Topic: 5th ed meta; current state of the Eldar army

[Gutstikk]

I'm viewing this from a stictly competitive standpoint.

Understood, it is you after all

I'm not talking only from the tournament standpoint but when addressing you generally I try to focus on competitive options.

Infantry will get mowed down in assaults, as will the vehicles. With Nids as with Orks, a competent player ought to have a second wave close enough to the first that even if they can't surround your vehicle, should your survivors hop out and charge them, they will get cut down. The tanks don't contribute enough to the gunfight most of the time, whereas the infantry/walkers/spiders etc tend to do exactly that.

I still play hybrid with an emphasis on mobility, so I'm not suggesting that skimmers will be junk or anything of the sort. I just feel that the skimmers don't do enough damage to the numbers game, and with IG, Nids and Orks able to pile the numbers on, and with Space Wolves able to emulate it through volume of attacks, there's got to come a point where full mech takes too much impact off the Eldar attack. And we both know how difficult it is to hide for the whole match; the board is certainly much smaller in 5th ed. At some point it becomes necessary to up the quantity of firepower the army pumps out, and this is primarily through our infantry units.

[Lazarus]

Understood, it is you after all
I'm not talking only from the tournament standpoint but when addressing you generally I try to focus on competitive options.

What I've found in general, is that if everyone is playing "tame" lists, the codex doesn't matter as much. I only have to really worry about my meta when regarding competitive or "top tier" games. That's the reason why I thought this thread was about remaining competitive.

Infantry will get mowed down in assaults, as will the vehicles.

My vehicles often survive the assaults or it takes alot of effort to bring them down. It is often planned that they go down which sets up my counter attack.

The tanks don't contribute enough to the gunfight most of the time, whereas the infantry/walkers/spiders etc tend to do exactly that.

I just feel that the skimmers don't do enough damage to the numbers game, and with IG, Nids and Orks able to pile the numbers on, and with Space Wolves able to emulate it through volume of attacks, there's got to come a point where full mech takes too much impact off the Eldar attack.

Do you think it was the firepower from my tanks that netted me all of my massacres in tourney play? 


I'm not going to say that you can't win with some foot units....I just found that I couldn't do so with the regularity and massacres (battle points) I'd need to win overall titles.

[Agelmar]

I still play a mixed list.  The changes I've had to make in 5th Edition are to move all my Dire Avengers into Serpents/Falcons.  This has pushed my Banshees out of the list.  Now my foot portion is Scorpions, Avatar, and Eldrad.  Sometimes I'll include some Warp Spiders.

In 5th, I'd had a greater tendency to rely on my close combat units to really get the big wins.  My tactics now are to shot transports above anything else and then whittle down units before I hit them in combat.  My local meta is mostly power armor, but has recently seen some upswing with IG.  From what I'm hearing, there will be quite a few new Nid players when the codex hits.

With what I know of the Nid codex, I'm not too worried about it.  The big issue is the lack of offensive grenades on most units.  My plan will remain, whittle down units (especially monstrous creatures) and then hit them in assault.  Fortuned units are my resiliency and I continue to rely on them.

In fun games, I've not really seen much change in 5th edition.  Mobility is still very important and Eldar are still at an advantage (though less now).

General idea of my competitive list:
Avatar
Eldrad
10x Scorpions w/ Claw
Some Fire Dragons in Serpent
~20 Dire Avengers all in some sort of transport
Falcon or Wave Serpents
Fire Prism

Depending on the points and the day, I will add:
Banshees
Warp Spiders

My only losses in 5th Ed with my Eldar have been to Horde Orks with Snitrok in Dawn of War Missions with Orks deploying first.  Chaos Demons have given me difficulties (draws) because of their deep striking and firepower (Tzeench lists).

[Eidolon]

I kinda enjoy the new meta. I dont take tournaments too seriously. Its all I play in, but I play largely for the competition rather then the winning.

With that said I think the new lack of eldar in the meta means that Im winning more, as people simply do not expect eldar. Finally we have to play smarter. Lower points on our tanks and some infantry would be nice. As well as stuff that doesnt HURR HURR UR POWERS DONT WORK being as common would be nice.

[Gutstikk]

No worries CS, I'm looking to here what the situation on the ground is for as many as possible.

@ Lazarus: Your meta is of course tourney play, so your viewpoint re: tourney play is exactly what I'm looking for, and getting a feel for how your tourney experiences compare to those of others - both those who go for the competition and those who are playing for keeps.

@ Eidolon: Eldar were never common for my earlier LGS but they're a bit more popular where I play now; however, my lists are generally being different in approach than what's played there. Most frequent was a mech eldar player and a completely tank-less player, so my hybrid forms the third wave of the Eldar forces there. I agree that many people can be surprised by Eldar if they don't play them often, strictly due to the huge unit variety we have available.

@ Agelmar: I'm anticipating assaults becoming more difficult to live through, but hopefully enough rounds being pumped into a target in advance will tip the scales enough to power through.

[Lazarus]

@ Lazarus: Your meta is of course tourney play, so your viewpoint re: tourney play is exactly what I'm looking for, and getting a feel for how your tourney experiences compare to those of others - both those who go for the competition and those who are playing for keeps.

Yeah, my local meta has some pretty strong players so my opinion is likely biased at times. I should (if things go my way) have my hands on the Nid dex soon so I can start picking it apart. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's going to deliver a serious blow to our competitive chances in 5th edition....

[moc065]

The only infantry that I still take to the competitive seen is my JB Council...

Other than that, Fully Mech Eldar lists have worked better for me over all... I had good success with other styles (Saim-Hann, Iyanden, Hybrid) but those lists did not have the same ability to Draw/Win as the Fully Mech lists... although the opponent often made a huge difference.

In Local games, My Eldar (non-Mech) are now at 10 wins, and 3 draws since their last loss... and before that they had 6 wins... so Eldar are strong; but vs serious opponents, the Eldar must be configured to deal with some things and still massacre; thus the Full Mech is simply better (for me) in the long run...

Lazarus runs an Uber Council with his Full Mech, so he is probably getting more Massacres than I do (JB Council, does not deal damage in the same manner)... and for a big Tournie, I think that I too would run the Uber Council in Serpent... as its one of the toughest units in the game, and it can deal with nearly anything.


Cheers

[Eidolon]

@ Eidolon: Eldar were never common for my earlier LGS but they're a bit more popular where I play now; however, my lists are generally being different in approach than what's played there. Most frequent was a mech eldar player and a completely tank-less player, so my hybrid forms the third wave of the Eldar forces there. I agree that many people can be surprised by Eldar if they don't play them often, strictly due to the huge unit variety we have available.

I think its the speed that kills people. They are used to being able to set up in one spot, and determine where the fight will happen. With divination/reserve games and 24" moves I can choose to run away from their main line and pick apart the enemies lines. Naturally the worst lists for eldar to face then are other very fast armies.

[bebe]

Well I decided to play a pure 5th ed list on Monday at vet's night. I blame you guys and this thread, lol. I fielded

Autarch, Fusion Gun
Farseer Fortune RoWard
2x 5 FD w/Exarch DBF in WS Scat/Cannon
3x 5 DaVU in WS EML/Cannon
2x Fire Prism

Disclaimer
This is not a list I would typically play at vet's night . In fact I surprised both opponents who expected WG et all.

Conclusions - there are definately lists built for 5ed. My list sailed through both matches. I've never had it that easy with Iyanden. Now I will say this ...

It wasn't much fun. Everything starts in reserve anf then its gang up on a flank time all game. Mobility does rule in 5ed though. I'm convinced. Not enough to ditch my Iyanden though. I'll win through attrition and skill next go around and forgo the limburger.

Gotta go shower now.

[moc065]

I have seen some pretty hard hitting Iyanden lists (3-4 MC's can be scary and effective)... and the Wall of Wraithbone is probably the most resilient Eldar unit out there....

I wouldn't give up on Iyanden; but I do agree that they are better suited to certain match ups, and that Speed is a huge factor in 5th Ed. I am surprised that you didn't have a hard hitting assault unit though... as I find that another one of 5th Eds best ways to massacre... Assault and run them down....

Cheers.

[Eidolon]

Iyanden is gonna rape face when playing the new nids. Oh noes no more eternal warrior on beslubbering everything, enjoy your wraithcannons. Of course if trygons can DERP STRIKE and assault in the same turn it will be a painful fight.

[Lazarus]

Posted by: moc065

the Wall of Wraithbone is probably the most resilient Eldar unit out there....

Against shooting sure.....lots of CC stuff that makes them go away unlike the council. I'd say the council still gets my vote as most resilient in our book.



Posted by: Eidolon
 

Iyanden is gonna rape face when playing the new nids. Oh noes no more eternal warrior on beslubbering everything, enjoy your wraithcannons. Of course if trygons can DERP STRIKE and assault in the same turn it will be a painful fight.

I dunno. CC is still going to be rough between stuff that ignores armour and poisoned attacks that wound on 4+
I need to see the book first...

[bebe]

I wouldn't give up on Iyanden; but I do agree that they are better suited to certain match ups, and that Speed is a huge factor in 5th Ed. I am surprised that you didn't have a hard hitting assault unit though... as I find that another one of 5th Eds best ways to massacre... Assault and run them down....

Did I say I was giving up on my beloved Iyanden? Never. Heresy! I just had to see what a fully meched out list could do. As for assault - the list was designed to hide and shoot the crap out of everything. I kept two flanks going and believe me not much survives ten DA, two WS with Scats, EMLs and Cannons and a squad of Dragons with a Prism to finish things off. Especiaaly when you dictate the terms of engagement. That is the point of mech, no?

I dunno. CC is still going to be rough between stuff that ignores armour and poisoned attacks that wound on 4+
I need to see the book first...

I would show it to you but I just got banned from a site for doing just that! CC will be impossible and we will definitely  need to revisit the concept of never dismounting unless you know you will survive. I'll still be fielding my WG regardless.

[Chaplain Swordwind]

We're presumably about halfway through 5th ed at this point, and as the newer books released after ours have been released, there's been a distinctive meta-shift for the Eldar army in general. Power has consolidated in fewer and fewer of the archetypal list builds, and it seems the dominate themes now are:

-Mechanized infantry focusing on guardians in serpents or avengers in falcons with a beatstick melee unit or two

-Wraithguard and fortune spam, backed up by monstrous creatures and a melee unit or two

-Seer councils backed up by fast-moving objective grabbers

What I'm curious about is this:
-To what extent do your own findings line up with what I have here, and is your own local meta any different?
-What sort of changes has your army list undergone from the start of 5th ed to the current state of affairs, post Space-Wolves?
-Have you had the opportunity to experiment with units or lists outside of the archetypes above, and to what degree of success?

Alright, now that I've had some time to think about the question you've posed, here's my response:

My local meta doesn't seem to have changed much since I played in a tournament at the LGC 13 months ago.  Its still dominated by Space Marines, with a few Chaos, Orks and Eldar mixed in, as well as the occasional Imperial Guard or Tau.  At the tournament I played in a few weeks ago, I even saw a Dark Eldar (Wych Cult) army.  Of the two OTHER Eldar players I know of, one fields a mechanized Ulthwe list (Seer Council), the other a MOSTLY mechanized list, but with a few dismounted elements mixed in.  As for myself, I didn't get the opportunity to play my Eldar in either tournament, so I cannot apply my own lists to the equation that describes my local Meta.

As for the evolution of my list(s) over the course of 5th Edition, oddly enough, my "tournament list" has come full circle.  It began as a hybrid list, evolved into a full mech list, and then continued to evolve into another hybrid list, but with a different composition.  I have had to modify the exact composition of the units I use, but not the overall type of list I field.

Thirdly, I have experimented extensively with a variety of lists, several of which do not fit into the archtypes that you described above.  However, most of my experimental lists were tested against the same opponent, rather than a large field of opponents, so the results are inconclusive.  I know that most of my lists can beat MEQ lists, and I'm confident that my list building abilities combined with my skill level as a player mean I can compete against most other armies, at least at the local level.  I'm not afraid of any list I face; for an opponent to beat me, he must either roll better than I do (which I cannot control), or else he must out-play me.

Not sure if that's exactly what you were looking for, but that's at least an initial response.

C.S.

[Neostrider]

The emphasis on CC is a pretty big problem, and the only solution I have in my lists for that are wraithlords and scorpions.

My problem with 5th edition is that the eldar, for having so many 'specialized' units are being outclassed by generic units like IG vets or SMs.  A power fist in a SM squad is as good as our Banshee units, our scorpions are getting slaughtered by ork boyz, etc.

I've included wraithlords and my opponents are having difficulty dealing with them because they're using anti-tank weapons (S8 - S9 ordnance) and failing to-wounds hurts.  Even if they do destroy it, its a 100 pt unit to absorb a lot of anti-tank shots, keeping my falcon and WS alive.

Overall, I just don't like the new mission types being used at tournaments.  The book's deployments and missions are boring, and we've had problems with almost all of them.  Dawn of War is so terrible it hurts, and is always worth asking if we should reroll.

[The Corsair]

People often mock me for this. I get over the troop survivability problem with guardian jetbikes. They are actually survivable. Yes they're expensive but like any eldar unit if they are played right they are worth it.

Using jetbikes completely eliminates the need for transports for guardians/avengers so I can put more points into warwalkers with starcannons because 12 starcannon shots mulches through anything short of a land raider. It also lets me take up 2 whole slots with super-awesome tank-busting fire prisms. If this isn't all good enough I still have my entire fast attack for vypers and warp spiders (warp spiders are ground based but I include them in mechdar because they can keep up)

It does end up being reasonably expensive but in all that I have my anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-medium infantry and close combat sorted (if I really have to) with spiders and possibly spears.

Stop doubting jetbikes in 5th ed and start using them to rush out and grab objectives while sitting in a bit of cover in case your toughness of 4 and 3+ save isn't good enough. They get into and out of cover no sweat. Come on, to kill one by landing in a building you have to roll a 1, then a 1 again.

[Lazarus]

Posted by: Neostrider

The emphasis on CC is a pretty big problem, and the only solution I have in my lists for that are wraithlords and scorpions.

Don't think those will stop the nids now with their new book.



Posted by: bebe

I would show it to you but I just got banned from a site for doing just that! CC will be impossible and we will definitely  need to revisit the concept of never dismounting unless you know you will survive. I'll still be fielding my WG regardless.

I'll have it soon. I don't have to "revisit" the concept of not getting out. That's already where I was before I stopped playing in events. 


Posted by: The Corsair

People often mock me for this. I get over the troop survivability problem with guardian jetbikes. They are actually survivable. Yes they're expensive but like any eldar unit if they are played right they are worth it.
Using jetbikes completely eliminates the need for transports for guardians/avengers so I can put more points into warwalkers with starcannons because 12 starcannon shots mulches through anything short of a land raider.

I'm not mocking you when I say that Guardian jetbikes are not "survivable" and do not hold objectives well unless you go 2nd and know when the last turn is. How you propose that they are survivable against stuff like the new Nids leaves me wondering. Tranports are not just for transporting units around. They are for protecting them from anti-infantry fire and great for "catching" an assault and bunching them up for the counter charge / attack.

They get into and out of cover no sweat. Come on, to kill one by landing in a building you have to roll a 1, then a 1 again.

Why do you have to roll two 1's? Dangerous terrain kills on a 1' bypassing saves. If you start, or end your move in difficult terrain you take that test. So you'll take it going in, and going out of the building. Also, by "building" I'm likely assuming you mean ruins?

[Gutstikk]

Tranports are not just for transporting units around. They are for protecting them from anti-infantry fire and great for "catching" an assault and bunching them up for the counter charge / attack.

This. I play hybrid because it gives me a chance to move non-troops to the front while keeping boots on the ground, and then saving my troops when the enemy lines come too close.

My argument is that often transports can inhibit your ability to impact the enemy army. Our waveserpent is, no doubt about it, a transport before it is anything else. We pay a premium for the "luxury" of being able to use it as a gunship but because it is so easy to silence a tank from shooting, this is generally not a worthwhile application unless points permit spamming them to a ridiculous agree [and then, quite often, removing the ones carrying infantry allow the enemy to ignore the others which will not be stocked with as heavy a threat as they might otherwise be able to carry].

The mech build is powerful [and probably most powerful] because it allows one to preserve the scoring status of the unit longer than would otherwise be possible, and takes certain threats to the unit away entirely. Other forms of scoring resilience are generally harder to come by in an Eldar army, and this enables opponents to force you to fight on their terms. As an army that has to dictate the flow of the battle to survive, we are given strong incentives to avoid letting our fragile elements come to harm at all.

[Prophecy]

I didn't realize that Jetbikes were frowned upon nowadays. I loved reading Mocs Hann armies and I actually bought a wind rider host box because of him. I dislike Vypers extremely in this new book but I still want to make one of his butter units of 4 norms 2 w/ cannons and 1 warlock with embolden. I also wanted to make a Farseer on a bike but I am currently teaching in Korea and have now realized that they aren't exactly famed for 40k. I hate serpents with a passion as they are just not worth the points IMHO. So I think my next list when I get back will be the above mentioned units with an added WG unit, 2 WL's, Eldrad, some guardians, scorpions, and perhaps some warpsiders. Not sure how it will play or how many points it will be but I just hate looking at these posts and being reminded that councils and WS are basically the way to win for most. I shun both units and yet I win with troop spamming.

[Lazarus]

I just hate looking at these posts and being reminded that councils and WS are basically the way to win for most.

My perspective comes from competitive play. Casual games opens up alot more of the codex - especially if the other guy is looking at the game the same way. The problem comes when you are playing in casual mode and the other guy is using the competitive stuff from a 5th edition codex.