Topic: Punisher or Agonizer?

[- Human]

Here's my thing. I'm buying a 500pt. army, so my HQ will be a drachon who joins a raider squad.

My problem is, i hate the current archon model, and i really REALLY want to use the Incubi on that Vect guy's raider/ravager. He's got a cloak and a punisher, in a cool pose. Is a punisher really a bad idea? I just realised that with punisher you can actually wound T3 things on a 3+ as opposed to 4+ with an agonizer...

I know the main agonizer argument is that it's great against huge things like walkers, tanks and such. But i think i have enough DL's in the army.... 2 sniper squads and a raider with a DL, possibly a ravager or scourges.

So is a punisher still a good weapon to give my drachon?

[Lomendil]

A Punisher is great against foes with T3 or less, better than an Agonizer.

At T4 they break out pretty even.

At T5+ , the Agonizer has the edge, and it is also more useful against vehicles.


All in all, it's up to you. I personally favour the Agonizer, for being able to take down high Toughness beasties. I often use an Incubus Retinue, so I have plenty of Punisher attacks from them.


 

[mcguiggan]

I give my lord the Punisher.  Because I can give her Combat drugs and always take the +1 str and then give her the Animus Vitae which later in the games she will become str 6.  Which will walk through even the toughess of marines.

[LysergicZenRaver]

Note that you could always model a splinter pistol in the Incubus' free hand, and claim the polearm he's wielding is just a big Agoniser... to improve your credibility you could shorten the weapon, but that's not really needed (just look at the female Lord model). You could also cut off the Punisher completely and use a different weapon; you could try removing the entire Punisher arm and sticking on the Agoniser arm from the male Lord model, for example. You could also get together some spare bitz and come up with something that looks menacing.


I personally advise the Agoniser. The flexibility you gain makes up for the loss of power against T3, which are usually easily enough dealt with by the rest of your army. It also makes for a less expensive Lord, which is particularly important in small armies where you need the extra points to get more troops.


--Pyronate

[Reaver's Blade]

In 500 pts, I vote Punisher.  There shouldn't be anything too hideous, and you should have some DLs for tanks.  As was stated above, 6 str is just too cool to pass up.
In larger games, it really depends on the role of the character.  If he is going freelance, I say Agonizer, because he has the maneuverability (sp?) to jump into big uglies, but if he is with his Incubi, a Punisher is nice just to add some more power.

[LysergicZenRaver]

In 500 pts, I vote Punisher.  There shouldn't be anything too hideous, and you should have some DLs for tanks.  As was stated above, 6 str is just too cool to pass up.

But that's an extra 19 points. In a 500 point army, that's a significant chunk of points to spend on your HQ; at that small a point value, a 100 point Lord is already 20% of your army. Do you really want to spend 125-150 points on a single model when that's going to be 30% of your army?

In larger games, it really depends on the role of the character.  If he is going freelance, I say Agonizer, because he has the maneuverability (sp?) to jump into big uglies, but if he is with his Incubi, a Punisher is nice just to add some more power.

I'd say it's up in the air for each. Incubi rarely need more power, while they DO need something to help them out against T6+ foes.

As for a freelance Lord, the Agoniser gives flexibility, but when he's on his own, he may need the extra power to ensure victory, so you could easily make a case for the Punisher.


I throw in for the Agoniser in all cases, for the sake of flexibility. It also pisses off Death Guard players no end - they have to pay for that T5, but Disintegrators and Agonisers treat it the same they do T4.


--Pyronate

[Quentith]

plus the glance on a 6 with the agoniser is always nice, just incase you should ever take on a armored vehicle for whatever reason - not that i do, but its never bad to have as a bonus extra.

[linear]

In 500 pts this is probably overkill, but another option is mounting the lord on a reaver jetbike. This gives him S4. Then you could arm him with both an agonizer for T5+ creatures, and a regular powerweapon for T3 enemies.  Oh, and don't forget about the combat drugs and tormentor helmet.

[VidZero]

I always give all my characters the agoniser because you dont know what your going to be up against also all my characters gets the privlage of an addition close combat weapon and tormenter helm to maximize the agonisers power (that right +2 attacks!)

[Pendragon]

I usually like one lord by himself with agonisor and one drachon with retinue with punisher. In my wych squads I put half and half. Two squads with punisher/t-helm and two with agonisor/sp. This gives me all the flexibility you can ask for.

At 500 points I would field one Drachon with agonisor, sp, shadowfield, and combat drugs. I would use raider squads armed with s-cannon and blasters. It is cheaper and means more models.

[CrimsonShadow]

Actually, on a rjb lord, I go with power weapon and +1 ST option.  I put the agonisers on my Dracons and succubi.  A rjb Archon is actually cheaper than a Dracon with Incubi retinue.  If you make him a Dracon, your entire HQ is only 140 points.  You might consider a rjb lord, and throw the extra points into the rest of your army. That leaves you 360 points.  A dracon with retinue will leave you at 269 points.  AND, your HQ will be footslogging it with no Raider to transport them.  I say go with the rjb lord.  Give him a power weapon, t-helm, combat drugs, and of course the shadowfield, and then give your other characters agonisers.  

I'd probably go with an 8 man Raider squad with SC and Blaster and an aoniser Sybarite, plus 2 10 man sniper squads.  160 points for the Raider squad, 140 points for the lord, and 100 points each for the sniper squads.  That's 500 points exactly.  If you wanted to, you could drop the sniper squads and go with a large footsloging assault unit as well.  17 troops with 2 splinter cannons, 2 shredders, and an agoniser Sybarite will cost 202 points, putting your total at 502 points.  You could shoot your lord and Raider squad forward and engage his troops (attack the same unit and concentrate your power), and then use the ensuing cc and whatever cover is available to move your 17 man unit up as fast as you can as cleanup.  You could also work the counterassault angle with the large 17 man unit.  Only problem is, you don't have a ton of Heavy weapon support, where you have the 4 darklances in the the sniper squads.  

One final option, would be to drop ONE of the sniper units, and field a Talos.  I think I like this option best now that I think about it.  That gives you one sniper unit to pop any armor, 1 Raider squad and your lord to shoot forward and engage your enemy on your terms, and a Talos to run straight up the middle to draw fire away from the rest of your Troops.  (And if your opponent DOESN'T shoot at your Talos you'll just LOVE it when it makes it into cc)  Yep, at 500 points, my list would look like this:

HQ
Dracon with power weapon, t-helm, combat drugs, shadowfield, reaver jetbike.  (choose the +1ST and reroll misses drug options)
(140 points)

TROOPS
Raider squad
8 Warriors with 1 Splinter Cannon, 1 Blaster
Sybarite Agoniser/Splinter pistol
(160 points)
(this is 8 men total including your Sybarite)

Sniper squad
10 Warriors with 2 Darklances
(100 points)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Talos
(100 points)

Total = 500 points

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and welcome to EO.  

That is all.

CrimsonShadow

[VidZero]

Are you guys giving your lords an aditional close combat weapon in addition to your agoniser and tormentor helm?
If not your missing out on an additional +1 attack in close combat

[LysergicZenRaver]

VidZero:

That has never been officially confirmed in a GW Q&A or similar. Thus, we must rely on the rules as they are presented, which clearly state that you never receive more than +1A, regardless of how many CCWs you have.


- Human:

For your army, I recommend taking a footslogger Dracon and fielding him with a Raider squad. I also recommend taking 2 Raider squads.

This lends itself quite well to 400 and 600 point armies, but suffers at the 500 point level. Here's a few sample lists I would advise:

Dracon (Agoniser, SP) - 56 pts
Raider Squad (9 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 168 pts
Raider Squad (10 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 176 pts
TOTAL: 400 pts

Note that while drugs will significantly improve the power of the Lord, you'd need to drop points elsewhere; getting rid of 3 Warriors or dropping one Sybarite would achieve this, but would put a dent in the overall effectiveness of your army (and thus is not advised)

Dracon (Agoniser, SP, Combat Drugs) - 81 pts
Raider Squad (9 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 168 pts
Raider Squad (10 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 176 pts
Raider Squad (10 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 176 pts
TOTAL: 601 pts

If your foes are anal about going 1 point over, you can drop one warrior and spend the 7 points elsewhere - maybe Plasma Grenades and a Hell Mask for your Dracon, or a Horrorfex on the Dracon raider squad

Dracon (Agoniser, SP, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field) - 106 pts
Raider Squad (9 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 168 pts
Raider Squad (9 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 168 pts
Raider Squad (9 men, SC, Blaster, Syb w/ Agoniser) - 168 pts
Ravager (3Dis, Night Shield) - 140 pts
TOTAL: 750 pts

A good point value for a small army using my approach to DE. I recommend shooting for 750 as quickly as possible, and skipping 500 completely.

The problem with 500 points is that you need to either include a footslogger element (such as a sniper squad, 2SC squad, or Talos) or spend an extra 100 points upgrading existing models instead of adding new ones. Neither is a particularly attractive option in my mind. Another option would be to include 3 Reavers with a couple Blasters, filling up another 95 points... this has a similar role as a sniper squad, with much greater mobility.


--Pyronate

[Reaver's Blade]

But that's an extra 19 points. In a 500 point army, that's a significant chunk of points to spend on your HQ; at that small a point value, a 100 point Lord is already 20% of your army. Do you really want to spend 125-150 points on a single model when that's going to be 30% of your army?

Yes I do.  Properly shielded, this model does serious damage, and is nearly untouchable.

I'd say it's up in the air for each. Incubi rarely need more power, while they DO need something to help them out against T6+ foes.

As DE, I find (as I'm sure you do too) I can exercise the maneuverability to stay away from T6+ foes.  If I was foolish enough to let my Incubi be charged by a Wraithlord or the like, they can pay for my mistake... as I will too, at the loss of my Incubi.

As for a freelance Lord, the Agoniser gives flexibility, but when he's on his own, he may need the extra power to ensure victory, so you could easily make a case for the Punisher.

Of course you can make a case, and just as strong a one, if not more, than the one I made.  Was just expressing my opinion

I throw in for the Agoniser in all cases, for the sake of flexibility. It also pisses off Death Guard players no end - they have to pay for that T5, but Disintegrators and Agonisers treat it the same they do T4.

Just to argue this to death, it also pisses off Marine players for me to wound their troops on 2s... and I might point out that SMurfs are more common than Death Guard.

[CrimsonShadow]

Pyronate and Reavers Blade...play nice, or Uncle Crimson will send you both to your rooms with no pudding!  If you can't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!  How can you have any pudding if you can't eat your...sorry...went somewhere else for a sec.    
We don't need no...edge-yew-kay-shun!
That is all.

CrimsonShadow

[LysergicZenRaver]

As DE, I find (as I'm sure you do too) I can exercise the maneuverability to stay away from T6+ foes.  If I was foolish enough to let my Incubi be charged by a Wraithlord or the like, they can pay for my mistake... as I will too, at the loss of my Incubi.

Generally true, but not always - especially against static enemies that tend to keep their units within support range of each other. Having an Agoniser Lord lets me gladly charge into such a huddle and dare my foe to send his WL/Dread after me.

Of course you can make a case, and just as strong a one, if not more, than the one I made.  Was just expressing my opinion

And I was just expanding the statement to include the other side. No harm done.

Just to argue this to death, it also pisses off Marine players for me to wound their troops on 2s... and I might point out that SMurfs are more common than Death Guard.

True indeed. But that's where Incubi come in - they deal with the SMurfs while the Archon deals with anything tougher. And a Punisher Archon isn't much better than an Agoniser against T4 unless you have an active Animus, and/or use 3 drug options.

(Following stats are a charging Archon against marines)

An S5 Punisher (+1S/RRM) deals 2.96 wounds.
An Agoniser (+1A/RRM) deals 2.67 wounds.
An S6 Punisher (+1S/RRM) deals 3.7 wounds.

So for +19 points, once you've captured a slave (if you capture a slave), you'll cause one more wound than an Agoniser Lord. Interestingly enough, for +25 points you can add an Incubus, which will cause one more wound without needing to capture a slave beforehand, as well as adding another model to the retinue - 3+ save and all.

Note that including +1A drugs brings the S6 Punisher to 4.4 wounds, but also raises the overdose risk to about a 50% chance of losing a wound (and 2.8% of dieing). +1A with the S5 Punisher brings it to 3.56 wounds, but carries the same risk of overdose. Note that with a W2 Dracon, this is a significant risk to your person, especially once you've lost a wound. It also prevents you from taking 12" assault should you need it (often important for freelance Lords), since that would be 4 drug options - an absurd risk to take with a 125+ point model.


Against T5 enemies:

An S5 Punisher (+1S/RRM) will cause 2.22 wounds.
An S5 Punisher (+1A/+1S/RRM) will cause 2.67 wounds.
An S6 Punisher (+1S/RRM) will cause 2.96 wounds.
An S6 Punisher (+1A/+1S/RRM) will cause 3.56 wounds.
An Agoniser (+1A/RRM) will cause 2.67 wounds.

Against T6:

An S5 Punisher (+1S/RRM) will cause 1.48 wounds.
An S5 Punisher (+1A/+1S/RRM) will cause 1.78 wounds.
An S6 Punisher (+1S/RRM) will cause 2.22 wounds.
An S6 Punisher (+1A/+1S/RRM) will cause 2.67 wounds.
An Agoniser (+1A/RRM) will cause 2.67 wounds.


To sum all that up: Taking the Punisher is only significantly better against T4 if you also take an Animus and use +1A/+1S/RRM drugs at the same time. This is very risky for a Dracon, though you can try to pull it off with an Archon.


--Pyronate

[Reaver's Blade]

Very true of course, but don't forget T3...

And Crimson, we are playing nice, don't you think so Pyro?

[LysergicZenRaver]

Quite nice, particularly considering we're debating an argument that's been batted back and forth since the update was released.

T3 would take, like, effort. My point had more to do with showing that a Punisher Lord isn't much better against Marines than an Agoniser Lord, particularly when you factor in the extra cost. Specifically, for a Dracon, where taking 3 drug options is a significant risk.


--Pyronate

[- Human]

if one of you two hadn't put in your comments, i'd be decided by now. Curse the both of you!

He's not going with an incubi retinue.... he's goign with a raider squad with a sybarite w/ agonizer. Does that change the situation at all?

[Archon Gahraktael]

I used the agoniser lord for a long time, but since the update, I have switched to the punisher, as reaver's blade so eloquently put it, "it also pisses off Marine players for me to wound their troops on 2s"  I couldn't agree more.  They just seem to think that they're invincible in HtH, and the DE are excellent at proving them wrong.  I've said before that to me, it's just more amusing when a single model accounts for so many kills, lets you play mind games with the poor kids.  They almost cry when your archon casually butchers half a squad before they get to lift a finger.