abuse with the two power per turn rule we are testing. We need to do more testing of this...

Farseer: Has gained a big boost in power for the same reason as above example. New wargear helps quite a bit vs. the dreaded psychic hood. Much playtesting has been done with the seer and I think we have a good picture of how thw changes work.

Striking scorpions: Limited testing as the only change was to make stelth usefull all of the time. Testing considered done.

Shining spears: Very effective yet still costly to use. A 3 man sqaud kitted out nicely still costs around 200 points. So far they seem to work but need more testing. Mostly used against marines so far. I would like to see them used against something different.

Avatar: Original playtest version was a true beast. Simply awesome to behold especially with fortune on him. The new version is more affordable and fixes the biggest gripes we have with him. Slow movement and goes down to small arms fire too easy. More testing is needed but I think we will be good with this one.

Howling banshees(acrobatic): Very limited testing has been done on this. Since this is an old ability we are merely ressurrecting I think we may be ok with this as is. Any thoughts?

Veteran crew upgrades: Huge help to the falcon, prism and vypers. I personally think that the cost is too low for the falcon but gave in to the single cost for all vehicles. I think we could pay more for this based on savings elsewhere in the list...Any thoughts?

Guardian jetbikes: They have seen limited testing and mostly against marines. they seem to do well so far with the range increase + cost reduction. The rending shuriken cannon makes them more of a viable option as well. Needs more testing...Especiall y if someone can make use of their 6" assault move to do some peek-a-boo shooting like the tau do.

Wraithguard: Limited testing as they are only changed by cost reduction. The true value lies in what you can buy with the savings. They were way overpriced to begin with. Testing done in my opinion.


Battle report format is now available on the very first page of the blog battle report section. You can find it here:

http://www.40konline.com/index.php/topic,78527.0.html

Please be sure to follow it and place your reports in that thread instead of this one. 

69Lazarus.



  Corrected the spelling of Shining Spears so Roy can't pick on you 
      Dark Flame

drat. I was hoping he would find that.