Topic: wraithlords, whats the big deal?

[bored1]

Galderon:  I'm not sure I'm the same person you mean...

Vistanden:  I still disagree with your statements.  You can't compare apples and oranges.  Pick a metic, and measure against it.  

But since you want to choose reapers.  A reaper squad w/ exarch w/ missle launcher and fast shot.  Quite common, and the only way I field reapers.  The exarch can in one turn destroy the dread.  He simply can't do this against the wraithlord.  It will never happen.  With the rest of his squad to help, he may take one down however.  

Railguns.  Railguns take down a dread in one turn a good chunk of the time.  Again, more firepower is needed to kill a wraithlord.

Pick a weapon, measure against it.  If you want to compare armies, then compare lascannons to brighlances.  Each has the same chance of doing damage to their respective target(4+), but one can be one-shot one kill, while the other requires multiple shots.

As for the dread carrying more firepower...i couldn't disagree more.  The wraithlord WILL fire any turn that it doesn't die.  The dread, if it gets hit and damaged, can't fire, even with any extra options it gets.  And any weapon a dread can get can be equalled by the wraithlord, short of mounting 2 heavy weapons on the dread.  Plus, taking an option like smoke means your dread isn't firing for a turn.

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

Well, let's compare the Wraithlord to the other Toughness-based Dreadnought equivalent: The Carnifex.

Advantages of...

The Carnifex:
-More options; perhaps the most useful being Extended Carapace.
-2d6 Penetration dice in close combat
-Higher Strength ranged weapons
-1 more Wound
-5 points cheaper
-Implant Attack is good if you match up against a Wraithlord, but against other things, auto-kill usually makes it redundant.

The Wraithlord
-Higher WS (+1) , BS (+2), S (+1), T (+2), I (+3), and A (+1) (Carnifex could take Scything Talons, but would bring cost over 75. Other upgrades would similarily increase cost)
-More ranged weapons, with better AP, accuracy, # fired and range
-No Shoot the Big Ones
-A Starcannon against a Carnifex is far more effective than a Venom Cannon against a Wraithlord.

Personally, I'd rather have the Wraithlord. I think the Carnifex is just as essential to the Tyranids as the Wraithlord is to the Eldar.

Rending Claws vs. Wraithlord: A Genestealer's attack will wound 1/9 times against a Wraithlord. Discounting morale and chargin bonuses, the break-even point is:

2 x 1/9 Genestealers per 1.25 Wraithlords x (3 - 2 x 1/9 Genestealers) / 3

Plugging in 1 Wraithlord we end up with 3.97 Genestealers per Wraithlord. This is 63-64 points. From this, it may appear that the Wraithlord is at a disadvantage. However, this only covers the melee aspect.

With its twin Flamers, and at 75 points, do you think a Wraithlord, on average, will be able to take out even ONE Genestealer before they get into melee? I think so; with its auto-hit and penetration, a Genestealer under each template would generate 1 kill on average. 3.97 + 1 dead Genestealer is 79-80 points, more than the Wraithlord.

Now, moving onto the heavy weapons, which Wraithlords MUST take now:
A Shuriken Cannon costs another 25 points. Do you think it can kill two Genestealers (32 points)?
If a Shuriken Cannon can do it, so can a Scatter Laser.
There is no reason to take a Bright Lance against Tyranids, unless you are crazy about that auto-kill. Even if you do, you'll most likely be able to slay three before they get to you.
The Starcannon, with its longer range, will be able to take another one down over the Shuriken Cannon.
The EML... a Plasma missile at its range will easily slay four Genestealers.

As for the Genestealers' upgrades... sure, Implant Attack will be useful against a Wraithlord, but it reduces the number of Genestealers, and it won't save them from the Wraithlord's guns. Plus, it really isn't that good against anything else. In any case, with it, the break even point is:

2 x 1/9 x 2 Genestealers per 1.25 Wraithlords x (3 - 2 x 1/9 x 2 Genestealers) / 3

Or 1.99 Genestealers. This is nearly 40 points, meaning that two Genestealer kills from flamers will make it even.

All things considered, the Genestealer is just about the ideal thing to take against a Wraithlord. If they only deliver this kind of performance against a Wraithlord, then I think something needs to be changed slightly.

[FrOzEn jAcKaL]

Here's my say in this;

SHUT UP!!!

Wraithlords are not exactly GODS... okay? Kill the C'tan and call em cheese if you can find a tactical solution to it... Snipers (Space Marine troop choice), or a good round of Lascannon fire will cut it down in seconds! You just complain because you can't kill it instantly... thus said, how is it possible to have a puny sniper rifle wound a 25+ ft tall dreadnought, with no emotions, no pain, NO WEAK POINTS!!! How is it a single bullet can wound such a thing that is a completely solid {Wraithbone} structure? I don't see it... Wraithbone is thae same stuff the rune armor is made from, yet the lord doesn't have a invulnerable save... don't whine, it could be worse!!!!!!!!!!! Look at you Dreadnought... almost the same thing, except for the armor and fact that it has access to BETTER heavy weapons... also, if its so cheesey, why does it take a heavy choice, when the freakin dreadnought takes only an Elite? Leaving your heavy to fill with Land Raiders and Whirlwinds...

Cheese? Think again!

[FarseerAsgaard]

i wish my wraithlords performed the way you think they do..... bored whatever? lascannons do NOT bounce off of wraithlords. you only have a slightly less chance of wounding, and he still doesnt get his save. what about krak missiles? plasma cannons? when i play against Imperial opponents im lucky if my wraithlord survives turn one.

[FrOzEn jAcKaL]

You are very correct... good point, low AP weapons like Plamsa guns, etc. will almost always get the wound... if you can manage to roll well for the wound-roll.

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

From the 'nid perspective:

First, you can have THREE Wraithlords for the cost of ONE C'Tan. Additionally, Eldar don't have that Phase Out stuff.

Second, we don't have Lascannons. We have the Venom Cannon, but it's quite expensive. A Warrior with it, Enhanced Senses, and Toxin Sacs will cost 41 points. It will take 9 turns of shooting for 3 Warriors thus armed to kill a Wraithlord. Or, we can take a Tyrant with a Venom Cannon. With similar biomorphs, a 134 point Tyrant will take nine turns. A 119 point Carnifex will take about nine turns as well. Warp Blast... well, with only one shot and a short range, coupled with the Tyranid accuracy *cough*, it ain't doing much. Even a Zoanthrope with Warp Blast costs 59 points. We don't have sniper rifles. Poison Spore Mines are inaccurate, and you'll need 6 hits to cause a SINGLE wound. Fluff doesn't apply to rules that much; the main thing is game balance. As for melee, Genestealers won't cut it (see my last post). Everything else similar is ineffective, the Tyrant needs a 6 to wound, so that leaves just the 'fex. And it ain't that great either. Its I, WS, S, and T are lower.

[CecilRhodes]

        Helle, first of all I am both a SM player and an Eldar player, among other things. Thus I can bravely state that this SM player does not think the WraithLord is cheap or cheesey in any way.
        In one or two turns it can be reduced to a smoldering pile of wraithbone by a devastator squad or landraider/predator annihiliator. What Space Marine player can justly state that they cant kill it with such an abbundance of lascannons?
        On the other side of the fence, a Wraithlord is very uselfull, in shooting as well as close combat. Use it correctly and it will soak up fire directing it away from a crucial point in your advancing line. Against IG, who I play alot, this is very usefull as their tanks tend to focus on the Lord and their ordance markers arnt targeting my Gaurdians right away. If one thinks the Wraithlord needs a better save against rockets and the like take a Harlie Lord in a detachment...  

[bored1]

I've NEVER had a problem w/ my wraithlord performing well.  It doesn't have to make back its points, because they are so negligible.  All it has to do is draw enough fire that other units can more than make up their own.

And once again, it isn't an issue of one wraithlord really.  The problem is 2 or 3.  For the points cost, you can easily fit 3 wraithlords in under 400 pts.  If you don't take the higher end heavy weapons, you could probably fit it right at about 300 pts.  And for less than 500, you can add in an Avatar as well.  The remaining 500 pts buys quite a few guardians w/ heavy weapons.  

One way or another, it has to be toned back.  Whether that entails a point increase(probable) or limiting its numbers doesn't matter.  I do agree that its toughness shouldn't be lowered.  

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

I second that... personally, I'd lean toward a point increase. With that, I could care less about numbers or lowering Toughness. In fact, I wouldn't like the Toughness being lowered; it's part of the flavor of the Wraithlord. However, you should get what you pay for, and no more.

[Jericho]

Are Wraithlords really that good?

I have never used one.

They always seemed way to slow for an assault unit in an Eldar army.

Can't see what all the fuss is about.

If you want to kill them enough then they will die.

[Zealot]

I will TELL you the secret to taking making wraithlords compleately useless and incredibly annoying for the eldar playing involved....

listen closely,

32 Termagaunts in hive mind range

nothing else is reqired to negate a wraitlord for an entire game

whilst the rest of your army quite happilly butchers whatever else the eldar throw at your cute likkle swarms and before anyone starts telling me all the wonderfull specialised units that eldar can throw at 'nids i will tell you just one or two words... Mutable Genus, 'nids can specialise to kill you too! :D:D:D:D

now hasn't that just really made your days?  (hides his Biel-Tan army behind something)...

Zea

[XiQter]

First of all, Wraithlords are propubly the most overestimated unit in 40k.

I personally have never used more than 2 wraithlords and that was in a 2.5k fight.

But what about dcanons

150pts and u get a guess 24" S9 ap2 with multiplie barreges.

with a warlock added with coneal u get 7wounds with a +5 cover save.
According to me that is one of the fattest things an eldar army can have.

Often my wraithlord gets blows to pieces just before the fun begins (when i can fire with both my flamers and my starcannon, and charge after that).. thats when my wraithlord normaly dies.. my opponent isnt laughing cause intead he have to face the avatar who footslugged with my wraithlord 2*10 h-banshees rushing out from a wave sephrent´s and a hail fire..

He simply laid down all his fire power trying to kill the wraithlord witch he freard more than the rest of my army.. why bother a wraith lord when thes such a low chance of killing it.. instead take out the rest of the army.. when u have decimated the rest of the army concentrate on the frethcing w-lord and hopefully kill it!!

By the way, my mark of the wulfen with p-fist  ate 2 wraithlord´s... though that I can only blame on the bionics.. He killed the first one gaining 6 attack when charging.. my bloodcalw squad is getting badly beaten by the 2 lords, well my wolfen hits on a 3+ and makes 4w´s belive it or not 3 OF THEM FAILS!! guess if the eldar player cursed me   .. the 1st lord falls after killing another bloodclaw. the secons one kills the mark of the wulfen and another bloodclaws in the eldar turn, the next turn i loose anther bloodclaw, during the eldar turn the bloodclaw squad is exterminated and the lord consolidates, i roll a 6 and thows blessing at god for it!!
Charges the wraithlord after shoting away one w with my plasma pistol, gaining 4 attacks the shooked eldar players rolls snake eyes with his dices, no trying to choke himself watches me make 2 more wounds, and the lord dies failing 2 armorsaves again!!

so you see the lords arent invurneble.. the mark of the wulfen costed around 100pts and the lords over 200pts
I lost my 160pts bloodclawsquad but still earned 40 vps

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

I will TELL you the secret to taking making wraithlords compleately useless and incredibly annoying for the eldar playing involved....

listen closely,

32 Termagaunts in hive mind range

nothing else is reqired to negate a wraitlord for an entire game

whilst the rest of your army quite happilly butchers whatever else the eldar throw at your cute likkle swarms and before anyone starts telling me all the wonderfull specialised units that eldar can throw at 'nids i will tell you just one or two words... Mutable Genus, 'nids can specialise to kill you too! :D:D:D:D

now hasn't that just really made your days?  (hides his Biel-Tan army behind something)...

Zea

Umm... 32 Termagaunts cost AT LEAST 160 points, making them a poor choice. Using 160 points to tie up 120? Uh, no.

[FarseerAsgaard]

reply to hive custodian second to last post (about nids having problems taking out WLs)

how can a 'fex NOT kill a wraithlord? ITS GOT STRENGTH TEN!!! WS isnt a factor, and IT IGNORES SAVES! i dont know what kind of screwed up carnifex you're using, but the ones i've seen cut a swathe of destruction through almost any army....Besides, throw a unit of stealers at the WL and that thing is gone. you'll roll enough sixes to take it out in one or two turns, during which the WL will probably take out two stealers each turn. Wraithlords dont always have to be shot.....

[bored1]

why is everyone throwing out solutions for a wraithlord assuming that the eldar player is an idiot??

1.  Wraithlord vs Carni:  Both are s10.  They both get the same attacks given correct bioweapon choices on the carni.  Both have WS4.  The difference in I.  Wraithlord is faster, and could therefore kill the carni before the carni could strike back.  However, due to the extra wound, the carni would probably win.  Its worse for the carni if it isn't given the +1 attack upgrade.  

2.  Termagants.  One way to look at it is that your 32 termagants just tied up a wraithlord.  Or you could look at it that the wraithlord just tied up 32 termagants...

3.  Genestealers.  The cheapest unit(6 stealers) is 96 points.  If the eldar player has half a brain, he will be shooting them, considering tyranids can't screen their troops.

4.  Shooting the wraithlord.  It takes about 7 lascannon shots to kill a wraithlord with marines statistically IIRC.  That is probably most of your heavy anti-tank firepower that is going to one model, greatly increasing the chances of the wave serpents and falcons achieving their goals.  Which is fine.  Perfect.  Just slightly unbalanced for 100-125 pts.

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

reply to hive custodian second to last post (about nids having problems taking out WLs)

how can a 'fex NOT kill a wraithlord? ITS GOT STRENGTH TEN!!! WS isnt a factor, and IT IGNORES SAVES! i dont know what kind of screwed up carnifex you're using, but the ones i've seen cut a swathe of destruction through almost any army....Besides, throw a unit of stealers at the WL and that thing is gone. you'll roll enough sixes to take it out in one or two turns, during which the WL will probably take out two stealers each turn. Wraithlords dont always have to be shot.....

Read my first post about 'fexes and Genestealers. Then tell me that again.

[Volo]

The Wraithlord is the only thing that can take hits in an eldar army. Aspect warriors get creamed by heavy bolters. The toughness should not be lowered, because that would allow other armies to stand back and kill them with standard rifles. If they lower the Wraithlords toughness, then they should lower the front armor of the dreadnought to 10 so my suriken cats can pop it.

As far as taking 3 Wraithlords and an avatar in an army, personally, I like to give my opponent a chance (It makes the game more interesting). I never take more than 2 Wraithlords OR 1 Wraithlord and 1 Avatar AT MOST. Try to give your enemy at least a small chance. It's good to lose every once in a while. It keeps the game from getting dull.

[Russian Ninja]

The Wraithlord performs an important task in most armies, being a target. You guys have been spending all this time trying to figure out how to kill wraithlords. What about the rest of the elder army? While you're devestators and tanks are shooting the wraithlord, you're ignoring the wave serpant mounted Howling Banshees and other aspect warriors. Most Elder players know that when they take a Wraithlord, it's probably going to get shot to pieces. Also, most of these attempts involve one, two, three squads. All this to take out one wraithlord. And don't bother trying to calculate %. What's the probability of a single fire dragon taking out a necron monolith? You'll need 3 6s. Yet it's possible (and actually happened. Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you).

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

I will not deny that the Wraithlord is a target. While this is partially due to the fact that it looks cool, there are other reasons, such as it has BS4 with a Heavy Weapon, has Strength 10, ignores armor, and stuff like that. Its attack capability makes it a target, and its resilience makes it resistant to being a target. The Wraithlord is not a Monolith. Eldar don't have Phase Out, so we cannot afford to ignore the Wraithlord like we can a C'tan or Monolith. Either we devote an unhealthy amount of firepower into the Wraithlord, or get hurt by it. If I were playing against Wraithlords, I would hit them last, because it's simply not worth it to hit such a tough target. Am I going to spend six turns trying to kill it with Venom Cannons, or am I going to pick a different target? Just because I shouldn't shoot at it doesn't mean it's balanced.

As for the percentages: just because something isn't invincible doesn't mean it isn't unbalanced. Would you RELY on a single Fire Dragon to kill a Monolith? If the Monolith only cost 100 points, would it be fair? A Wraithlord can easily defeat anything in the Tyranid codex except Carnifexes, and only if the Carnifexes are SPECIALLY DESIGNED to kill Wraithlords, and even then, only if I can stay in cover so your Starcannon doesn't shoot me to pieces by the . A Wraithlord is basically filler material, able to meet or beat just about everything that's thrown at it. You just stick three in, and make the normal Aspect choices, and you're set.

Why do I use mathematics? Because they are the only solid evidence. Without it, the Eldar would make their rhetorical arguments, and the others would make their equally rhetorical responces.

[FarseerAsgaard]

what you say is true. but nids always have had problems dealing with armor. even with 'fex venom cannons, they only get glancing hits on vehicles. gaunts bounce off of tough troops, like orks and marines. stealers are more than a match, but your opponent will be sure to take those down, just as he will with the carnifex. as an eldar player, your best bet against a wraithlord would be to smack it with spore mines, even though they are unreliable. stealers and warriors with rending claws can also take the beast down (dont count on the carnifex making it into HTH). on more than one occasion ive used wraithlords to plug holes (holes=gaunts) but then again that combat blocks LOS, letting beefier bugs move up behind it. i'll not argue that wraithlords are not tough opponents. but they are the only things in an eldar army that can take punishment and not shatter. as for taking two or three, the eldar player is shortchanging himself. taking these prevents him from taking dark reapers, another big nid killer, and falcons. also, they get expensive. WLs MUST take a heavy weapon, and taking a halfway decent one makes it more expensive than a falcon. in short, wraithlords are living dreads. you dont take down dreads with bolters or tiny claws.