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Offline Ashul

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2003, 06:55:14 AM »
This is a great concept you guys have got going here! I'd like to incorperate your craftworld into the Ashul-Bekaur's craftworld fluff. I'm not sure how to go about that, but I'll work on it. Anyway, great job!

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Offline InquisitorOthello

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2003, 04:13:38 PM »
I had a flash in the pan idea I bet you'll all hate:

CWEO should be the daemon hunters of Eldar!  Think about it, what common enemy do all eldar have: CHAOS.  It's the one reason they'd really want to join forces, specifically slaanesh.  Enact the following special rules:

1> Any non-chaos army faced with the CWEO may take slaaneshi daemons, up to 10(20?)% of their army points value.

2> CWEO Eldar HATE Slaanesh units and MUST charge them if in range, and get +2 atacks on the initial charge to any Slaaneshi unit.  Conversely, Eldar fear for their souls and suffer a -1 to any LD checks if they lose CC.  This set of rules does not apply to harlequins, as their souls are protected by the laughing god.
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2003, 04:17:40 PM »
No. At least, not the regular army. Although all Eldar hate and fear the Great Enemy, the point of CWEO is face ALL external threats, to better the race's chances in the Last Battle.

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Offline Ravenwing

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2003, 04:31:55 PM »
One thing - in the scorpions story, the exarch is referred to as both male and female if I read it correctly...

Offline Iolar

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2003, 06:54:10 PM »
Thanks for your great comments and support everyone.

I am not very good at game mechanics, so no help there, but as a fluff-mavin, artist and historian who has been working on the project, I can tell you there have been hundreds of posts arguing/discussing the logic of having 4 (or more) groups of opposed Eldar living and fighing side-by-side.

There's no way to boil it down to a simple fluffy answer. Think of the forces that can conspire to bring these groups together: survival, a common enemy, a common ancester, a larger plan, competition, and a chance to prove to yourself that your race (be it CWE,DE,ExE,Outcast,Harlequin) is better, truer, stronger, faster or smarter. And remember that all Eldar have traits in common - selfishness, arrogance, manipulation.  On top of that, CWEO is a long-standing community, like E.O., and like E.O. those who aren't happy or threaten the group move on or are moved on. With all that going for it, there is not peace or full trust within the CW itself.

Farseers do not rule the CW's actions. DE do not dine on the infinity circuit. But they would still like to, in accordance with their nature. Proud and Evil do not equate to stupid, if each sees an advantage in  cooperation.

DE and ExE do not go running hand-in-hand down the hallway. JainZar and Lileath Hesperax will not be braiding each others hair in an all night hen-party. It's still the dark future of the 40th Millenia.

Yet through it all, CWEO must remain carefull balanced on the fence so as not to alienate (pun intended) other
Craftworlds and Kabals.  And elusive enough to keep it's plans and secrets, and it DOES have plans and secrets.


Sorry to have rattled on for so long. The CWEO fluff that has so far been presented is a little thin on hard facts numbers and  and timelines (just like GW!). But it's calculated, manipulating vagueness, like good Eldar fluff should be.

 - I

P.S. Sorry I can't post a long post on the mechanics of game balance, but it's not really my forte. :)

Offline Purple Raine

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2003, 11:27:04 PM »
Very well put Iolar.

As Iolar had said, we've had many disputes as to how it's possible that all these races could work together as there is so much hatred between them already... but as she said, there are plenty of reasons why we would work together and we should definitely build on those.

That said, we definitely appreciate users playing devil's advocate because we do want our fluff and army to stand strong and fit in with all the other official fluff.

So, what I say is, bring on the criticism, discuss it together and let's build upon a strong fluff for everything.

Regarding fielding the CWEO army, we have not built on that too much yet, and we're hoping that the many members of our community can put more input into this.  

It's good to see such fruitful discussions already, let's keep the ball rolling!
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Offline deDoc

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2003, 11:53:36 PM »
Very well put Iolar.

As Iolar had said, we've had many disputes as to how it's possible that all these races could work together as there is so much hatred between them already... but as she said, there are plenty of reasons why we would work together and we should definitely build on those. ...


Hmmmm.

One source of... coordination, if not quite cooperation... could be the Harlequins.  GW-official fluff already strongly suggests that they are the one group of Eldar that readily move among the three peoples.  These hints mesh nicely with the fluff we see already on the CWEO site, and Iolar's provocative statement that "Farseers do not rule the CW".

No, the Harlequins are not ON the Council... but they are accorded the most profound of respect BY the Council, and I would expect their actions to be subtler, as befits a kindred who can manipulate the emotions and minds of other Eldar.

What might this mean in army list terms?

If one is playing in a group or tournament that will allow Fanatic-sanctioned "official experiments", a Harlequin unit could become a HQ choice for a CWEO army.

If one is putting together a "proxy force" for a Rogue Trader tournament, an intriguing possibility would be to use the Seer Council craftworld force.... using Harlies to "proxy" the Seers and Mimes.  Use the standard Seer Council rules to arm the HQ unit; the use of "destructor" would mimic the plasma pistols Harlies have access to, Witchblades to mimic the H2H abilities of a troupe, with Guide and Fortune to mimic the dathedi effect on the unit.

As CWEO forces hold the Harlies in high esteem, the two complusory troop choices could be explained, not as elite units, but as being inspired to greater heights of the Path by the presence of the Harlies.

Sprinkle DE and ExE figures among the other units, using them as proxies for conventional CW units in the army list.

I might actually sit down and try and write a list for this--would such a list be best written here, or placed in the Army Lists section?

Offline The Hive Custodian (Retired)

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2003, 11:55:51 PM »
What about us non-Eldar "riff-raff"? Are we in, or out? (Though it would be impossible to include us rules- or armies- wise...)
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Offline Malika

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2003, 01:14:25 PM »
I may sound like an impatient and spoiled prick here, but eh I WANNA SEE MORE STUFF!!! I love the scorpions, the fluff and the artwork so far, but I really wanna see some more stuff...

Offline Iolar

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2003, 05:08:41 PM »
Oh, yes Harlequins. Mmmmmm.
H a r l e q u i n s.

I like harlequins.

Unfortunately, putting the stuff together is slow, the coders have to wait on the artists and writers, who are discussing with the historians, who are discussing with the army-mechanics guys, and occasionally key people get caught up in real life etc etc.

But, like anything good, it's worth waiting for. If you have suggestions, now that a bit of CWEO is up, post them in the appropriate forums, noting that it's a CWEO suggestion.


Offline ~Fallen~Sun~

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2003, 02:31:08 AM »
I would like to start by saying that I like the idea very much and I applaude the EO staff for having a good idea and the imagination and creativity to try making it work.

The question has been raised as to how the armies would work together and why they would in the first place. Well, I actually have a thought to share on that. ALL Eldar, remember a time before the Fall when they were the true Masters of the Universe. (no relation to He-man) A time when the race as a whole was strong, the culture was rich (not monetarily) and their actions had great meaning beyond that of mere survival, which is the case now. Even people wrapped up in their own schemes and plots will long for a time when things were better, and no matter how twisted they are, they will strive in some way to better themselves even if their perspective and means to an end is slightly warped.
People have talked about the arrogence, selfishness and twisted depravity of the different races, which is what was the races near destruction. None of those things equate to stupidity though, although they may be contributing factors at times.
That being said, it stands to reason that the various leaders will participate in this adventure as a means to an end, be it the greater good of the race and/or their own greater good.

The Farseer is wise and very knowledgable. (let's assume ok? overlook the haughty arrogance for a sec.) Knowing his history and the impending fate of the Eldar,  he could be willing to look to the abilities and advantages of the whole race to find a way to prevent it. He knows there is strength in numbers as well, (something CWE, DE and Harlies lack standing alone) and that there are vast and experienced resources that can be tapped into, ie. Harlies and DE, that can bring something to the table that he and his CWE lack. He remembers the most what it was like before the Fall, as everywhere he looks is a reminder, and would have the strongest desire to keep what he has, even if it means overlooking what he does not like about his cousins.

The Archon is intelligent, cunning and shrewd. (abiet twisted and evil which do not always equate to insane) Generally his is a thirst for power, (of many kinds) and working with his his delusional cousins may be the way he sees to be the dominate power in the universe again and his way to achieve the piece of that very large pie. He also operates on a survival instinct. No Archon, or any DE is in a rush to die, and uniting with CWE and Harlies may be the way he sees to perserve his life for a little longer.

Harlies, well they are the middle ground. (and can be argured to have the arrogance and insanity of both races, but we will again overlook that) And to date the only Eldar who operate between all of the different worlds of the Eldar. He may recognize his cousins faults and idiosyncrasies for what they are, but sees past them to the Eldar who wields them. The dance they practice is a representation of history and art imitating life the way it was. Their goal could be to change it so they are no longer imitating it, but living life as it is meant to be in their eyes. He does not operate on a self survival instinct, but a race one.

In the end it burns down to preservation, self and race. Hatred, animosity and distrust will and do exsist, but they can be used as a tool when coupled with the aformentioned motives. They can also be used as careful, but tenuous, building blocks.
No society is perfect, and all have their struggles, but they always seem to manage to survive. Or they end in flames. But there are those brave enough to try and make it work for whatever reasons, like the Eldar of this Craftworld.

That was the 'WHY', and here is a possible 'HOW'.

A possible way to achieve balance on the battlefield would be to have more than one HQ. In large enough battles, (at least 2000 pts or more) an HQ representative of each faction would be present, in smaller battles, (2000 pts or less) make it only two. Be it a Farseer and an Archon, Great Harlequin and a Farseer and so on....

Using the full organizational chart, the breakdown could be easy. You have 6 troop choices, which could be divided into 2 apiece. 2 DE warriors, 2 Guardians, and 2 Harlequin or Mime Troupes.

The same goes for the Elites, Heavy Support and so on, which each have three choices to fill, that can't be divded completely even because Harlies lack in some areas here. But if a player takes 2 Falcon Grav Tanks in his/her Heavy Support, then his 3rd choice would have to be DE, and the reverse would be the same.
A balance would be possibly in Fast Attack were he/she would have to take 2 Reaver squads, and 1 Shining Spears. (just exaples)

In smaller games the breakdown is a little more difficult as you don't have as many slots to fill. If a player took all 4 troop choices of DE warriors, then his/her Elites and Fast Attack (and so on...) could not be occupied by DE.
But it would provide a balance so that all armies are represented. It could be made so that only 2 of the 4 could be dominated by one race. An example would be 2 squads of Guardians, with 1 of DE warriors, and 1 Mime Troupe. As long as no one choice is totally dominated by a paticular faction.
Another option could be that if a player, for example, took an Archon, (as 1 HQ choice) he could take all his troop choices as ONLY DE warriors, but the rest of the army would be made up of ONLY Harlies and CWE.
These thoughts though are for the smaller games and rules could easily be set up for organizational charts for small armies with variations of different HQ's.

Ok, now that I have been really long winded, I will shut up. Agree or disagree, I hope that my imput was helpful, or at least moderately amusing.
And if anyone in the powers that be at EO thought anything I said was worth while, I would be more than happy to help in any way that you need me.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2003, 02:55:13 AM by FallenSun »
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Offline ~Fallen~Sun~

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2003, 02:53:01 AM »
One other thought... stop groaning, I will attempt to be brief.

It was mentioned that this Craftworld would be considered cheesy because it would allow a player to select the best choices from each army. I have three things to say to that:

1) ALL good players attempt to take the best choices that that are offered to them. Have you ever seen a player intentionally fill his army with his weakest crap? If you have then he was a fool and you should have smacked him for stupidity. (And if you played him knowing his army was crap without trying to help him better it, what kind of player are you?)
2) All of the units chosen retain their original strengths and weaknesses. If you couldn't kill them before, you still won't be able to, and if you wiped them out before, they still die as easily.
3) No matter what is in any players army, it all comes down to how well he plays, how well his opponent plays, and the results of the dice. And if you can't beat him, don't just call it cheese. Work harder on YOUR army composition and YOUR tactics until you can beat him. Better yourself, stop worrying about what he has and you don't.

Oh yeah, one more thing... Above all, remember that this game is about having fun. SO HAVE FUN!!!!!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2003, 02:54:40 AM by FallenSun »
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Offline Janshi

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2003, 11:20:02 AM »
First, since I am so late..

Great thing this is! I loved the fluff (very Eldar-ish), the paintings and the pieces of drawn art all around.  The fluff explains a lot of ideas, characters and things happening within the Craftworld.  Can't wait to see what else comes up!

Second, to make the army less cheesy, you could have a Animosity Test.  You know, you roll a dice, 1-3 you pass, 4-6 you fail.  And you could do it so that if you fail, certain things happen like.

Roll a 4- Pick two squads, one from each faction, and make them stop.  They for a turn can do nothing.

Roll a 5- Whole army stops, they can fire but cannot assault or such.

Roll a 6- Pick two squads and have them go into combat, Close Combat.

This is not a final, just an idea to make the army seem less cheesy.
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Offline AiR

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2003, 11:28:11 AM »
That's a nice idea but what would it do to the fluff? The CWEO has a disease? They sometimes cannot assault but can shoot because their legs are to tired to charge?

Or so squads are just too lazy to assault so they pick two squads to assault  ;)
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Offline Janshi

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2003, 11:35:35 AM »
Hmm.  Maybe I can make it better.

Animosity Test

Every TWO turns, an animosity test must be made.  The test is made with a single dice.  

On a roll of 1-3, the various Eldar factions past their test and swallow their bile and hate and continue on shooting and killing (the enemy, that is).

On a roll of 4-6, they have failed their animosity test.  

On a roll of 4- One squad of a faction just flicked off, or really made a nasty name against a nother squad of another faction.  Angry, the two become heated.
In Game terms, you pick two squads of opposite factions, the nearest to each other, and they fail to do anything for an entire turn, all their energy turned against each other.

On a roll of 5- The leading factions commander turn against each other.  Each have to pass a Leadership test; if they pass, the only thing that happens is that every unit halts, unsure what to do now that their leaders are bickering.  They can still shoot, or if are in CC can continue on, but nothing else.  If one or more factions fail then war happens between that faction and the ones contesting it.  Thankfully, the factions can only shoot each other, not go into CC (Wyches against Guardians? uh oh!) and vehichles can continue along their business, blissfully unaware of what is going on.

On a roll of 6- TOTAL WAR! Anyone within 18" of the Command Squad suddenly go into all out war.

What do you think?
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2003, 11:40:36 AM »
Hmm.  Maybe I can make it better.

Animosity Test

Every TWO turns, an animosity test must be made.  The test is made with a single dice.  

On a roll of 1-3, the various Eldar factions past their test and swallow their bile and hate and continue on shooting and killing (the enemy, that is).

On a roll of 4-6, they have failed their animosity test.  

On a roll of 4- One squad of a faction just flicked off, or really made a nasty name against a nother squad of another faction.  Angry, the two become heated.
In Game terms, you pick two squads of opposite factions, the nearest to each other, and they fail to do anything for an entire turn, all their energy turned against each other.

On a roll of 5- The leading factions commander turn against each other.  Each have to pass a Leadership test; if they pass, the only thing that happens is that every unit halts, unsure what to do now that their leaders are bickering.  They can still shoot, or if are in CC can continue on, but nothing else.  If one or more factions fail then war happens between that faction and the ones contesting it.  Thankfully, the factions can only shoot each other, not go into CC (Wyches against Guardians? uh oh!) and vehichles can continue along their business, blissfully unaware of what is going on.

On a roll of 6- TOTAL WAR! Anyone within 18" of the Command Squad suddenly go into all out war.

What do you think?

seems kinda orky to have such massive in fighting go out
I'd rather have it that the squads refuse to help each other

or, leave the battlefield to their mates
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Offline Janshi

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2003, 11:48:42 AM »
True, I could change it so that in fact some run away...ok, a change.

Animosity Test

Every TWO turns, an animosity test must be made.  The test is made with a single dice.  

On a roll of 1-3, the various Eldar factions past their test and swallow their bile and hate and continue on shooting and killing (the enemy, that is).

On a roll of 4-6, they have failed their animosity test.  

On a roll of 4- One squad of a faction just flicked off, or really made a nasty name against a nother squad of another faction.  Angry, the two become heated.
In Game terms, you pick two squads of opposite factions, the nearest to each other, and they fail to do anything for an entire turn, all their energy turned against each other.

On a roll of 5- One whole squad from one faction will just run to the nearest table edge away from the enemy.

On a roll of 6- An entire factions troop starts running to the nearest table edge opposite of the enemy army.
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Offline Iolar

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2003, 08:51:58 PM »
Well, it does seem an awful big percentage of having your forces destroy each other, I suppose though, if a squad of your Banshees were just felled by Chaos Marines, and the nearby squad of wyches step over and devour their spirits, tension might be high. :)

Offline Janshi

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2003, 07:07:22 AM »
None of them kill each other, they just..run away.  
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Craftworld EldarOnline
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2003, 01:45:52 PM »
Well, it does seem an awful big percentage of having your forces destroy each other, I suppose though, if a squad of your Banshees were just felled by Chaos Marines, and the nearby squad of wyches step over and devour their spirits, tension might be high. :)

spirit stone nabs them first, i'd think (if they can hold of Slaanesh, they can hold off DE i'd say)

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