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Author Topic: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?  (Read 46120 times)

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Offline Straker

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #40 on: October 6, 2008, 10:06:47 PM »
For friendly games though a lot of the times I like draws, especially because it's definitely biased for Eldar with all our fast stuff :D Haha but seriously, in tournaments it's not really ok, as for an Eldar player to not be able to get a draw is hard (we just have so many skimmers and jetbikes, vypers etc) but for IG, etc it's hard to just pull the 24'' contesting trick. Random game length helps, but with star engines we can just switch tanks and objectives (up to 36'' movement let's you move damn far).

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #41 on: October 7, 2008, 12:09:41 AM »
Raven, massacres are far from pointless, even in soccer they they use the goals scored vs taken differences to see who gets what spot in case of a tie (very often) of tournament standing. Right now what i am hearing for tournaments, translated in soccer, would be like "you have to win with 3 goals difference, anything else is draw, if many contenders get draws and as such get an equal standing with many others, then oh well!"  VPs are still in the rules and for a GOOD reason, i don't care if GW tourneys don't implement the rules correctly, humans err and other humans correct them, that's how things go forward. BTW nothing personal, i just had it in and thanks for the opportunity to express myself ;D




Straker: Exactly!, we Eldar are the masters of denial, it would be totally freaking unfair in my mind to either draw that easily, or worse win without playing well at all! You guys remember the infamous trio falcon hatred, remember the main reason for it?
"Nigh indestructible vehicle that moves fast and furious gains VPs from objs while staying safe" Everyone was yelling an moaning, well in 5th its even more resilient, even more safe and can get into reserves at will. Now sorry i don't want to win games just because i did nothing all game and despite my opponent delivering massive damage on my force to still woopingly win just because i got the points with 1 avenger in one falcon and another in a serp and contested some with a couple of vypers. At this scenario, the poor guy has a full army, i am toasted and yet he still and to no avail sweats to turn this into a draw a draw that with the aforementioned tournament system will make me on equal par with him in the competition.

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Offline Straker

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #42 on: October 7, 2008, 01:45:37 AM »
Well, if I win with a tattered force, then good riddance because no army just wins by sitting there shooting and not claiming ground. The thing is if the objective is more important than the size of your army, then OK. I do like that just because you lost more men you still have a shot. That being said, GW (LIKE ALWAYS; GOD I HATE THEM) took it to an all too far extreme and messed up the gameplay. Seriously, at this point I'm just sick of them. There is no excuse for how long it takes them to release FAQs and certain codices (DE), especially considering how much money they make for this ridiculously overpriced game, and then when they finally do release them there are typos all over the place, amphetamine parrot is not playtested, and it is just plain unprofessional.

Please excuse the rant! 5th, which seemed great when I first started, is just getting more and more frustrating.

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #43 on: October 7, 2008, 02:36:31 AM »
Straker i totally understand your attitude towards the FAQ/codex creation. However there is nothing IMHO wrong with the current missions as long as we also add vps to help decide a winner. GW created missions that blended deployment with objectives and KPs so as to force people into hard selections on their lists. If you go all Mech you give more VPs usually and you get less objs. If you go all troops you rock on objs and loose in KPs etc.

But trouble comes when we do not implement the whole rule set, this is what is happening right now and it is not the rules that are wrong, it's just the whole BS mentality of "we are playing for fun only, let everyone get a draw!"
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #44 on: October 7, 2008, 05:34:14 AM »
The massacre system is in place to truly spepperate the players rankings especially in large events. Don't forget that there are other scores involved as well such as painting, sportsmanship & composistion. Draws suck for tournaments in general.

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Offline Red Avenger

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #45 on: October 7, 2008, 07:57:12 AM »
Quote from: Straker
Give us some good rules for them and it would help us get our cratworlds back!!! Just stinks my cool models have to be used generically.
I have no problems with this... I think lesser focus on SC would be a good thing.

Offline Straker

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #46 on: October 7, 2008, 10:51:53 AM »
SC? What's that?

Offline Defenestratus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #47 on: October 7, 2008, 11:06:56 AM »
Special Characters.

For some reason some people think that because they don't use them, nobody else should, and they want to make them less fun for the rest of us who enjoy playing with them.

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #48 on: October 7, 2008, 11:27:35 AM »
Yup. "special" characters are pretty much the norm in tournaments everywhere I go. New dexes are just full of them...

Lazarus.
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Offline Straker

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #49 on: October 7, 2008, 11:28:20 AM »
That's ridiculous! They add a whole new aspect to the game and they have awesome backgrounds and stories...read Eldrad's codex entry; it's the coolest damn thing!

Besides, our generic HQs kinda suck. I mean, farseers are great, but that's about it.

Offline Red Avenger

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #50 on: October 7, 2008, 11:53:28 AM »
Quote from: Defenestratus
For some reason some people think that because they don't use them, nobody else should, and they want to make them less fun for the rest of us who enjoy playing with them.
Those malicious people! :P

Quote from: Lazarus
Yup. "special" characters are pretty much the norm in tournaments everywhere I go.
True, but you are talking about official tournaments. Not some GW-forsaken-place with few dudes that like to play the game their way. ;)


Offline Killing Time

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #51 on: October 7, 2008, 11:56:46 AM »
They're very much a personal thing, and while I'd never penalise anyone else for using one (especially for such a no-brainer as Eldrad), the fact that I personally don't like to use one means that I'm voluntarily handicapping myself.
In fact in the case of the Eldar codex, I'm voluntarily crippling myself.

I like to be able to make up the back story and the combat gear. I want to customise and I don't want to have an off-the-shelf-character-of-uber-pwnage, even if I can paint him green and call him Zorg: Slayer of Small Rodents.
He's still frikin Eldrad and nothing I do will change that.

To be honest, as much as I like the Eldar codex. And I do, a lot.
I think they really dropped the ball on a few things, and TROOPS are not one of them.

Heavy weapons should have been diversified more than they were and the HQ units should have been more versatile. And Eldrad should be +50 pts, so you actually have to think about taking him.
The Autarch, while not as bad as some make out, really did need a better wargear selection (S4 power weapon alone would have been fine), and could have done with some sort of retinue option. (The One aspect troop squad idea would have been ideal)

And the heavy weapons should have been something like:
Scatter Laser: 36" S5 AP- Heavy 5
Shuricannon: 24" S6 AP4 Heavy 3
Starcannon: 36" S7 AP2 Heavy 2
Bright Lance: 36" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Lance
EML: As is
As it is, the BL and SC are way too expensive to be worth taking at all, while the shuricannon and scatter laser fill virtually the same role.
Since 5th ed blast rules have put the plasma cannon back on the shopping list of the imperials, the star cannon is now totally obsolete.
Meanwhile, the BL is about as scary to tanks now as a few harsh words, since even if it gets past the cover save, the new damage charts are pretty ineffective for AP2+ unless you can afford to spam the shots.

Meh
[\ramble]

Dizzy

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #52 on: October 7, 2008, 01:34:48 PM »
That much is true here i agree, the Eldar heavy weapons are the most obsolete in the game, but that will not change for at least 3 years. BTW i like your changes Dizz, i concur!
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Offline Straker

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #53 on: October 7, 2008, 01:46:04 PM »
I agree, the points costs for all our heavy weapons are ridiculous. Either adjust the stats or he points...

Offline Irisado

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #54 on: October 7, 2008, 03:26:16 PM »
Tournament play is something I can't discuss, but in standard games, I disagree with any notion of Special Characters being the be all and end all of Eldar HQ choices.  If you want to rely on them, then it's up to you as an individual, but it really isn't necessary, as the Farseer, Avatar, and Autarch can all perform very well, providing you use them correctly.

What's more seeing Eldrad turn up in just about everybody's Eldar army just because it doesn't say that he can't is very tiresome in my opinion.  It demonstrates a lack of imagination, and causes all sorts of background conflict issues.  Of course, if you don't care about background at all, then this won't worry you, but I feel that players who dismiss background are missing out on the most enriching part of the game.  What's the point in having a history to an army if you don't take any notice of it?

I think some of the best fifth edition armies I have seen posted on various forums have revolved around standard HQ choices.  The Farseer can be devastating if you use his/her powers on the right unit(s) at the right time, while the Avatar is very tough for an opponent to stop if you support him correctly.  The Autarch is much harder to get the best out of, but it can be done, so all this talk of Special Characters are the only decent Eldar HQs in fifth edition seems somewhat misplaced to me.
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #55 on: October 7, 2008, 03:33:10 PM »
Posted by: Irisado

Quote
Tournament play is something I can't discuss

Quote
all this talk of Special Characters are the only decent Eldar HQs in fifth edition seems somewhat misplaced to me.

Whn it comes to competitive play (tournaments etc.) that it exactly the case.  :)

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Offline Irisado

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #56 on: October 7, 2008, 03:36:46 PM »
I'm happy that I don't play in tournaments then  :).

The whole concept of winning at all costs, and throwing everything else out of the window is the very antithesis of that which wargaming should be about in my opinion.
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Offline Defenestratus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #57 on: October 7, 2008, 03:36:58 PM »
Quote
What's more seeing Eldrad turn up in just about everybody's Eldar army just because it doesn't say that he can't is very tiresome in my opinion.  It demonstrates a lack of imagination, and causes all sorts of background conflict issues.

You can't argue about his cost effectiveness.  In psychic ability alone, he's 150% as effective as a regular farseer and only ~5% more expensive.

Lets not mention the other "perks" you get when you get him.

As for background.... who the hell is to say that Eldrad and Yriel NEVER saw each other or NEVER fought alongside one another EVER?!?  You can make up your own fluff within the background framework that GW has bestowed upon us.


Quote
The whole concept of winning at all costs, and throwing everything else out of the window is the very antithesis of that which wargaming should be about in my opinion.
And getting your ass handed to you everytime you play because you wont live up to the arms-race-tactics of your club-mates IS what its all about? 

Sure you don't have to win to have fun, but never winning is never fun.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2008, 03:39:58 PM by Defenestratus »

Offline Irisado

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #58 on: October 7, 2008, 03:45:39 PM »
Personally, I don't feel he's that cost effective, since I never feel the need to cast the same power more than once.  I find taking Special Characters too limiting, as they take away vital points that I need to spend on the rest of my army.  For fifth edition, I think spending points on squads is much more important.  My regular Farseer with Doom, Fortune and Spirit Stones is much cheaper than Eldrad, has a much more interesting story to her life (which you can all read, should you wish to, when I post my Craftworld background), and does everything that I need her to do on the field of battle.  I appreciate that a lot of this maybe irrelevant for tournaments, so I'm only talking about regular games here.

As for the background, I don't quite know how Yriel got into this discussion, but I never argued that Special Character should never be fielded, or should never appear together.  It's highly likely that they could in Apocalypse games or in narrative campaigns, but would they appear all the time, in a regular Eldar army, in a standard game of 2000 points or fewer?  My answer is no, not unless it's part of narrative campaign or a specialist scenario.  As I say though, for those who are not interested in background these sorts of issues don't matter.

As for your last comment, I assure you I've won games with my Eldar, and I haven't needed Special Characters to help me out.  It is more challenging to win with the Eldar in fifth edition though, but as I said in an earlier post, I believe that this has more to do with the missions than it does the Eldar Codex and its HQ options.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2008, 03:48:29 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Lazarus

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Re: Was the Eldar codex made for 5th edition?
« Reply #59 on: October 7, 2008, 03:50:55 PM »
Posted by: Irisado

They aren't for eveyone I suppose.

Quote
The whole concept of winning at all costs, and throwing everything else out of the window is the very antithesis of that which wargaming should be about in my opinion.

Um....WAR is a win at all costs if you are playing it right. Beat the other guy as he is asuredly trying to beat you. My lists are built to try and keep up with the other lists...


Posted by: Defenestratus

Quote
You can't argue about his cost effectiveness.  In psychic ability alone, he's 150% as effective as a regular farseer and only ~5% more expensive.
Lets not mention the other "perks" you get when you get him.

Agreed. I'm sure however, that we will see lots of special characters being fielded in the new marine codex.

Quote
As for background.... who the hell is to say that Eldrad and Yriel NEVER saw each other or NEVER fought alongside one another EVER?!?  You can make up your own fluff within the background framework that GW has bestowed upon us.

I play Eldrad (when I use him) in my ULTHWE list. Yriel (when I use him) is converted so as to not be standing on a dead Tyranid arm and is not painted in Iyanden colours (pics on the forum). He is being fielded during his days as a "corsair" if you will. Or you can call him "bob" the highest Autarch of Ulthwe - whichever you prefer but either way he's coming across the table at you.  ;)

Gw crapped all over fluff - chaos codex should tell you that much. (lol)

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