Topic: Give it up for the Wailing Doom!!!! (Cheers in background)

[King Snake]

I play Chaos too, and my Greater Demons waste the Avatar every time. Make sure to put that down too.

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

C'mon people! 1,000+ members up on EO! We can do it! Maybe we can get an Avatar that can kick all the four Greater Demons' tails--at the same time! Okay, maybe not, but we can try! Slaanesh had better watch out!

[StevenSwayze]

OK there is one more way to look at this. My Ork warboss costs 60pts, I give him a power claw, cybork body(for the 5+ inv) a slugga and an Iron gob for a 101pt warboss the 80pt(?) avatar will kick my warbosse but every single friggin time, well almost if I charge you I got a chance but any other and it's goodnight gracie. I know you want to compare it to the greater demons or gods or just God himself but just petition knowing that you get your points worth right now and are just asking for more. Most of you have conceded that you would be willing to double his points but it would not be enough. You all seem to want it MORE powerfull than a greater demon of Khorne at around the same points cost but Demons are A: in reserve, and B: potentially will kill a high cost character when summoned those are HUGE disadvantages. I've had games where I was able to eliminate his ability to summon his greater demon by the Top of turn 2! An avatar is not limited in such a way. If you wanted the Avatar to be that baddass you would need to make it the same cost of the Bloodthirster plus the average cost to a chaos army when it is summoned(that cost is very much figure into the points cost of a Demon) plus the cost of the Luxury  of not having to keep it in reserve AND then you would have to make some sort of consession(drawback) like "If the Avatar is chosen then the army may not take a pheonix lord" as a phoenis lord woulda been sacrificed to bring the Avatar or even better after the battle start randomly select a Pheonix lord/exarch to be sacrificed and you would have to field at least one exarch to be able to take an Avatar.
Also the Avatar would be stuck in the unit that the Exarch came from. Something along those lines would make sense.

[King Snake]

Well as per the summoning of Greater Demons, its like this:

If you are playing with a Greater Demon, you are probably playing 1 of the 4 Gods armies. Thus, you will most likely take advantage of the free upgrade to Aspiring Champions in most squads, making that sacrifice fairly low unless it takes your tooled out Chaos Lord. In a big battle though, it shouldn't.

But you do raise some good points Mr. Swayze, but I don't think every one wants it to be totally badass, just to be something that people can rely on to strike at least some fear into the opponent.

[StevenSwayze]

lol doesn't it cause fear? I kid, I know what you meant. I get the beef people have with it but I also see that most people don't understand they cost they will be getting it at. People can demand  all they want but be carefull what you wish for. Marneas Calgar sucks the big one and costs 200pts so imagine what tooled up Avatar would cost. Then what you would see is that the Avatar would be totally rare because it would be prohibitively expensive. I mean a supa powerful entity that moves 12" has 6 attacks t8 and immune to heat and does'nt start in reserve had better cost way more than a landraider or Marneas Calgar or maybe even both! So yeah it will rock and kill alot of stuff but would you rather field 40 defenders?  I think if the Avatar swing the way of the petition you will see it no more or no less than you see it used now, just it's rarity will be for totally different reasons.

[Cormer Lir]

As usual, you're twisting the truth here.  No one has asked to make the Avatar more powerful than a Bloodthirster, and no one has even set a reliable points cost.  Heck, I don't even know what a Bloodthirster runs these days.

And finally, no one has even mentioned the idea that they don't like the Avatar because he's either a.) inefficient, or b.) too uncommon.  They want an improved Avatar with the full knowledge that he'll be less common.  Heck, I WANT him to be less common.  I want Farseers to be less common.  I think that the idea of requiring your army to be led by either a.) a super rare master Psyker, or b.) the Incarnation of the God of War is a bit silly.   It's been that way for a long time, I confess, but with the de-emphasis of characters in 3rd Ed. I'd like to have a somewhat more "common" Eldar HQ choice.

[Jehenna]

the stats work like this, the avatar will do some wounds to the BT but ultimately the BT wins - by a more narrow margin than 60pts would suggest though, hence you should shoot the BT up before it reaches CC, note that the avatar does well against the other greater deamons in terms of points for wounds.

[odinblade]

Well, after the last 5 or so posts I have 1 new name.  Here's the list anyway:

odinblade
Quaran – Space Marines
Lord Calamir
plasmamonger
Warlock_Samus
King Snake - Chaos, Eldar
Salamando
Poueblo
vanquisherau
Niran of Asha An
The Hive Custodian - Tyranids
Asurmen_
Farseer_Nimliiost
Moogoo_the_Great
PaPaNaRf
Cormer Lir
Purple Raine
Aulan C’nesha
Culeagh
Athaga Mor
Lanorel
Squirrel on Polymorphine
Midnight Stalker
dark_wind

If you are on this list and play another army than Eldar, by all means do tell me.  I believe this will have more force with GW.  24 now people, 24.  Spread the word in other forums, link to this, whatever.  We need a decent God.

[odinblade]

Just wondering to ALL YOU PEOPLE THAT AREN'T SIGNING UP:

Why are there [size=9]230+ views[/size] and only [size=9]24 people signed up?[/size]  Sign up now!

Thanks to those that have signed,
odinblade

[SteamingBarrel]

put me up for the petition! Also why the F*** do termies have 5+ invulnerable saves now? They're about as thick as an avatar leg! If there going to have 2+ and 5+ invulnerable the avatar should have a 2+ 4+ save at least!

[Lord Calamir]

put me up for the petition! Also why the F*** do termies have 5+ invulnerable saves now? They're about as thick as an avatar leg! If there going to have 2+ and 5+ invulnerable the avatar should have a 2+ 4+ save at least!

Which is, by the way, just what he had back in 2nd Edition...

[Wraithboss]

The fix:

- 200 points
- can only be taken in a 2000 pt+ game
- 5 attacks
- 5 Wounds
- 4+ save
- 12" charge
- If Avatar is killed, all (friendly) Eldar units w/LOS, regardless of distance, take an immediate break test at  -1 leadership.

Put me on the list.

`Boss!

[odinblade]

That sounds pretty good.  You're also added to the list.  Thanks.  I'm keeping a list of suggestions along with the petition to show that we've actually thought about it.  I like that LOS thing, that's good.

[Farseer_Nimliiost]

i agree that sounds more like an avatar

[Farseer Khylodarei]

Because, I agree with Mr. Swayze, there really isn't that much wrong with the avatar.  Sure we can argue all day about fluff this and fragment of a god that.  But we all know this isn't true, there are plenty of references of fluff and the game not matching.  C'mon people.

Lets look at Space Marines, there are supposed to be 1000 a chapter.  How many games have you played against the same marine player, and how many marines have you fragged?  Seems to me all the marines in the universe shoulda been wiped out by now, but nope, they're still there at 15 pts a piece.

Second, How the hell do you make a chaos marine?  How many do you think have survived since the Horus Heresy?  If they are all grizzled veterans, they'd all be DEAD by now.  But nope, they're still here too.

And as for farseers being rare, ever stop to think that perhaps their are more than one farseer per craftworld?  A small Warhost is led by a younger (not saying much) Farseer.   The fact that he still has three wounds means the difference between the skill of farseers are the powers and wargear they carry.

comments?

[odinblade]

1st, when chaos dies it returns to the warp.  Second, i agree with the farseers thing but I do think weaker HQ choices would be good.  Third, space marines get reborn from the geneseeds.  But my overall point is:  Units generally agree with their fluff.  The avatar has been given incredible fluff but can be killed by mindless peons with little trouble.  I won't put you on the list, but I think you should look at what Wraithboss submitted and see how reasonable you think it is.  His idea sounds quite fair and would better represent what GW has created.

Keep'em coming, postive or negative, but preferably positive.  We're still at 25.

[Athaga Mor]

i really like wraithboss's idea - nice job!

[King Snake]

The only thing I don't like about the boss' idea is that it can only be used in 2000+ points. Sure, it may be fluffy, but I really wouldn't want the Avatar to be THAT rare. 1500 point minimum I think. But that break test is a great idea. It would make perfect sense too, as imagine the horror the Eldar would have at seeing their Avatar defeated in battle.

[Tuisich-Anastari]

i disagree.  the avatar SHOULD be restricted to 2000 points plus.  after all, they sacrifice an exarch to awaken the thing!!  they're not going to bring him out for every little skirmish they get into.  i don't use the avatar, but i think that the newest edition of the wailing doom is pretty sad.  you can put me on the list, odinblade.  

[StevenSwayze]

Earlier I posted an exaggerated version of what I thought you guys wanted the Avatar to be and rightfully so was critisized for the exaggeration. But not 5 posts late Wraithboss posts a versions that is not only worse than my exaggeration but less expensive. Ok so what if there was a young phoenix lord who could lead the Eldar into battle? Not big enough to be a special character but bigger than an exarch?  I think that would be cool.

Wraithboss I hope you were joking about that avatar as I've always placed you as one of the somewhat level headed folks on the boards.