Topic: [US] Read before you rally, read before you claim a clue

[Rasmus]

Ok, so from posting here recently it has become evident that a lot of you US-based members of our Community have absolute no clue as to what your nation is doing. And no, I am not talking about the less than subtle manipulation of facts on Fox, or the foreign approval of your policies. Your domestic medias are poor at covering those. We know. Don't worry.
   No, what I am worried that you don't know what is going on in your own government, how your laws are being subverted and how your rights are being stripped from you. I find it frightening and not a little disheartening that the nation which is considered the only remaining superpower can do this to its own citizens and noone seems to mind.
   No, I am not Alex Jones with a lot of dramatic conspiracy-theories. I just want you to read a few things before you speak out about how grand or messy your nation is. I am not Michael Moore to bring blame down on a single party or group. I just want to you start leafing through something as simple and small as the Constitution (no, not all the amendments) and the Bill of Rights. Then compare it to how your nation is currently run. There are dramatic differences.
   I found, in particular, that the thought of people not knowing the difference between Right and Privilege, or that the thought of the 14th Amendment being a good thing (it was a good idea, but the structure opened a can of worms that was supposed to remain closed), is disturbing.
   If you don't know what your rights are you cannot defend them, making it even easier for anyone who wants to take them away from you (and people have, for a long time, systematically). I think that you have a right to be free, like everyone else, but as long as you do not know how you are being controlled and herded around you cannot be free. It is a tad more than sad, really.

After reading up on a bit of this stuff, not all of it, but some, it becomes apparent that you actually do not need a driver's license in the US, nor a license-plate on your car. That is, as long as you got your car by paying cash, getting the right piece of paper (“the car's birth-certificate”), and you avoid claiming being a Citizen of the United States you are fine. Be a citizen of Alaska, Texas or North Dakota, just stay away from being a citizen of the United States (14th Amendment again, sorry).

So, how can you learn a bit more about this? Read the Constitution. Not “Oh I have already”. Sit down and read it. All of it, including the Preamble and the Bill of Rights. If you don't feel like it below is a link to a lecture on the subject. He does not tell you anything that is not in there, or subject to public records, so look up anything you feel you want to, before dismissing or believing it.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=constitution+class+for+patriots


Once you are done, and you still feel the need to comment, please do but please, please don't talk before you actually read what is being said.

If you are not a US-national (as little as I am) then you are in luck, but I suggest reading/watching anyway, as it is most enlightening.

[Frescadude]

So where is the proof of the "state of emergency that you claimed we have been in since '33?  I've read the constitution many times and while there are differences in the original text and in how we live, they're covered by the amendments.  Could you list some specific rights that we have lost?  Because overall, neither I nor any of the people I know are regularly denied freedoms.  Your entire above post basically calls most Americans ignorant and seems to claim a great knowledge of some foreboding evil attempting to destroy all that we hold dear and to repress us.  So list some rights we've lost, other than the PATRIOT Act, and some clear links to show us how we have lost them.  I"m talking text, unless all you can find is a couple hour long videos.

[Plague Tower of Nurgle]

actually most of America IS ignorant. a good majority do not vote or even care to vote ( i fall in this group because i find politics to be stupid)
i find that there is ALOT wrong with this country and politicians do nothing to correct it. we would rather go running off to some foreign nation to deal with their problems than similar problems in our own nation. I feel that majority of Americans just want to be happy driving their SUVs and watch MTV than deal with the real issues that the US has. America has become fat and lazy, and coorporate America wants to milk you for every penny you have.

Our government needs to think about things like poverty, education, healthcare, the damn illigal immigration, STOPPING the freaking war and  NOT getting in any conflicts, developing alternate fuels and creating alternate power sources.

as for loss of rights; i can see where some freedom of speach has been lost and most importantly things like wire tapping or the fact that the government is constantly monitoring us. i find it ironic how many rights illigal immigrants get and what they get access to. they get fed and can get medical treatment, if they run across the border pregnant and pop a kid out on the other side the kid is a citizen and mommy and daddy can stay.

im not going to post my views on immigration as many many many people would become offended.

and as for my closing argument i say... only in America

Only in America can a chimp become President.

[Rasmus]

Could you list some specific rights that we have lost?  Because overall, neither I nor any of the people I know are regularly denied freedoms.

   Actually you are, to a large extent. You are just used to it. The money you use, by simple example, and the taxes that are collected are pretty good to point this out. However, Michael puts this better than me. I refer you back to it.

Your entire above post basically calls most Americans ignorant and seems to claim a great knowledge of some foreboding evil attempting to destroy all that we hold dear and to repress us.

   I am not, I am just saying that some here need a littel extra dose of the laws that you live under. You feel you are informed and that you are not being denied your rights? Good for you; this topic does not apply to you. Congrats.

So list some rights we've lost, other than the PATRIOT Act, and some clear links to show us how we have lost them.  I"m talking text, unless all you can find is a couple hour long videos.

   I think I will refer you back to Michael, the video and the handouts you can get from his page. They cover this quite well. If you are too lazy to read them or watch it then I am sorry, but I cannot help you further.

 You can read a chapter of Mike's book if you want to, it is on pdf here. It points out some of the rights you have lost without knowing it, like the ownership of your own car. You don't own your car, did you know that? You don't own it and just rent it from the state. The rent is called "license". Hence the plate.


You also lose your Freedom of Speech if you get too close to Bush's ranch. I love that. "Close" is by this ... several miles... not really earshot.

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

You're forgetting something here Rasmus. Laws can be seperate from the constitution. As long as they don't contradict something in the constitution, they're fine.

On another note, you're basing your judgements on what is happening in the US off of media sources. What makes those sources more credible than our "poor" news agencies? By all means, criticize all you want. However, it just sounds like you're giving yourself an air of superiority by looking from the outside in. Problem is, you're looking through the same pair of glasses as the rest of us.

   Actually you are, to a large extent. You are just used to it. The money you use, by simple example, and the taxes that are collected are pretty good to point this out. However, Michael puts this better than me. I refer you back to it.

No taxation without representation? If we wanted to stop taxation, we could. However, we like things like Schools, Police, Fire Department, and other things our taxes pay for.

Nothing happens in this country that we don't allow. How we allow things to happen is another matter, as its hard as hell to get everyone to agree, but that's the entire point of our constitution.

[Rasmus]

You're forgetting something here Rasmus. Laws can be seperate from the constitution. As long as they don't contradict something in the constitution, they're fine.

  As quite a few are, what then? Yes, that's in the lecture too.

On another note, you're basing your judgements on what is happening in the US off of media sources.

  Actually, most is based on what people living in the US have been writing about their lives. Bloggs are great once you get into reading them. Foreign media (that is, the news) report very little about the domestic US, only when you riot or somesuch. Documentaries shot by americans, for americans, or by others, and virally spread, are nice. Just don't believe a single one, only when they say the same htings en masse. Critical reading is the key. Well, reading is the key.

I am not making a personal attack on the USA, or on any of you, please don't think that I am. I just want you guys to actually look at what is there, not at what is being shown.

Nothing happens in this country that we don't allow.

  Oh boy... That means you think you know about all the things your governement does to you and everyone else? Really? I don't think anyone knows all of that. Relying on what is being reported on Fox is just not cutting it.


Set aside 7 hours and listen to the lecture. It does bring up better ponts than I can in this post. I am not going to even try to summarize it for you. Part 1 is essential.

[Arcas]

I've heard something about a relatively new law which basically says that the president can define who is an enemy combatant.This basically enables him to have anyone arrested at any time, regardless of what courts say.


Mod abuse edit - linky.

[Voltxion]

well First off Hello there.

second

I just want to you start leafing through something as simple and small as the Constitution (no, not all the amendments) and the Bill of Rights.

are you telling me to read through something thats not been updated and make a decision for myself. . . its what 200+ years old? with 27 amendments I believe, correct me if I'm mistaken but thats a lot of revisions to not read. Oh how I feel for your 40k opponents when they question you on 4th edition rules and you tell them to read the 1st edition book...

Ok now the lecture part of your post. This kind of aggravated me about 20-24 minutes into step one, with the argument about building his house and then just burning it down because he wanted to rebuild it without all the work involved and saying its legal because its his property is semi-true because yes it is your property however your property is connected to another property or two depending on where in the US you live. This is one reason why its still considered arson whether or not you have insurance out on the house, this is for safety reasons. If you buy a  plot of land and want to CUT everything down, go for it, however if you want to burn all the trees down because its quicker, one you would need a Permit in MOST states because the threat of a forest fire and/or safety of others, and two you would USUALLY need the local fire commissioner watching and standing by and helping or doing the deed.

What I'm getting at is the video, no matter the validity of the points he makes later on, his views on the subject are skewed. he states that the constitution gives you Rule over your land which it does until you endanger the lives of others or property not owned by you, which setting fire to your house does.

Theres Rules that take away a single persons freedoms for the good of the masses. period the end.

Also about the whole media being manipulated thing, sorry to break the news to you but, everything is manipulated in some way or another, because people are greedy, and manipulative, even the most pure of us. so in order to get all views on a subject you would have to read/watch everything from past till the end of time to get a unbiased view on the subject, which seeing as your source is FOX and various other manipulated sources and not living here to see what day to day operations are you should not speak on the topic, I don't call your government corrupt do I? no, why? because I have not read everything I can find / have I lived in your country to see how everything is run and how people are treated from all walks of life.   

If you do not want to cite any of the freedoms were loosing that you claim we are all too out of touch with our government to see get taken away , please do not even bother posting at all.

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

Actually, most is based on what people living in the US have been writing about their lives. Bloggs are great once you get into reading them. Foreign media (that is, the news) report very little about the domestic US, only when you riot or somesuch. Documentaries shot by americans, for americans, or by others, and virally spread, are nice. Just don't believe a single one, only when they say the same htings en masse. Critical reading is the key. Well, reading is the key.

Yes, because bloggers are the most trustworthy of sources. I look at everything critically, and I don't believe everything I see on TV. I'm not blind to what's happening. I know that every day the Executive Branch gains more and more power and grows beyond its boundaries. But like I said, everything that happens here happens because we let it.

At any time, we can all rise up, and say we want out of Iraq, we want Bush hanged as a traitor, and put all of our troops on border patrol, make gay marriage a part of the bill of rights, etc etc etc. We just have to get enough people to agree to do so. People aren't agreeing to do so, so we are letting it happen.

Look, the constitution was not meant to be a static document. It was designed to grow with the times, and be open to interpretation to fit society's needs. I don't agree with everything that's happening, but we're not a group of doddering fools being led around blindly. You see polls on how many of us can name all of our states, or our presidents, or how many can recite the preamble of the constitution, and it looks like we're retarded. But A) those polls are taken from a limited group in a limited area, and B) I'd bet I could walk up to any British person, ask them to recite their equivalent of the constitution (forgive me if I don't know what it's called) and they'd fall flat on their face trying to remember. I'd say the same is true of any modern country and its citizens. The US just gets talked about more.

[pathfinder]

This is nothing new the U.S had a lot of the same problems in the 19th century and early 20th.

on the constitution a lot of people don't remember their civics course

I suggest you watch Freedom to Fascism or Why we fight they are a tad biased though

Archon I'd love to see you asking the English to recite the Magna Carta

[The GrimSqueaker]

In this wonderful information age, such rote learning isn't required. We may always look up the relevant information. However, many people even fail to do that.

The Magna Carta is also a staple for most democracies and thus if the English are required to recite it (in the original Latin?) so should the Americans. 

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

In this wonderful information age, such rote learning isn't required. We may always look up the relevant information. However, many people even fail to do that.

The Magna Carta is also a staple for most democracies and thus if the English are required to recite it (in the original Latin?) so should the Americans. 

That's the point. I'm not requiring anyone to recite the Magna Carta. Why must Americans be held to this high standard, when no one else is? It's very hypocritical.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Which is why in the OP the request was for people to read the documents in question. The idea that someone already know the entire subject matter by rote is a mutation of the original request made by those replying.

[Shizukanashi]

First off I 100% agree with everything Deathklaat and Archon Yggdrisil said.  Please consider everything they said included here in my post as well.  Right at the top. 

Yes the US has some pretty silly stuff and ideas going on, but its not as malicious as you make it out to be, and somebody thought it was a good idea and it was voted on, maybe not by me, but at least by somebody I voted for (Or against, but you can't please everybody at the same time)  "No Child Left Behind" for example, awesome idea with great intentions, until you put it in practice and all the flaws come out.  Now its kinda the laughing stock of education reform.

What someone not from the US, and just dabling in our constitiontion doesn't see is the big picture.  For Example, We have 3 branches of government, all with a suposedly equal say in how things are run.  The Constitution was writen by the Legislative Branch years ago, but its the job of the Judicial Branch to interpret and enforce the constitution, or any laws or rights for that matter.  Thats why you have stuff like Roe V. Wade that establish laws and precidence, because the Courts decide where the line is. 

To put this in simpiler terms for all the 40kers listening.  Congress is GW.  They give us RAW.  The Supreme court is 40konline.  They give us RAI.  The two vary.

I admit I have not watched even half your video mainy because I have a life and am both unable and unwilling to

Set aside 7 hours and listen to the lecture.

Especially one given by someone whos OPINION varies a great deal from my own.

The point is this Micheal guy is not the supreme court and his interpretations and returic vary greatly from ones I and my fellow Americans might have.  He is taking fact and streatching it into fiction and it fooled you.

Don't you have cars in Sweden?  Tell me do those cars have licenses?  What about your money?  Is it not legal tender, backed by the government or are you guys still trading sheep for chickens in Sweden? 

As for the primate leading our nation.  I hate Bush.  I feel a great deal of my rights have been violated while he has been in office.  So to an extent your right, and its not just Bush.  Its the Buracracy or corrupt government.  Lots of people feel this way, and protests and rallies go on everyday.  Unfortunantly they fall on deaf ears.  See the great thing about America is its government for the people by the people.  Its slowly changing but right now there are more ignorant people in the US who think Bush is the second coming of Christ, than there are sain people who know better.  Until we in the know can sway the zombies to see it our way, thats the way its going to be.  You just can't please all of the people all of the time.  They have the right to like him as much as I have the right to hate him.  Unfortunantly right now there are more of them than there are of me.

Lastly Ramus, you can claim all you want that this is not an attack, but your first sentance says

Ok, so from posting here recently it has become evident that a lot of you US-based members of our Community have absolute no clue as to what your nation is doing.

I did some extra highlighting but the basic statement you made is "You have no clue!"  I do, a lot of us do.  Yeah we get it the rest of the world hates us, mostly because of Cowboys like Bush yelling "Yippy-Kayah" and riding bombs.  I am a world traveler and I have seen first hand how most of the world sees us as the spoiled bratty child of the world and to a great extent I agree.  Its our Imperialistic Government.  I agree we need to seriously change our policies, and hopefully our image in the rest of the world, but again not everybody wants that.  Not everybody is as well traveled as I am and gets the chance to take the blinders off and look at the US from the outside and the inside as well.

Maybe you didn't mean to come off quit so negatively, but I totally agree with everyone else that you came off with this "aire of superiority" that I absolutely can not stand.  Where persons in the US are blinded by there perspective so is the rest of the world blinded by theirs.  This is really just another foreigner with another "OMG, 3y3 h8 8u5h!"  It especially saddens me that its coming from a moderator, nay an administrator.  If I was an admin a post like your initial one would earn you a little green dot by your name. 

Comparing my government to 40k has a newfound meaning here.  Just like the US leadership is leading a great nation into the ground, so to are suposedly fair minded leaders, making a great website, a sorry state. 

[Rasmus]

I am very pleased thats this has sparked some debate, as it might mean that a few more take the time to sit down and read or watch this thing. Anything to enhance your information-levels I appreciate.
As for the more or less constructive critique I feel it is more an accusation of your own system, its interpretation and its ways, and as such I shall not bother to try to respond to it. The information is all out there, this is just a small step to get some of you started.

If you feel that you live in a land of ample freedom, where no liberties gets crushed or violated even on the occasional rare occasion, obviously you will not be enriched by this thread. Please don't waste your precious time on my account.
However, for those who feel that there might be something to this - watch the lecture. It is easier than to read the constitution, if you are not used to that sort of thing, and you might get a few interesting pointers on where to proceed.
Yes, Mike is a libertarian, and no, he is not the absolute authority on the issue, but that's just the point. He is not telling you how it is, he is telling you his interpretation, and telling you to go look it up for yourself. If you can't do that then you are still being lead around.
I watched the 7 hours, did some quick searches as to who Mike was, and then set about looking up some of the points that he made. Some were hazy at best, others he had toned down (or the situation has gotten worse since he made the lecture) as the current state of the matter was far worse. That is the point of the subject - look it up for yourself, don't rely on any single source, and never ever trust what you are being told. Since the matter is up for your own scrutiny take that opportunity to actually look into it yourself, make up your own mind rather than to let someone else do it for you.

If you don't want to I am not going to force you, far from it. However, if you want to make up your own mind this is one way to get started.

Glad you all enjoyed.

[Seer Fox]

If you buy a  plot of land and want to CUT everything down, go for it, however if you want to burn all the trees down because its quicker, one you would need a Permit in MOST states because the threat of a forest fire and/or safety of others, and two you would USUALLY need the local fire commissioner watching and standing by and helping or doing the deed.

Which would be walking all over your freedom, wouldn't it? It's your land, they're your trees, you don't need anyone elses permission to burn them because you own them.

Of course, you are correct that you need a permit nowadays, because it ISN'T your land. You are renting your land from the government who owns it, and so you need permission. Which means you own sweet F.A, my friend. As the video states, the only State left where you can own land for yourself is Texas. Good for them. THEY can set fire to their houses all they want, provided they went off to get that lodial (sp?) title.

Are we grasping this concept yet?

Ciat,
Seer Fox

[Rasmus]

Alodial Title Fox. It is an old term but as you said, the only place you can get it in the US is in Texas, and that is being locked off.

[Archon_Yggdrisil]

That's because in texas, people live so far apart that burning down your house would present no danger to anyone else.

It's for public safety.  By excersising your "right" to do what you what you want with your property by setting it ablaze, you infringe on another's right to be safe and to keep their property safe.

This does not mean that you're "renting" your property. It just means that the government will be there to prevent you from being a jackass.

[Rasmus]

This does not mean that you're "renting" your property.

  But you are renting the land. You can own the house, but you are just renting the land it is on. You can buy properly, but not land. That is the difference here.

[Jehan-Reznor]

well in my own country you can own land but you cannot do everything with it.

I am quit anti-bush but Rasmus you make vague statements and tell us to look elsewhere for answers, please back up your claims with some example and proof, do not point us to blogs and information sources without a link.

anyway it is no secret that the US goverment has lied time and time again to its people and enforced laws under false pretences. But there is no goverment on this world that does not lie to its own people.
The only thing is that the US goverment has tried to influence world politics so many times, just to see it backfire most of the times.