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Offline Nileez

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First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« on: March 5, 2009, 02:21:16 PM »
Here is my first attempt at building a list.  I want this to be an all-comers list, fun enough and not too over-powered for a casual game, but with enough bite to survive high level tournament matches.

HQ - 13.30%
(130)  Autarch, Jet bike, Laser lance, Mandiblasters
(135)  Farseer, Runes of warding, Spirit stones, Doom, Guide

Elite - 32.71%
(180)  10 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(182)  10 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones

Troops - 45.61%
(177)  10 Avengers, Exarch, PW and SS, Defend, Bladestorm
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(167)  10 Avengers, Exarch, Dual catapults, Bladestorm, Defend
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(130)  10 Storm Gaurdians, 2 flamers, Warlock, Destructor
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones

FA - 8.38%
(167)  4 Shining Spears, Exarch, Star lance

1993 points, 13 KPs, 3 scoring units

Strategy
The point of this army is to try to roll over the enemy, or at least generate enough pressure to keep him from splitting off part of his force to go objective hunting.  Everything starts off in their respective transport with the Farseer riding with with the dual-cata DAs.
Avengers with Defend:  These guys, along with the other avengers, are used aggressively to spearhead assaults.  This unit gets as close as possible to the opponents objective and sends a guided bladestorm against the doomed opponent.  This unit is resilient enough to withstand the initial counter assault while the banshees come in for the kill.
Farseer and Avengers with Bladestorm:  This unit works to provided supporting fire for the other avengers while the farseer throw out guide and doom.  This unit tries to position itself a little behind the other avengers so that the other unit can meet the opponent's assault.
Dragons:  These guys help take down the heavy infantry/MCs.  They are probably over-priced and not tournament effective, but the look on peoples faces when 10 dragons get near their tanks/dreads/monoliths is priceless!
Banshees:  In terms of mini hammer-and-anvil, the defend avengers are the anvil, and these girls are the hammer.  They help in assault/counter assault.
Autarch Shining Spears:  These guys go and pick off any squad that my opponent thinks to send into my deployment zone to snatch my objective.  They are the fisrt thing the opponent meets when he breaks through my front line.  If the enemy is able to exploit a hole or weakpoint in my line, the spears and autarch make sure he can't capitalize on it.  These guys try to stay away from the heavy fighting and pick off stragglers.
Stormies:  Their main purpose is anti-GEQ and hordes.  They can also fulfill supplementary roles: Warlock can aid downing tanks, can help tarpit/assault.  They fill in where needed.

Feel free to rip this list apart (with constructive criticism!) as any help and/or tips are greatly appreciated.

-EDIT:  fixed some math errors-
List v1.4
« Last Edit: March 6, 2009, 06:07:03 PM by Nileez »

Offline moc065

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #1 on: March 5, 2009, 02:46:25 PM »
OK, here goes... and my stuff is in red.

HQ - 11.52%
(092)  Autarch, Shuriken catapult, Power weapon, Mandiblasters
Good enough, Yriel is better suited to this list though.
(138)  Farseer, Singing spear, Runes of warding, Spirit stones, Doom, Guide
No spear requried... the rest is doable and points effective.

Elite - 29.91%
(185)  10 Fire Dragons, Exarch, DBF, Crack shot
You only need 6-8 of these ever.. so trim the fat. The config is fine; but you can go without Crackshot if you need to save the 5 points
(115)  Wave serpent, TL shuricannons, Spirit stones
Its 110pts so re-do the math... TL-BL's are better here though as it should not be rushing into enemy territory.
(182)  10 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner
Tight and good... Scorpions work just as well and have more resilience... so consider the swap later down the road... I use the Banshees still and they rock vs SM crap.
(115)  Wave serpent, TL shuricannons, Spirit stones
Math, its 110pts. and its fine as is...

Troops - 40.68%
(177)  10 Avengers, Exarch, PW and SS, Defend, Bladestorm
Too much in one place... but it can work well, so I will look for other places to save cost.
(115)  Wave serpent, TL shuricannons, Spirit stones
Again with the math, 110... but you might consider EML's or BL as they have anti-tank options that DA don't
(152)  10 Avengers, Exarch, Dual catapults, Bladestorm
OK and as second unit this is appropriate.
(115)  Wave serpent, TL shuricannons, Spirit stones
Math, and again eml or BL to be considered.
(138)  10 Storm Gaurdians, 2 flamers, Warlock, Singing spear, Destructor
Math... drop the Destructor to Embolden and its 125pts... more resilient too.
(127) 10 Stormies, 2 fusion guns, Destructor Warlock is also an option if you think you need the heavy flamer... ...

(115)  Wave serpent, TL shuricannons, Spirit stones
Math... eml and BL thing again too.

HS - 17.89%
(207)  5 Reapers, Exarch, Fast shot
Just not dompetitive although they are fun ... so drop them for smaller games or more competitive games adding the BL's and EML's to fill the gap.
(150)  Falcon, Holo-fields
Add a secondary weapon (you have to) and the eml wroks well... then give it Stones as well. and its rocks... This would also allow you to drop the FD serpent (just run 6 of them in here) to get more point freed up...

1996 points, 8 KPs 14KP's as serpents count too, 3 scoring units

Strategy
The point of this army is to try to roll over the enemy, or at least generate enough pressure to keep him from splitting off part of his force to go objective hunting.  Everything starts off in their respective transport:  the Autarch with the Defend DAs, the Farseer with the Bladestorm DAs.
Autarch and Avengers with Defend:  These guys, along with the other avengers, are used aggressively to spearhead assaults.  This unit gets as close as possible to the opponents objective and sends a guided bladestorm against the doomed opponent.  If they can get into assault, good.  If not this unit is resilient enough to withstand the initial counter assault.
Farseer and Avengers with Bladestorm:  This unit works to provided supporting fire for the other avengers while the farseer throw out guide and doom.  These guys alternate turns bladestorming with the others to keep a constant 30 guided, doomed shuriken shots in the air.  This unit trys to position itself a little behind the other avengers so that the other unit can meet the opponent's assault.
Dragons:  These guys go tank/MEQ hunting, and the exarch is equipped to take out lightly armored troops hugging cover.  They clear out the big-guns in the opponents army so the avengers can survive that much longer.
Banshees:  In terms of mini hammer-and-anvil, the defend avengers are the anvil, and these girls are the hammer.  They help the autarch's squad in assault/counter assault.
Reapers:  These guys use their control of fire lanes to cuase my opponent to move his troops where I want them to go and not where HE wants them to go.  They can also be split off to stop a small force if my opponent thinks he can send a force to take the objective in my deployment zone.  They also aid with anti-MEQ.  The falcon is used as a transport and to block enemy LOS than it is used as a gun-boat.
Stormies:  Their main purpose is anti-GEQ and hordes.  They can also fulfill supplementary roles: Warlock can aid downing tanks, can help tarpit/assault, can help reapers keep enemies from reaching my deployment zone.  They fill in where needed.

Fisrt Question:  Should I swap out the falcon for a serpent with TL bright lances and another sotrmie?
Second (and third I guess) question:  When should I put the army in reserve?  Should I try to get first or second turn?
No, I made suggestions above and thats all that is needed... 3 scoring is plenty if you use them right.
Go for second turn if you can (especially vs Drop Pods, etc...).. then reserve after viewing the enemies set-up and only if you can't take his first round of shooting etc... I reserve about 60% of the time.. and not always all of the army (you can stillhide somethings well enough) ...

If you need more comments just ask..

CaHG
« Last Edit: March 5, 2009, 02:48:26 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Nileez

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #2 on: March 5, 2009, 03:37:55 PM »
To think I'm actually a math major...  Fixed some of the math errors, but since I don't have my dex right now there still might be some lurking around.

If I drop the Reapers and 4 Dragons would I still have enough power to take down (chaos) Space Marines?
Should I still keep the spear on the warlock?  Plus will I still be able to hunt hordes with only two templates?  Though I do see how embolden will help with the tarpit/counter assault role.

Took your suggestions, gave the serpents BLs, the falcon a EML, adjusted squad sizes, and dropped reapers for shining spears.  Are the spears able to hold up in high level tournaments, or are they a 'for fun' choice like the reapers?
« Last Edit: March 5, 2009, 07:45:42 PM by Nileez »

Offline Psychopathologist

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #3 on: March 5, 2009, 08:28:30 PM »
Well i plan to play a mech. biel-tan list also. imo shining spears are too expensive and fragile. I would drop them for some warp spiders which should be mobile enough to keep up with your army and are quite good against MEQs or even the rear armour of light tanks. For 237 points you can get 10 inc. exarch w/ add. DS.

As for your concern with MEQs without the dark reapers and less dragons (imo dragons are too expensive, ineffective, and likely to die to hunt MEQs anyway), the warp spiders should help, as should the banshees. Avengers can also spray em with shuriken from outside rapid fire range, although your storm guardians will be fairly useless. But overall, i think you will probably be able to deal with SM.

Finally, i think that if the stormies sole purpose is to kill hordes i'd take destructor over embolden any day, it just seems far more useful. Only keep the spear if you're desperate for anti tank...but with all those BLs, dragons and even the falcon i don't think its really needed.

Offline moc065

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #4 on: March 6, 2009, 06:31:03 AM »
(092)  Autarch, Shuriken catapult, Power weapon, Mandiblasters
(135)  Farseer, Runes of warding, Spirit stones, Doom, Guide
I still think Yriel would just be better; but this is fine...
Now that you have S-Spears in the list though you might consider this.
(140) Jetbike Autarch with Laser Lance, Mandiblasters, and Fusion Gun.. as he adds a lot to that unit and the list potential... now where to get the points.


(128)  6 Fire Dragons, Exarch, DBF, Crack shot, Tank hunters
(182)  10 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
I don't find Tank Hunters is that neccesary... Serioulsy, unless you face Landraiders and/or Monoliths on a regualra basis and in groups of 2-3... its just not needed..
The Banshee Wave Serpent can be trimmed a little weapons wise to save point too (if you need them) maybe an EML or Scatters... 


(177)  10 Avengers, Exarch, PW and SS, Defend, Bladestorm
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
This I like as is.
(167)  10 Avengers, Exarch, Dual catapults, Bladestorm, Defend
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
They save a few points; but you might be able to get away without Defend as well (use the other DA to hold, and these ones to shoot... saving Bladestorm for that "WoW" shot.
(125)  10 Storm Gaurdians, 2 flamers, Warlock, Embolden
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
You forgot to put in the Warlocks Spear, and you did pay for it.. the unit works well as it is for me... but some prefer the
(127) 10 Stormies, 2 fusion, Destructor Warlock... varient; but their playstyle dependant and both work well...


(227)  5 Shining Spears, Exarch, Star lance, Withdraw
Skilled Rider is more important than the Star Lance... so get that first as you don't need to take casualties as you assault into cover. Like I mentioned.. the JB autarch add on to the list would amke this unit a much bigger threat; but remember that Spears are not for everyone... I have great success with them 85%  of the time.. but that 15% Risk factor is there, and wheni t kicks in they are near useless. (thus many don't consider them tournie worthy,, although its all dependant on how their used, etc)


(180)  Falcon, EML, Spirit stones, Holo-fields
Nice

1998 points, 13 KPs, 3 scoring units
This is a much more viable list overall, it has one less KP, more resilience, more anti-tank, more crown control if used well, and it has a much more synergetic feel to it now..... The Spears are not considered Tournie worthy, neither are Fire Dragons... but I use both and I do well with them... its all in the delivery though, so whenthey fail... it will be epic.

Strategy
The point of this army is to try to roll over the enemy, or at least generate enough pressure to keep him from splitting off part of his force to go objective hunting.  Everything starts off in their respective transport:  the Autarch with the Defend DAs, the Farseer with the Bladestorm DAs.
A coupdl turns of patient play helps set the table control.. and then get aggressive.
Autarch and Avengers with Defend:  These guys, along with the other avengers, are used aggressively to spearhead assaults.  This unit gets as close as possible to the opponents objective and sends a guided bladestorm against the doomed opponent.  If they can get into assault, good.  If not this unit is resilient enough to withstand the initial counter assault.
Farseer and Avengers with Bladestorm:  This unit works to provided supporting fire for the other avengers while the farseer throw out guide and doom.  These guys alternate turns bladestorming with the others to keep a constant 30 guided, doomed shuriken shots in the air.  This unit trys to position itself a little behind the other avengers so that the other unit can meet the opponent's assault.
Dragons:  These guys go tank, and the exarch is equipped to take out lightly armored troops hugging cover.  They clear out the big-guns in the opponents army so the avengers can survive that much longer.  They get to ride in the falcon.
There actually better for tough infantry, and AT Support for when the BL's don't quite get the job done...
Banshees:  In terms of mini hammer-and-anvil, the defend avengers are the anvil, and these girls are the hammer.  They help the autarch's squad in assault/counter assault.
Shining Spears:  These guys go and pick off any squad that my opponent thinks to send into my deployment zone to snatch my objective.  These guys try to stay away from the heavy fighting and pick off stragglers.
These need to hit hard and fast.. so as early as possible so they still have some numbers in their favour... don't be stupid with them (use the terrain to move them into possition if you can) and go for a 2-3-4 turn (earlier the better; but his something worth while) smashing assault to break the enemies back...
Stormies:  Their main purpose is anti-GEQ and hordes.  They can also fulfill supplementary roles: Warlock can aid downing tanks, can help tarpit/assault, can help reapers keep enemies from reaching my deployment zone.  They fill in where needed.

Like I said the list is getting better... I don't know what you ahve for figures or experience, or your personnal playstyle... and this list is not a "No Brainer" list... so its usage will be a huge factor in its success....

I hope this is helping you.

CaHG
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Offline A.CHAP

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #5 on: March 6, 2009, 07:08:23 AM »
"Shining Spears:  These guys go and pick off any squad that my opponent thinks to send into my deployment zone to snatch my objective.  These guys try to stay away from the heavy fighting and pick off stragglers.
These need to hit hard and fast.. so as early as possible so they still have some numbers in their favour... don't be stupid with them (use the terrain to move them into possition if you can) and go for a 2-3-4 turn (earlier the better; but his something worth while) smashing assault to break the enemies back...

CaHG[/color]
[/quote]

I have to strongly disagree here although i know popular opinion is against me. 5 strong spears squads are horribly inefficient and taking skilled rider so that you can dive into terrain amd smash units apart is like using howling banshees against orks.

They excell at countering fast moving tough enemy flankers like bikes, flying hive tyrants or fast tanks at a push. They are also useful as a countercharge unit to support mounted dire avengers.


Offline moc065

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #6 on: March 6, 2009, 07:39:51 AM »
Your welcome to dis-agree as much as you like...

  • When I say use cover to move them into possition I do not mean drive them into cover.. I mean hide behind what you can (seriously)...
  • And I most certainly mentioned that they should not be squandered.. and that they should be used vs appropriate enemy units..


If you leave them in the open to take saturation firepower, their toast; but name an Eldar unit that is not.... Serioulsy, even WG fall to enough shooting.... Each unit for its purpose, and avoid the enemies strengths.... are always rules to follow with Eldar...

Now how do you see them as being horrible ineffecient.. I run mine at 222pts, and they have plowed through multiple enemy units due to striking on my turn, stayin in CC, and then hitting again and running during the enemies turn... so that they can re-iniate CC where and when I need them too. They are still very list dependant (as I also noted)... and they do not fit into all playstyles (as I noted) and they have a risk factor that goes with them (as I noted, and that its higher than some Eldar units)... But in the right hands.. they can be very good, especially vs specific enemy units... I shouldn't mention this; but add a couple JB characters and some other sick unit(s) to garner some of the enemies attention and the Spears suddenly become priority #2, thus they hit better and more often, as he is busy with other things in your list...

CaHG
 
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Offline A.CHAP

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #7 on: March 6, 2009, 08:25:59 AM »
@moc; You may have misunderstood me a little here. Further up the thread you sugested dropping laser lance for skilled rider to assault into cover. This is what i was referring to, obviously spears have to use cover to avoid being shot.

The laser lance is essential for assasinating T4 ICs IMO.

You mention using them against appropriate enemy units and this was my main point i.e. infantry units in cover are absolutly the wrong unit for spears to attack.

I said inefficient as opposed to crap because while they can work as a main assault unit many other choices do this better.

I have a lot of experience using a 3 man unit with a laser lance for 132pts. This i find to be efficient as it will stop an outflanking unit of bikes/ flying MC in its tracks.

So while it is possible to have success ramming spears down an opponents throat IMO this is not the most efficient way to use them.

Offline moc065

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #8 on: March 6, 2009, 10:08:57 AM »
Its all list and playstyle dependant... as well as enemy...

When I see a full 10 man Devastator squad that can utterly distroy my Skimmer support, then the Spears are going to drive into them... Hes they will get to go first (as they should be in cove) but I will probably have my JB Autarch with them to lessen their resolve and give me first strike... the Spears will then clean the house; but probably not waste the entire unit without taking a casualty or two... I will not break from the combat during my turn... but in his round I will probably finish that Dev squad off, or at least make in useless prior to withdrawing to hammer another SM unit on my next round... Yes my squad will cost me about 375pts.. but they will crush a 200+ pts squad of Devs, plus at least one other decent squad while protecting the my support units...

I have SM's more often than anything else; but other opponents like DE, Orks, and CSM are also common in my area... and I find the Spear have good uses on them all.

CaHG
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Offline A.CHAP

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #9 on: March 6, 2009, 10:27:35 AM »
my squad will cost me about 375pts.. but they will crush a 200+ pts squad of Devs, plus at least one other decent squad while protecting the my support units...

CaHG

I think there are cheaper ways to do this but as you say it is dependent on the rest of the army.

The way I use spears (at 132pts) they would intercept something like a flying have tyrant (150-200pts?) or space marine bikes (200+pts?). This is more efficient than the devastator example.
The large squad also requires more support in its role while the smaller unit IS support. The footprint of the larger squad can also make it difficult to use.

Sorry to go on, work is a bit slow today.

Offline Nileez

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #10 on: March 6, 2009, 05:50:49 PM »
Incorporated more of the suggestions into the list.  I finally caved and put the autarch with a different squad.  But out of spite I filled out my dragon squad and swapped a falcon for a serpent.  Dragon's are just too fun!  I think this is the final version of my list.  I thank everyone for their comments helping me get this list finalized. 
« Last Edit: March 6, 2009, 06:09:18 PM by Nileez »

Offline moc065

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Re: First list, 2000pt Biel-Tan
« Reply #11 on: March 8, 2009, 11:00:19 AM »
Here is my first attempt at building a list.  I want this to be an all-comers list, fun enough and not too over-powered for a casual game, but with enough bite to survive high level tournament matches.

HQ - 13.30%
(130)  Autarch, Jet bike, Laser lance, Mandiblasters
(135)  Farseer, Runes of warding, Spirit stones, Doom, Guide

Elite - 32.71%
(180)  10 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(182)  10 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones

Troops - 45.61%
(177)  10 Avengers, Exarch, PW and SS, Defend, Bladestorm
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(167)  10 Avengers, Exarch, Dual catapults, Bladestorm, Defend
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones
(130)  10 Storm Gaurdians, 2 flamers, Warlock, Destructor
(145)  Wave serpent, TL bright lances, Spirit stones

FA - 8.38%
(167)  4 Shining Spears, Exarch, Star lance

1993 points, 13 KPs, 3 scoring units

Strategy
The point of this army is to try to roll over the enemy, or at least generate enough pressure to keep him from splitting off part of his force to go objective hunting.  Everything starts off in their respective transport with the Farseer riding with with the dual-cata DAs.
Avengers with Defend:  These guys, along with the other avengers, are used aggressively to spearhead assaults.  This unit gets as close as possible to the opponents objective and sends a guided bladestorm against the doomed opponent.  This unit is resilient enough to withstand the initial counter assault while the banshees come in for the kill.
Farseer and Avengers with Bladestorm:  This unit works to provided supporting fire for the other avengers while the farseer throw out guide and doom.  This unit tries to position itself a little behind the other avengers so that the other unit can meet the opponent's assault.
Dragons:  These guys help take down the heavy infantry/MCs.  They are probably over-priced and not tournament effective, but the look on peoples faces when 10 dragons get near their tanks/dreads/monoliths is priceless!
Banshees:  In terms of mini hammer-and-anvil, the defend avengers are the anvil, and these girls are the hammer.  They help in assault/counter assault.
Autarch Shining Spears:  These guys go and pick off any squad that my opponent thinks to send into my deployment zone to snatch my objective.  They are the fisrt thing the opponent meets when he breaks through my front line.  If the enemy is able to exploit a hole or weakpoint in my line, the spears and autarch make sure he can't capitalize on it.  These guys try to stay away from the heavy fighting and pick off stragglers.
Stormies:  Their main purpose is anti-GEQ and hordes.  They can also fulfill supplementary roles: Warlock can aid downing tanks, can help tarpit/assault.  They fill in where needed.

Feel free to rip this list apart (with constructive criticism!) as any help and/or tips are greatly appreciated.

-EDIT:  fixed some math errors-
List v1.4

Reserved for

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential Every Single Skimmer has good AT potential, the unit inside even have some potential or their even dedicated to AT.. BUt I still think that it could be slightly improved in very mino8 ways.. Thus I rate it as Very Good 0.9
2.. Anti-MEQ potential There is almost no anti-power armour in the list; the Lances are good when assaulting; but the rest is pure numbers and combo's which are decent but not great; although the FD's could help and some combo's are sick.. Thus I rate it as Above Average 0.7
3.. Anti-Horde potential Not specifically as it has virtually no templates at its disposal and Bladestorm is not always the greatest item to rely on... It does have numbers on its side though, and the skimmer spam can keep some stuff safe for a while... Thus I rate it as Average 0.6
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Liking the mass Skimmer use of good firepower; but sometime a little variety might actually help... Thus I only rate it as Average 0.6
5.. Assault potential Well, it does have Banshees and Spears... but neither is good at prolonged CC, nor do they do well after that first thrust (unless used exceptionally well); it does have nice holding units though, etc... Thus I only rate this as Above Average 0.7
6.. Scoring Units / point level All the units are decent for Scoring but not great (embolden might help the guardians, etc), but 3 at this Points level can be enough when you running 5 serious contesting itmes as well, plus extra's... Thus I score it as Above Average 0.7
7.. Durability or Resilience Oh its resilient enough... if its stays in the air, and the Spears don't get picked off... usage is the key factor, and when and where to dis-embark. Because these are not always as easy to do, as it sounds, this is not a "No Brainer" list... Thus I rate it as Above Average 0.7
8.. Flexability It can do well enough vs most any opponent, and any terrain or scenerio.. so its Good in this department... 0.8
9.. Mission Capabiliy It puts out a little extra on the KP side; but the missions are all do-able with this style of list, Thus I rate it as Good 0.8
10. Dynamics and/or Theme I do see this a very Themed Biel-Tan list... although some things are a little out of the theme (just a little).. Thus overall I rate it as Very Good 0.9

Rating = 7.4/10  Some will disagree, and thats OK... But I see this as a nice themed list that has its competitive ways about it... but its not a list that will be that easy to use for everyone... If the enemy knows what to do, the list can be trimmed accordingly and slowly shut down... Watch your game play though and the list has the potential to serve you well for a very long time.


CaHG
« Last Edit: March 9, 2009, 01:34:02 PM by moc065 »
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