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Offline Eldanesh

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Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« on: September 30, 2003, 02:05:26 PM »
The Discussion Board is getting chock full of 'Do you believe this?' type posts. For the sake of sanity and an uncluttered Discussion board, from here on out please rerfer and continue all such posts to this thread. I've locked all such current threads and will refer them here because all of them share a common theme and usually cross over into the topics of other such threads.

I'm not discouraging such discussions, I'm just organizing.

Thanks for understanding.
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Offline Sheepz

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2003, 02:54:39 PM »
Thank *God*, I thought it was getting a little out of hand...

Offline Erand

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2003, 03:01:30 PM »
great ideas there Eldanesh, i feel that this thread will soon become as popular as the guys and girls thread.... well maybe not quite but close  ;) so what questions do people out there have????

Erriond

Offline Surface

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2003, 03:02:47 PM »
Me, too I think half a dozen threads on essentially the same topic were way too much.

Anyway, I have an inaugural question.

Do you actually have any control over what you believe?  I mean I know I can't choose to believe in god, even if I want to.  Similarly, I doubt many religious people could choose to cease believing in god.

In a similar vein there are people (clergy included) who loose their faith despite (presumably) not wishing to.

What do you think and why.

Also if it’s true that we cannot consciously choose our beliefs then where is the merit in possessing them, it we only came across them by circumstance?
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Offline Tuisich-Anastari

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2003, 03:22:42 PM »
Let me respond briefly that 'could' and 'would' are two different things.  It is certainly possible that I change my beliefs, and indeed I once was an atheist.  Yet, I do not see that I would now change that core trust in Jesus Christ.  And, yes, I do think we have some control over what we believe.  I believe we do choose freely.

What do you think controls/determines what we believe, as we have no part in it?

T-A
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book than they assume it to be." --Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

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Offline Erand

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2003, 03:34:24 PM »
well, as a student of theology and philosophy, i will attempt to answer some of the questions that come up.. however philosophy being what it is, just like life there is no right answer, you can argue whatever you want, and in any way you want.

to start with, everyone is different but at the same time we all think very similarly, and react to the same things in much the same internal way, even if the outward signs of that internal reaction are very different. belife is one of those key factors to which we react either very well or very badly, people need belife, you oftern find that those people who belive most of all are those who have either had a personal experiance that has lead them to that belife and as such they have made a concious choise toward it, or they were simply brought up that way strictly and in a caring environment. people who evolve this way are very likly to addopt the belifes of their parents even if it does not seem logical to them. you cannot reason out belife, just as you cannot reason out love, you can't sit for a few hours, study the major religions and say "oh yer! that looks about right! i will choose that one," it is something integeral to the person and it just has to click. the most devout of all religious belivers are normaly those who convert from one religion or atheaism to their chosen religion because they belive... so yes in that respect you can choose what you belive, just not weather you belive or not....

Erriond

Offline Surface

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2003, 03:41:38 PM »
So could you choose to be an atheist now, or a Buddhist?

When you were an atheist could you have adopted Judaism rather than Christianity.

Saying that you believe what you want to believe seems only to be put the question back a step.  What makes some people want to believe something and others want to believe something else.  Or for that matter what motivates some people to not believe.
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Offline Erand

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2003, 03:59:17 PM »
well that is the question!

Quote
What makes some people want to believe something and others want to believe something else.  Or for that matter what motivates some people to not believe.

why do we belive? a popular theory put forward by Aristotle and many great philosophers since says that we learn by our experiances, if we were all to live exactly the same lives in the same body, we would all act in the same way, however others such as plato would have argue that we have an imortal knowlage of the perfect belife, our soul remembers the truth from before it was part of us in birth, but that does not help the man who does not belive in souls now does it? personaly i am inclined to think that we live through what we experiance, and no more, there is no inate knowlage, no intuishion, only what we have accumulated and reasoned for ourselves over our lives, and even that self reasoning can only come from the experiances that we use as a basis for our reason. for example i used to belive that when someone said something to me it was true, not when they gave an ethical statement or anything like that but just said something like told me how they felt about me or what they did on the weekend, i had no reason to belive othersise, why would they lie to me? there is no point, i then made my moral judgements based on that.... but then one day i found out that someone i had placed great trust in, to the point were i had had serious intemate relations with her was lying to me.... she destoryed the best frinedship i ever had, why? i don't know, but the poin is that, that experiance has changed my belife in others and in facts, i put no faith in other peoples words anymore, words can be distorted and misunderstood. my experiance changed my belife. we have no other way of gagin things other than by using the knowlage we have already gained, this is partly why some people are able to manipulate others so easily.

Erriond

Offline Tuisich-Anastari

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2003, 04:06:53 PM »
That's a good question, and I think some of the details will of course play out differently from person to person.  Yet, behind it there is a universal answer, I believe.

Romans 1:18-22 RSVA  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.  (19)  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.  (20)  Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;  (21)  for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.  (22)  Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

John 3:17-21 RSVA  For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.  (18) He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (19) And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (20) For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

John 6:44-45 RSVA  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  (45)  It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

I think those verses are pretty self-explanatory regarding my position, but I will elaborate if necessary.

To answer the other question, I could now choose to believe other than I do were I to be convinced that what I believe is false and the other true.  Could I just up and say, "I'm gonna believe something new today."?  No, clearly not.  Belief is a matter that engages both the mind and the heart, and can neither be avoided nor taken lightly.  Were it the case that I had been convinced, heart and mind, of the truth of a different belief when I was an atheist, then I suppose I could have taken on that belief instead.  I think, for us to discuss this business of what one 'could' or 'could not' do or have done we need to define more clearly what we mean by 'could.'  Of what sort of possibility are you speaking?

Thoughts?

T-A
"A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different
book than they assume it to be." --Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

This post is dedicated to all those who never have a post dedicated to them.

Offline Surface

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2003, 04:22:56 PM »
So is the prevailing theory here is that it is nurture rather than nature.

I am of the opinion that it is a mixture of both.  I think it is reasonable that we are born with predispositions to certain ways of seeing the world, different mental filters.  For example I come from a family of 5 and I am a scientist but have a sister who is an artist, yet the same parents raised us.  And yet I can see that our experiences must influence our choices also.

Its like cabbage I guess, some people like it some don’t.  It is unlikely to be a conscious reasoned preference since we know that it is good for you (at least that’s what my parents said) and would therefore all like it.  It is likely to have something to do with phenotype and equally it could have to do with being made to stay at the table until it was all eaten.  My best guess is that all our preferences, ranging from religion to food, to who we fall in love with are mostly beyond our conscious control and are the product of nature and nurture.
Be very, very careful.  If you die in a yellow dream, you die in real life.

Jeff Noon/Vurt

You need Jesus, friend. You need to give your life to Jesus and ask Him to set you free from all of the demonic rock music that you've been listening to.

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Offline Surface

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2003, 04:29:09 PM »
Just a quick housekeeping point.

My replies are probably a step behind the current post because while I’m writing someone is moving the thread onwards.

The speed of contributions may be a potential downside of merging all the various threads.

T-A will think about your post and wait for other opinions also, then post later.
Be very, very careful.  If you die in a yellow dream, you die in real life.

Jeff Noon/Vurt

You need Jesus, friend. You need to give your life to Jesus and ask Him to set you free from all of the demonic rock music that you've been listening to.

Some crazy person

Offline Steamboat Willy

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2003, 07:18:14 PM »
Oh , to pick up on a point that HarlequinS. made in the other thread (which is now locked *glares at 'Nesh*, nah it was for the best)

The use of cannabis because it says so in the bible is the main arguement of ratas i beleive, although i may be wrong.  Personally, I think Tobacco should be banned, and it would, if our governments didnt earn so much out of taxign the thing that kills us

Offline Ilfirin Noore

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #12 on: October 1, 2003, 12:28:40 AM »
I've never heard of the Bible condoning weed... But it also encourages wine drinking. Of course, it discourages excessive drinking of anything intoxicating, so I'd assume the same to be true of weed.
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Offline laun mo R

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #13 on: October 1, 2003, 02:38:02 AM »
format?

Shall we all use a tag line as first line to keep the multiple subjects flying?

ie:
God on weed  
(followed by comments)
  Sloth, gluttony

new topics get first crack at catchy titles

counter points are welcomed but keep it concerned.
I worry the fear of rebuke keeps otrhers from sharing their heart.

any ideas?
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Offline laun mo R

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #14 on: October 1, 2003, 03:44:53 AM »
Blasphemy


People blaspheme to/because:
exercise bad manners
Attract attention
Hurtful Intent  disrespect    coming and going :'(
To provoke a response
Counter preaching/ forced conversion
obtain "power" by insult
the end all be all Stupidity
Calling the higher power out  " prove you exist"
make your self Equal with god  ???
"THe devel makes them do it"
not to be confused with
Sanctimonious "Holier-than-thou attitude"
they don't think its blasphemy



Gee I guess the Recap covers most of it.
oh well it demo's the format idea.

See ya in the funny papers ;D
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Offline Steamboat Willy

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #15 on: October 1, 2003, 08:19:12 AM »
OK:

The Afterlife: Bull or Truth?

And is thier any proof of it existing/not existing?

(and reincarnation too while your at it)

Personally, I think Heaven and Hell was dreamed up by the Church to keep people in shape, doing what they want them to do.

Offline Yentz

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #16 on: October 1, 2003, 10:13:12 AM »
The Afterlife: Bulll or Truth?

We really can't know, so why not assume something and live our lives? Concerning ourselves with an afterlife has no good purpose, as every theory out there for it is simply made up. There is no possible way for a living person to figure out wether their is an afterlife.

Offline Steamboat Willy

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #17 on: October 1, 2003, 11:32:15 AM »
this was actually meant as what do you personally believe and what have you read into the subject....

should ahev clarified that.. Ooops  :-\

Offline HarlequinSolitaire

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #18 on: October 1, 2003, 12:23:44 PM »
People blaspheme to/because:
exercise bad manners
Attract attention
Hurtful Intent  disrespect    coming and going
To provoke a response
Counter preaching/ forced conversion
obtain "power" by insult
the end all be all Stupidity
Calling the higher power out  " prove you exist"
make your self Equal with god  
"THe devel makes them do it"
not to be confused with
Sanctimonious "Holier-than-thou attitude"
they don't think its blasphemy

Riiiight... Your Christian rants are going against my religion, so according to your logic, you're stupid, rude and are a power freak.

Ah, I see. It's only blaspheming if it's against Christianity...

I believe that when you die, you rot... Y'know? We are just organs (brains) and I don't believe in any spirit stuff... It's jsut there to make people feel better about dying...

"OMG, I'm gonna die some day!"

"No, after it you'll go to a wonderful land in the sky where you can do whatever you want, aaaall day..."

Just IMHO, people...
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Offline Sheepz

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Re:Theology, Philosophy and Religion
« Reply #19 on: October 1, 2003, 01:46:08 PM »
Blasphemy

Blasphemy, it is a word, amongst many, used exclusively (or it used to be) by the Christian faith, so yes, it is only Blasphemy against Christians, I am sure other faiths have different words.

Well HS, thats your opinion, stick to it, and see if you are right. You could do a report on "my afterlife eperiment"

 


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