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Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 09:09:45 PM »
i have a small gut feeling that dropping the warlock+destructor, 1 striking scorpion (8 is a solid squad size) and dropping the mandiblasters on the autarch to save 61pts is a very important choice. if you were putting the avengers in a wave serpent.

then, alternatively, if you dropped the 9th scorpion, you could use the 16pts to give your autarch a fusion gun, leaving 6pts left. and since your list is already 6pts under par, this gives you 12pts to use, why not give the farseer runes of witnessing? or if you aren't going to put an IC in the 6th space in the falcon, make the dire avengers a squad of 6.

hope you find that useful.

sorry not following you on the first part, what do i need 61 points for? what is your suggestion here

Offline enlg

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 10:00:27 PM »
oh sorry, I meant that with those 61pts, you could have gotten 5 more dire avengers to make your squad a unit of ten, although since they are now mounted in a falcon, they could not have 10 dire avengers fit inside their transport.

although if you replaced the falcon with a wave serpent (maybe with TL-brightlances?) you could have a much stronger, larger troops unit there. personally I'd like that switch

Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 12:23:45 AM »
Little update Im thinking of doing, making my second guardian squad with no warlock run fusion guns and use them as a minor AT unit instead of anti-infantry. It doesnt repace running fire dragons, but atleast it gives me 2 meltas. Maybe considering dropping mandiblasters on autarch and running a fusion gun on him as well and putting him with the guardians to have 3 meltas.

Farseer - doom, fortune, SS, ROWarding: 145
Autarch - mandiblasters, power weapon: 90

Striking scorpions 9 – exarch, scorpion claw: 171
-wave serpent – TL shuriken cannon, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 + 1 – warlock, 2x flamer, destructor: 127
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x Fusion gun: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Dire avengers 5
-Falcon – EML, SS, Holofields: 180

Fire prism – 115
Fire prism - 115

Total: 1495

Offline Partninja

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2009, 12:53:33 AM »
I wouldn't suggest giving the Guardian squad 2 Fusion guns and/or attaching the Autarch to them with a Fusion gun. I would focus more on getting a warlock with flamer into the squad first. An Autarch has a nice WS and a decent amount of attacks but he is still S3. He will need Doom to be effective and thus should stay with the Scorpion/Farseer squad. Dropping the Falcon for a BL Serpent should be enough points to get that Warlock in the 2nd Guardian squad. You could drop one Scorpion if needed to get some extra points as the squad will still be 10 strong with a good leadership.

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 07:41:58 AM »
I too don't favour the Fusion Gun approach with the Storm Guardians, they are just not going to hit consistently, and this is a big problem.

Even if you cannot afford the Warlock, I would still stick with dual Flamers on the second squad of Storm Guardians, since this will be sufficient against a significant number of units in my view.

If you want to give the Autarch a Fusion Gun you could, since he could always take a pot shot at a tank when necessary, or separate himself from the Striking Scorpions to do so if it is essential that a tank is destroyed, but ultimately if you want to take two HQs and the DAVU at this level of points, and maintain more than two scoring units, you have to have a compromise somewhere, and, in this list, it is your anti-tank options which are compromised, and trying to make little changes to compensate for this could actually end up making your list less effective in the areas where it is strong.  I really think you are better off leaving it alone for the moment.

I hope that helps.
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Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 03:37:09 PM »
I too don't favour the Fusion Gun approach with the Storm Guardians, they are just not going to hit consistently, and this is a big problem.

Even if you cannot afford the Warlock, I would still stick with dual Flamers on the second squad of Storm Guardians, since this will be sufficient against a significant number of units in my view.

If you want to give the Autarch a Fusion Gun you could, since he could always take a pot shot at a tank when necessary, or separate himself from the Striking Scorpions to do so if it is essential that a tank is destroyed, but ultimately if you want to take two HQs and the DAVU at this level of points, and maintain more than two scoring units, you have to have a compromise somewhere, and, in this list, it is your anti-tank options which are compromised, and trying to make little changes to compensate for this could actually end up making your list less effective in the areas where it is strong.  I really think you are better off leaving it alone for the moment.

I hope that helps.

yea i guess ill keep them at their role of infantry, the BS3 does hinder their abilities.

This list does have more AT than my hybrid list im currently running though, so I wouldnt say this list is hindered on AT.

comparatively:

Hybrid             Mech
BL: 2               TL BL: 2
EML: 2             EML: 1
Fire Dragons    Pulse laser
Avatar             Fire Prism x 2

Hybrid: 4 S8 weapons, 6 Melta (including avatar) - 4 Ranged AT, 2 need to be close
Mech: 4 S8 weapons (2 TL, and one is heavy 2), 2 S9 (or 1 S10 TL) - 6 Ranged AT

Relatively close I suppose, other than mech can stay at a distance and shoot more

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 03:46:56 PM »
The problem I have with your comparison is that Fire Dragons are much better than one Pulse Laser, and Fire Prisms do not generally count as an anti-tank unit in my view, hence why I feel your mixed list is much stronger in terms of its anti-tank potential.
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Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 03:51:12 PM »
The problem I have with your comparison is that Fire Dragons are much better than one Pulse Laser, and Fire Prisms do not generally count as an anti-tank unit in my view, hence why I feel your mixed list is much stronger in terms of its anti-tank potential.

oh yea im not comparing fire dragons to a pulse laser, the dragons are definatly better, its just you need to get firedragons 6" from the tank to do damage, a falcon can sit across the board. and I think the fire prism can be used as AT, i mean its S10, AP1 and TL so you can reroll the scatter

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2009, 04:03:13 PM »
Fire Prisms are not that reliable against a lot of vehicles, because the chances of scattering are quite high, and a lot of vehicle hulls can easily be missed by the central hole of the template as a result, making the Fire Prism an unreliable tank hunter in my view.  If it hits, I agree that it can be very destructive, but that if is rather too big for my liking.
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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 08:51:18 AM »
Fire prisms are much better than you think.
Have a look here for a breakdown of the chance of hitting with a blast weapon:

http://www.small.furryspider.com/?p=32

Against a landraider you have a 61% chance of getting within 2" of your target (which is good enough to hit it). This gives you an 85% chance of hitting one with a twin linked prism. While not as good against smaller tanks (2" will miss at some angles) it is still quite respectable.

Yes firedragons are better at killing a single tank, but they won't get to kill another, unless your opponent is an idiot. Anything from lasguns upwards will kill them. If you are playing kill points or your opponent has more than one nasty tank, this is not a tradeoff you can afford. In addition, the earliest strike is turn 2, whereas the prism can hit targets from turn 1 while remaining out or range of most return fire.

I think the list has quite reasonable levels of anti tank. The only risk is the storm guardians have a reasonable chance of failing to hit(25%) and then getting butchered for no gain. If you want more guaranteed anti tank in this squad, you would need to move the warlock from the other squad and give him a singing spear (this would drop the chances of failing to do damage against av12 from 30% to 16.5%). But this would reduce the impact of your flamer squad. I would try your list out and see how it goes.

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 11:09:45 AM »
Fire prisms are much better than you think.

I don't think there is much of a status quo on this issue, since I've seen statistics used to support both sides of the argument to some effect.

Quote
Against a landraider you have a 61% chance of getting within 2" of your target (which is good enough to hit it). This gives you an 85% chance of hitting one with a twin linked prism. While not as good against smaller tanks (2" will miss at some angles) it is still quite respectable.

Against larger vehicles, the chances of hitting the hull are better, but against most regular vehicles, I still don't feel that they are all that good, no matter what the statistics may or may not say, and as I indicated above, I've seen them used to portray both sides of the argument.

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Yes firedragons are better at killing a single tank, but they won't get to kill another, unless your opponent is an idiot.

Not always the case in my experience.  There are ways to keep Fire Dragons alive, so that they can destroy multiple tanks.

Quote
Anything from lasguns upwards will kill them.

No, anything from Lasguns upwards could, or is likely to (depending on the weapon in question and BS of the firing squad), kill them, but this assumes that there are not other targets which need to be taken care of first, and assumes that line of sight has not been blocked by Wave Serpents, or that other Eldar units haven't wiped out or tied up the supporting infantry which would otherwise be shooting at the Fire Dragons.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 11:11:34 AM by Irisado »
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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 12:31:24 PM »

Against larger vehicles, the chances of hitting the hull are better, but against most regular vehicles, I still don't feel that they are all that good, no matter what the statistics may or may not say, and as I indicated above, I've seen them used to portray both sides of the argument.
You should not let how you feel influence how effective a tank is or is not. The smallest standard "tank" is the rhino and that is (IIRC) a bit less than 4" wide and more than 4" long. Yes you are worse off than just on BS, but not by as much as most people think. The reason I knocked that chart up was because so many people said blast weapons are rubbish without looking at how far they have to scatter to miss, not just failing to roll a hit on the scatter dice.

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Not always the case in my experience.  There are ways to keep Fire Dragons alive, so that they can destroy multiple tanks.
This is a serious comment- not a flippant one: please let me know what you do. I know of no way of stopping them from dying- a good opponent always takes mine out and I would have to be very unluckly to leave more than 1 model alive after my turn when an opponent has deployed his.
Quote
Quote
Anything from lasguns upwards will kill them.

No, anything from Lasguns upwards could, or is likely to (depending on the weapon in question and BS of the firing squad), kill them, but this assumes that there are not other targets which need to be taken care of first, and assumes that line of sight has not been blocked by Wave Serpents, or that other Eldar units haven't wiped out or tied up the supporting infantry which would otherwise be shooting at the Fire Dragons.
I find I cannot block them with a serpent because now you can see under or around or over tanks. I cannot really think of any higher priority targets in an eldar list (maybe banshees if they are well placed- but I would not want to sacrifice them either). At close range 10 lasgun armed standard IG will kill 2-3 dragons, 10 marines with bolters will kill 4-5. As you can only have 6 models, a single enemy unit can cripple them with just basic guns, add in a special weapon and you have dragon paste.

Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 02:49:11 PM »
Edited from other posts:

Final list update:

Farseer - doom, fortune, SS, ROWarding: 145
Autarch - mandiblasters, power weapon: 90

Striking scorpions 9 – exarch, scorpion claw: 171
-wave serpent – TL shuriken cannon, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 + 1 – warlock, 2x flamer, destructor: 127
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x flamer: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Dire avengers 5: 60
-Falcon – EML, SS, Holofields: 180

Fire prism – 115
Fire prism - 115

Total: 1495

moc-score pending...

Bear with me, this one is 3 down the list.... OK..
Lists decent overall, so I am thinking that it should do OK.. but if you add a write up on its usage, and tactics, that would help me and others.

1.. Anti-tank potential Average 0.6; as most units have some AT Potential; but there is not a whole lot of dedicated AT (2 BL’s is not great)…
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Average 0.6; as again there is no Dedicated A-MEQ yet there are some decent template options, combo’s, etc…
3.. Anti-Horde potential Good 0.8; the pie plates, Flamers, Doom… and some mass shooting options all add up well in this area.
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Above Average 0.7; as there is a decent mix of shooting for short and long range; but no real Mid range shooting.
5.. Assault potential Average 0.6; as the Scorpions and Characters are decent; but one dedicated assault unit is not great…
6.. Scoring Units / point level Good 0.8;  as the units are well protected and you have 3 of them at this points level, I feel that scoring should not be a huge issue in MO games,… and you are not bogged down in KP’s, so you should do well there too.
7.. Durability or Resilience Good 0.8; Fully Mech is resilient… your playstyle indicates that you only exit vehicles when its advantageous and you can get away clean… so make sure that you stick to your plan.
8.. Flexability Above Average 0.7; The new IG can give you issues as can Dark Eldar or anything that packs a lot of AT to go with its assault potential… or that can mess up your reserve options… This is not always done, so the list should do well enough.
9.. Mission Capabiliy Very Good 0.9; I see no big issues with this list..
10. Dynamics and/or Theme Good 0.8; Its Mech Reserve obviously, and it looks quite functional and synergetic right off the bat… your playstyle will make the difference for it to win or loose…

Rating = 7.3/10 I see this a great Local list that will not get boring, nor will it loose you friends. I might do OK in a tournie; but its more on the fun side than the really competitive side…. Nice and refreshing to see some of the unique features like the Scorps with alternate load out… but the DAVU Falcon, seams like a bit of a Hail Mary for when things are going poorly…. I am not a fan of Naked Prisms… and a smart opponent will shake your vehicles quickly, easily bagging those two items…..

Cheers

« Last Edit: December 1, 2009, 08:28:02 AM by moc065 »
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Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 05:13:10 PM »
Edited from other posts:

Final list update:

Farseer - doom, fortune, SS, ROWarding: 145
Autarch - mandiblasters, power weapon: 90

Striking scorpions 9 – exarch, scorpion claw: 171
-wave serpent – TL shuriken cannon, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 + 1 – warlock, 2x flamer, destructor: 127
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x flamer: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Dire avengers 5: 60
-Falcon – EML, SS, Holofields: 180

Fire prism – 115
Fire prism - 115

Total: 1495

moc-score pending...

Bear with me, this one is 3 down the list.... OK..
Lists decent overall, so I am thinking that it should do OK.. but if you add a write up on its usage, and tactics, that would help me and others.

Cheers


here is my proposed tactics for the list:

Running an autarch gives me a large advantage when choosing to go second or forced to go second and putting everything in reserves to deny my opponent something to shoot at and coming in on 3+ on turn 2, and 2+ from then on out if I so chose to add the +1 modifier.

My farseer AND autarch will be running in the scorpion transport. The farseer will fortune their transport or any transport I plan on moving flat out to give me a re-rolled 4+, but preferably their own transport.

The autarch is running mandiblasters instead of a fusion gun because of the squad im putting him in, id prefer the +1A over the melta gun and taking a single pot shot which may or may not ever happen, only playing will determine that.

The scorpions are my biggest threat and I will be protecting this unit until ive shot down his army some and I can safely get out and assault and do some damage.

I prefer storm guardians to dire avengers for price and the fact templates are great, ignores cover, automatically hits, and its a strong weapon. I couldnt aford a 2nd warlock (there simply was no points to move around), so my second squad will likely stay in their transport longer and be used more for scoring purposes and only get out if they can kill what their after.

The 5 dire avengers are obviously ment to never get out, and its a hard scoring unit. Taking the EML allows me to move 12" and still fire a plasma shot.

Fire prisms are naked because there simply is no points to give them holofields.

Overall strategy is a reserve/mech strategy. If im placed in the position I can choose to go second and put everything in reserves, or choose to go first and attack quickly, getting into assault range on turn 2. I can also choose to sit at the back of the board and shoot the army down while they slug it across the field before engaging on my terms as the Eldar tanks are rather strong (compared to rhinos and the like). The fire prisms will typically stay as far away from the fight as possible and when needed use the TL S10 or S6 blasts. Generally I plan on keeping things in their tanks for as long as possible, until Im forced to get out, or the enemy is close enough to engage, as several rounds of shooting at them could prove quite effective.

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 05:54:51 PM »
You should not let how you feel influence how effective a tank is or is not.

The use of 'feel' is just an approximate synonym for 'believe' or 'think' in this instance, so don't read too much into that  :).

Quote
The smallest standard "tank" is the rhino and that is (IIRC) a bit less than 4" wide and more than 4" long. Yes you are worse off than just on BS, but not by as much as most people think. The reason I knocked that chart up was because so many people said blast weapons are rubbish without looking at how far they have to scatter to miss, not just failing to roll a hit on the scatter dice.

I'm not saying they are as bad as some players may argue, but my point is that the Fire Prism is unreliable.  In some games it may well perform very well, but in other games, it could perform very badly, so it is much less consistent than say a pair of Wraithlords, each armed with an EML and Brightlance, although it is potentially more destructive.  Personally, I prefer to be more certain of hitting, which is why I take Wraithlords for my long ranged anti-tank, but others may be more willing to gamble.

Quote
This is a serious comment- not a flippant one: please let me know what you do. I know of no way of stopping them from dying- a good opponent always takes mine out and I would have to be very unluckly to leave more than 1 model alive after my turn when an opponent has deployed his.

It's quite a lengthy discourse, which revolves around pressurising an opponent's army on two fronts and with multiple units, so I think it's probably better to talk about this via PM, so feel free to send me one if you would like to know more.

Quote
I find I cannot block them with a serpent because now you can see under or around or over tanks.

On the standard GW flying stands, I cannot see underneath my Wave Serpents, and vice-versa for my opponent, so they make rather good line of sight blockers for me.  Do you use taller flying stands?

Quote
At close range 10 lasgun armed standard IG will kill 2-3 dragons, 10 marines with bolters will kill 4-5. As you can only have 6 models, a single enemy unit can cripple them with just basic guns, add in a special weapon and you have dragon paste.

Against Imperial Guard, it's going to be more difficult, but I haven't faced them in fifth edition, so I don't have first hand experience of how I would deal with that.  Against Marines, however, I've found ways around this problem, but again I'll go into more detail via PM, as I don't want to turn this thread into a Fire Dragon debate.

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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2009, 07:38:25 PM »
Firstly a quick note to mafty:
I noticed that you have 5 points spare. You can give the scorpion exarch a biting blade as well as the claw. It costs you nothing, and gives you improved anti tank performance and against things with inv saves (daemons etc).
Alternatively, the warlock could take a singing spear, but this is a trade off- the biting blade is pure gain.



You should not let how you feel influence how effective a tank is or is not.

The use of 'feel' is just an approximate synonym for 'believe' or 'think' in this instance, so don't read too much into that  :).

Quote
The smallest standard "tank" is the rhino and that is (IIRC) a bit less than 4" wide and more than 4" long. Yes you are worse off than just on BS, but not by as much as most people think. The reason I knocked that chart up was because so many people said blast weapons are rubbish without looking at how far they have to scatter to miss, not just failing to roll a hit on the scatter dice.

I'm not saying they are as bad as some players may argue, but my point is that the Fire Prism is unreliable.  In some games it may well perform very well, but in other games, it could perform very badly, so it is much less consistent than say a pair of Wraithlords, each armed with an EML and Brightlance, although it is potentially more destructive.  Personally, I prefer to be more certain of hitting, which is why I take Wraithlords for my long ranged anti-tank, but others may be more willing to gamble.
Yes, wraithlords are about as reliable as you can get in terms of anti-tank, they are just not mobile enough for my armies.

Quote
Quote
This is a serious comment- not a flippant one: please let me know what you do. I know of no way of stopping them from dying- a good opponent always takes mine out and I would have to be very unluckly to leave more than 1 model alive after my turn when an opponent has deployed his.

It's quite a lengthy discourse, which revolves around pressurising an opponent's army on two fronts and with multiple units, so I think it's probably better to talk about this via PM, so feel free to send me one if you would like to know more.
that is ok, I understand what you mean. I find this sort of thing works best against small elite armies but is much trickier against hordes.
Quote

Quote
I find I cannot block them with a serpent because now you can see under or around or over tanks.

On the standard GW flying stands, I cannot see underneath my Wave Serpents, and vice-versa for my opponent, so they make rather good line of sight blockers for me.  Do you use taller flying stands?
Maybe I do need shorter flying stands. Half the Tau models kneel down so they can see under my tanks!

Quote
Quote
At close range 10 lasgun armed standard IG will kill 2-3 dragons, 10 marines with bolters will kill 4-5. As you can only have 6 models, a single enemy unit can cripple them with just basic guns, add in a special weapon and you have dragon paste.

Against Imperial Guard, it's going to be more difficult, but I haven't faced them in fifth edition, so I don't have first hand experience of how I would deal with that.  Against Marines, however, I've found ways around this problem, but again I'll go into more detail via PM, as I don't want to turn this thread into a Fire Dragon debate.
Trust me, IG have some nasty stuff against eldar and it is hard to kill enough of them to avoid a draw.

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2009, 08:21:11 PM »
Firstly a quick note to mafty:
I noticed that you have 5 points spare. You can give the scorpion exarch a biting blade as well as the claw. It costs you nothing, and gives you improved anti tank performance and against things with inv saves (daemons etc).
Alternatively, the warlock could take a singing spear, but this is a trade off- the biting blade is pure gain.


I could take it, but id never use it. it doesnt benefit me against things with invulnerables moreso than the power fist.....the powerfist is guaranteed to hit at S6, the bitting blade MAY hit at S5-S8 (base 2 attacks, +1 mandi, +1 charge) depending how many hits get through. So I dont see how it benefits against things with invul's as the powerfist makes you make one, and the chances of striking at S6 or higher is a chance, whereas the fist WILL strike at S6. And they both get the same amount of attacks.

Against tanks that didnt move I suppose this means I have an automatic 4 hits at S8 though.......which would be nice lol. Unless im reading into the rules wrong.

Offline Ail-Shan

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2009, 09:32:03 PM »
Striking at I6 certainly helps against things like Genestealers or mobs of gaunts/orks/guardsmen as compared to I1 though. And if you argue "but I can just use the chain sword then," the chain sword doesn't get an extra attack and so will swing as much as the blade, but ALWAYS at lower strength. So, if you have nothing else to spend your remaining points on, I don't see why you wouldn't take it.
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #38 on: December 1, 2009, 08:29:24 AM »
Rating done (above)...

I like the list in some ways... as its unique; but its more of a FUN list than anything really competitive... Locally though, it would be one of the ruling lists (in my area).

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Offline mafty

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Re: 1500 mech
« Reply #39 on: December 1, 2009, 11:15:12 AM »
Rating done (above)...

I like the list in some ways... as its unique; but its more of a FUN list than anything really competitive... Locally though, it would be one of the ruling lists (in my area).

Cheers

thanks Moc, if you have any suggestions (i realize you are busy right now) that would definatly help. as per the review it seems my AT and AMEQ is a touch weak, so maybe some thoughts in that area

 


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