Topic: Your view of Punk

[Two Blades as One, Samurai Ichirou]

yes, very much so (im not emo though).

[chromedog]

My only comment on the state of 'punk' music these days can be summed up by the urban balladeer, Jello biafra

Punk's not dead
It just deserves to die
When it becomes another stale cartoon
A close-minded, self-centered social club
Ideas don't matter, it's who you know
If the music's gotten boring
It's because of the people
Who want everyone to sound the same
Who drive bright people out
Of our so-called scene
'Til all that's left Is just a meaningless fad
Hardcore formulas are dogsh*t
Change and caring are what's real
Is this a state of mind
Or just another label
The joy and hope of an alternative
Have become its own cliche
A hairstyle's not a lifestyle
Imagine Sid Vicious at 35
Who needs a scene
Scared to love and to feel
Judging everythng
By loud fast rules appeal
Who played last night?
"I don't know, I forgot.
But diving off the stage Was a lot of fun."
[Chorus:]
So eager to please
Peer pressure decrees
So eager to please
Peer pressure decrees

Make the same old mistakes
Again and again,
Chickensh*t conformist
Like your parents
What's ripped us apart even more than drugs
Are the thieves and the Yhwh-condemned liars
Flipping people off when they share their stuff
When someone falls are there any friends?
Harder core than thou for a year or two
Then it's time to get a real job
Others stay home, it's no fun to go out
When the gigs are wrecked by gangs and thugs
When the thugs form bands, look who gets record deals
From New York metal labels looking to scam
Who sign the most racist queerbashing bands they can find
To make a buck revving kids up for war
Walk tall, act small
Only as tough as gang approval
Unity is bullsh*t
When it's under someone's fat boot
Where's the common cause
Too many factions
Safely sulk in their shells
Agree with us on everything
Or we won't help with anythng
That kind of attitude
Just makes a split grow wider
Guess who's laughing while the world explodes
When we're all crybabies
Who fight best among ouselves

[Chorus]

That farty old rock and roll attitude's back
"It's competition, man, we wanna break big."
Who needs friends when the money's good
That's right, the '70s are back.
Cock-rock metal's like a bad laxative
It just don't move me, ya know?
The music's OK when there's more ideas than solos
Do we rally need the attitude too?
Shedding thin skin too quickly
As a fan it disappoints me
Same old stupid sexist lyrics
Or is Satan all you can think of?
Crossover is just another word
For lack of ideas
Maybe what we need
Are more trolls under the bridge
Will the metalheads finally learn something-
Or will the punks throw away their education?
No one's ever the best
Once they believe their own press
"Maturing" don't mean rehashing
Mistakes of the past

[Chorus]

The more things change
The more they stay the same
We can't grow
When we won't criticize ourselves
The '60s weren't all failure
It's the '70s that stunk
As the clock ticks we dig the same hole
Music scenes ain't real life
They won't get rid of the bomb
Won't eliminate rape
Or bring down the banks
Any kind of real change
Takes more time and work
Than changing channels on a TV set

[Chorus]

"Chickensh*t conformist" - Dead Kennedys.

It might be a breath of fresh air, if it wasn't the same stale old stink of commercialism that I've smelled before.
Green Day - Punk?  Gimme a break.  They're as punk as my Grandma (considering she was a flapper, I think grannie was actually more punk than them.)

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Yeah man, fight the power and so on.

Seriously all this ragging on bands that become successful is really starting to bore me. I like some punk. I don't class Green Day as punk quite frankly, and I don't much like them but I wouldn't write a song about how little I like them. Some punk is good. [Spunge] are a good example of a good, fun, dirty ska-punk band (for the record: ska-punk has absolutely nothing to do with skating, and everything to do with the ska/reggae movement and skanking until your feet bleed) who don't need to rant about political topics, choosing instead to focus on schizophrenia and hair styles. And they make damn good songs about such topics as well

[Wurzelmaniac]

This may because of the standard of punk I hear but whatever, I'm a prog/rocker/emo so I do prefer a reduced amount of distort and volume whereas punk seems to be best appreciated slightly above the pain threshold.

Are you at all familiar with the roots of emo (ie. Emotional Hardcore), and the sort of music that is properly defined as emo, rather than just being tagged with it these days?

Yep. But genres never remain static remember. My taste goes towards bands like Motion City Soundtrack or Benton Falls rather than My Chemical Romance and the 'hardcore' end of the spectrum (screamo et al) which would probably get classed under the crummy 'alternative' label.

[Two Blades as One, Samurai Ichirou]

I like some punk. I don't class Green Day as punk quite frankly, 

Same here, but i like every genre of rock really, so i work on the fact of iif i like a song/band, i listen to that song/band but i don't commit myself to it.

[chromedog]

That song was written 21 years ago.   1986.   Which means it's probably older than most of Green Day's fans. 
Jello Biafra was mucho dismayed by the state of punk music back then.

Has much in music changed in the meantime?   Not as far as I can tell.

There are undoubtedly some puks still out there, but they won't be heard of by most people, as the very nature of the message is anti-commercial, so radio won't play it.  Green Day, Sum41, and the handful of other 'punk acts' do not qualify while being lapdogs of the corporate music culture.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

I think Sum 41 are pretty good. Just because they don't satisfy some people's elitist attitudes doesn't make them guilty of poor music. And they are, or have been, pretty close to punk. Closer than Green Day anyway.

Please note: the "some people" thing wasn't a crack at anyone in this thread, it was a general thing.

[Cypher037]

Firstoff, I'd just like to say that I consider myself punk-- a real punk. The music I listen(ed) to influenced me life greatly. It taught me to question everything. The government, parents, newspapers, books, friends, teachers, even punk.
Punk views include:
-Individuality
-Unity (yeah, I know)
-Anarchy
-Peace
-Anti-Religion
-Anti-Police
-Drugs/Alcohol
-Anti-Drugs/Alcohol
-Anti-Consumerism
-Lower Class Pride
-Nihilism
-Animal Rights
-Environmentalism
-Equality
-Freedom
-and more

I don't support all of these notions, in fact some I outright despise (anarchy, lower class pride). Punk is broad enough to encompass many many viewpoints.

One of my favorite aspects of punk is the solidarity. If I go to another city, and see another punk, I've got a friend.

Those who think punk is dead, just do know how to look. sure there's alot of punk corpses around, but that doesn't mean there aren't punks still living.

This is awefull incoherent-- sorry.

I think Sum 41 are pretty good. Just because they don't satisfy some people's elitist attitudes doesn't make them guilty of poor music. And they are, or have been, pretty close to punk. Closer than Green Day anyway.

Just because you aren't punk doesn't mean it's poor musicianship (in fact, if anything, It'd be the other way 'round), it just means it isn't punk. Saying it's more punk than Greenday doesn't count.

That song was written 21 years ago.   1986.  which means it's probably older than most of Green Day's fans. 
Jello Biafra was mucho dismayed by the state of punk music back then.

Has much in music changed in the meantime?   Not as far as I can tell.

There are undoubtedly some puks still out there, but they won't be heard of by most people, as the very nature of the message is anti-commercial, so radio won't play it.  Green Day, Sum41, and the handful of other 'punk acts' do not qualify while being lapdogs of the corporate music culture.

Agreed, music in general has not changed much, but I asure you, we are still out there.

Oh, one thing on the "elitist" punkers. Just because something isn't punk (and by the way, this isn't something you can just decide,  you just are, or you aren't), doesn't mean it's bad. The only thing wrong with not-punk is that it tries/thinks it's punk. Theres also no law that says to be cool, you have to be punk. So all the folks who call punks elitists for branding certain bands not punk, are being just as immature for caring what labels their music has in the first place.

Before I conclude this haphazard post, I'd just like to throw out some great punk bands you should all check out.
Against All Authority, The Code, Complete Control, Conflict, Flatliners, Krum Bums, The Pist, Subhumans, Zounds

-Leo

[Full Metal Geneticist]

The Stranglers...
Buzzcocks...
Stiff Little Fingers...
Ramones...?

Come on children...

The punk movement was a rebellion movement. Primarily against "rock" cause "rock" had become tame. Remember in the 60s it was Joplin, Dylan, Hendrix, The Who, Led Zepplin and the beatles. Quite wild people who ruled rock...

THE problem was like the current problem of Rap, R&B and Pop have. At the time Cliff Richard, Simon and Garfunkel and Billy Joel were being classed as rock. Why? Because unlike the vomit choking antics of Zepplin they were nice clean boys who appealed to moms and dads who wanted their kiddies to grow up nice. The rebel in rock was long gone since either the proponents were a combination of Dead/Gloriously Rich/Both. Its the irony that killed Rap today (i.e 50 Cent rapping about being poor and having to fight in gang wars when in reality he has gold teeth and has security gaurds to shoot people for him...)

Spiritually both Punk and Hippy movements share a common ground of anarchist disobedience to the "man". Infact Punk is a direct offshoot of the hippy movement if you look at concepts such as the shared disobedience and drug use. However the outlook is what differed. Hippy's are optimists, and take optimistic drugs... So Weed, Hashish, LSD and Shrooms. The Punk are nihilist, so "live for today drugs" so you begin to see less psychadelia in their music and more stuff like coke and heroin.

While hippy's were non confrontational (i.e passive) in their rebellion punk was not. Thats pretty much the difference. I would say the Hippy were more rebellious due to their radically different views at the time (Influenced by the beatles style of eastern thinking). They took the fight up for different reasons. The thing is most of the reasons why they did it are lost in todays world.

[Dark Flame]

This may because of the standard of punk I hear but whatever, I'm a prog/rocker/emo so I do prefer a reduced amount of distort and volume whereas punk seems to be best appreciated slightly above the pain threshold.

Are you at all familiar with the roots of emo (ie. Emotional Hardcore), and the sort of music that is properly defined as emo, rather than just being tagged with it these days?

Yep. But genres never remain static remember. My taste goes towards bands like Motion City Soundtrack or Benton Falls rather than My Chemical Romance and the 'hardcore' end of the spectrum (screamo et al) which would probably get classed under the crummy 'alternative' label.

And I'd say your taste, is, generally, better in that respect (mainly because I can't stand My Chemical Romance).  I was referring more to bands like Rites Of Spring, Cap'n Jazz, Sunny Day Real Estate, Karate, Hoover, or Jawbox though.  Plenty of them have brilliant melodic moments, deliver powerful emotions, and manage to stay pretty firmly within the punk genre.  While also being some of the formative bands in terms of 'emo.'

[Cypher037]

The punk movement was a rebellion movement.

Punk today isn't what it was. The backlash is over, but the kids are still there. Just as angry. People confuse punk-then with punk-now.

[Wurzelmaniac]

Music genres suck. Full stop.

Machinehead and Simon And Garfunkel are both classed as Rock. If that doesn't say it all I dunno what does.

Using the term 'punk' today covers, about 90% of the bands that start up in a given year as yet another bunch of teenagers grow up listening to Blink-182 and considering Limp Bizkit a hardcore band. Punk has become the norm and thus, meaningless.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Oh not just Simon and Garfunkel (who are talented musicians just not Rock...)

Cliff Richard... I can't even begin to rank how Mr. Richards got into rock when Rock gave us Zepplin and Keith Moon and the drummer of Def Leppard (Who i have the deepest admiration for on the basis of they stuck with their drummer. You just don't see that kind of loyalty anymore with the music industry these days)

There is still things to rebel about. There are the "rebel without a clue bands" (Towers of London) and there are a few which live to the original concept such as the Libertines (who often spoke out against a variety of things such as racism. Listen to Albrecht Macht Frei)

Its still there, the things people are rebelling about are different. Its not class war anymore.

Infact I am quite sad. Tried to get Zepplin tickets... Could'nt...

Anyone with tickets needing a man date you know who to ring...

[Cypher037]

Using the term 'punk' today covers, about 90% of the bands that start up in a given year as yet another bunch of teenagers grow up listening to Blink-182 and considering Limp Bizkit a hardcore band. Punk has become the norm and thus, meaningless.

Just because a bunch of bands call themselves punk, doesn't devalue real punk. Yes Limp Bizkit and Blink-182 are meaningless. No, Behind Enemy Lines aren't. It doesn't matter how many posers (god I hate that word, but its apt none the less) exist, the real deal will always be there.

I do know what you mean though, the number of "alternative" kids at a friend of mine's highschool is frightening-- to the point that if I went there, I propably wouldn't dress punk. I have far more respect for the emo/goth/punk kids of my old highschool where there where 4 punks, and maybe 10 emo or goth kids.

-Leo

[CODE BLACK]

i pretty much like punk music. but then i pretty much like all rock. but punk has changed, ya just have to live with it... but in my opinion proper punk is when you can make the 2 album and then just resell in a different order with maybe 1 new track 8 times, thats what the sex pistols did. and as for green day, i personally dont see them as punk, but they are kind of. people complain that they dont like green day because there so commercialized and popular, but isn't that a plus for them? and to become one of the biggest bands ever with such a politically orientated album is something special. people just complain too much... 

i have a feeling that might just be some meaningless gibberish ive just wrote...

[Wurzelmaniac]

Using the term 'punk' today covers, about 90% of the bands that start up in a given year as yet another bunch of teenagers grow up listening to Blink-182 and considering Limp Bizkit a hardcore band. Punk has become the norm and thus, meaningless.

Just because a bunch of bands call themselves punk, doesn't devalue real punk. Yes Limp Bizkit and Blink-182 are meaningless. No The Behind Enemy Lines aren't. It doesn't matter how many posers (god I hate that word, but its apt none the less) exist, the real deal will always be there.

So... No True Scotsman then?

[Cypher037]

So... No True Scotsman then?

Maybe. We'd all need to agree on what punk is (not was-- we can all agree on what punk was) first though. Even so, No True Scotsman is a gigantic oversimplification.

-Leo

[-The Reaper-]

When someone says punk to me i think of bands like these:

Strung out
Adequate seven
NoFx
Lagwagon
Mad caddies
A Wilhelm Scream

Check the link for a uk ska band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RGaV28Dg_8

The list goes on forever, Punk is still around people just need to look for it, check music labels like Fat Wreck chords and epitaph.

[trikirksey]

not a punker here (i'm a house head, which is a whole other misconception cluster-beslubber) but i thought i would kick down.

uk:  the clash, sex pistols, siouxie (hadn't seen any of them mentioned yet, but i skimmed)

us:  mc5 (kick out the jams snake on a plane!  more nascent punk than punk, but headed in the right direction fo sho)
the RAMONES (ffs this band is probably the most influential punk band EVER (them or sex pistols).  all of the saccharine amphetamine parrot i hear on the radio sounds a lot like these guys, who are good but copied a lot)
patti smith
     "New York is the thing that seduced me. New York is the thing that formed me. New     
      York is the thing that deformed me. New York is the thing that perverted me. New
      York is the thing that converted me. And New York is the thing that I love
      too."
(omfg she was the original player)

a history of cbgb's by the club's owner.  if nyc was the mecca of punk then cbgb's was the meteor everyone went to touch.  much detail:

http://www.cbgb.com/history1.htm

i watched an awesome documentary about the evolution of popular music over the last 100 yrs.  one of the best scenes was an interview of the sex pistols' manager talking about jonny and sid coming into his store and how he (the manager) was selling "quite a lot of bondage trousers at that time."  rofl  apparently they hit it off and he went from punk gear store manager to band manager.

the ramones had one rule:  3 chords.  this is why i think they were so good.  they could make 3, just 3!, chords into a amphetamine parrot-load of songs.  good ones too.

go to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock

to learn more.

peace out,
tk

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

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