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Offline Benis

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #100 on: November 6, 2012, 01:07:15 PM »
Firestorm is still, on average, about a third again better than a frag missile at murdering space marines. Regards crowd control, I was more observing that sooner or later you will face something lighter than space marines, at which point the dedicated astartes-killing thousand sons lose a lot of their effectiveness; the ability to trot out Firestorm automatically helps the squad achieve something other than just be double price bolters...

Considering what you actually pay for to use that Firestorm it is pretty close to a slap in the face: The Aspiring Sorcerer almost costs as much as three Thousand Sons yet has the unreliable (both in scatter and psychic test) output of weapon that in the more generous circumstances has the chance to hit about three models, basically the Sorcerer would have been more impressive with an Inferno bolt storm bolter than that witchfire in many cases. It is a huge tax on Thousand Sons that you have this costly model that doesn't really do much at all for his cost, you would generally be better of with additional Thousand Sons instead of the Sorcerer, so the model that is meant to give the unit flexibility and an interesting angle is instead drain and little more.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #101 on: November 6, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »

Considering what you actually pay for to use that Firestorm it is pretty close to a slap in the face: The Aspiring Sorcerer almost costs as much as three Thousand Sons yet has the unreliable (both in scatter and psychic test) output of weapon that in the more generous circumstances has the chance to hit about three models, basically the Sorcerer would have been more impressive with an Inferno bolt storm bolter than that witchfire in many cases. It is a huge tax on Thousand Sons that you have this costly model that doesn't really do much at all for his cost, you would generally be better of with additional Thousand Sons instead of the Sorcerer, so the model that is meant to give the unit flexibility and an interesting angle is instead drain and little more.


Whilst I am in full agreement that the TZeentch power list leaves alot to be desired (how does Tzeentch have the worst list of the three ??? seriously :-\) the sorcerer has alot of other benefits that you are paying for other than his single lackluster power.
He comes with a force weapon that can be tailored to fight all types of enemies.
That force weapon can cause instant death.
He adds to the DTW roll of the squad.
This is not to mention his character status, extra attacks and champion of chaos ability.
He may cost a lot but its a bit harsh calling him a tax as you get a fair bit for the points all things considered.

Offline Caustic

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #102 on: November 6, 2012, 02:56:50 PM »
This list I made based around Tzeentch is pretty good (in my opinion) at 2K.

2K Tzeentch Marines and Allied Demons

Because I'm actually considering investing in a Tzeentch army, I feel the need to weigh in on the topic of Tzeentch's effectiveness and psychic powers.  I feel like the real potential in terms of powerful armies for Chaos Marines comes from being allied with Chaos Daemons, with the Marines providing the boots on the ground while the Daemons are specialized enough that their side of the army can be tailored to fill the Marine weaknesses.

Nobody has really considered this because Daemons are hostile or risky to most other armies, and are only Battle Brothers to Chaos Marines.

Daemons got an update just prior to the release of 6th edition that didn't get a lot of attention at the time but really makes sense to me now that all the pieces are coming together.  Units like Tzeentch Flamers (one of the best units in the game imo) and Tzeentch Screamers work amazingly well in concert with Thousand Sons covering the areas of Horde-control, anti-TEQ, and anti-vehicle strongly.

As far as the Tzeentch Powers go, I think that the fact Aspiring Sorcerers are no longer required to pay for their powers is a great boost, in addition to there being no more Movement Penalties on Slow and Purposeful (The only significant penalty is no Overwatch but that's something not gained rather then lost), no more 'The Sorcerer Commands' BS, as well as no more 'roll more saves' BS when you lose combat thanks to Fearless.

These above boosts considered (not to mention an overall 2 pt reduction in Sorcerer cost) let's get into the powers themselves:

Firestorm of Tzeentch: bad power for a couple of reasons, namely its lack of AP in a predominantly AP3 squad, its random strength that makes it unreliable, all the hoops you have to jump through to make it work (Psychic Test, Deny, Hit, Wound, Save, additional hits).  Even if I got Boon I wouldn't switch out for this for all the above reasons.

Boon of Mutation: If the Sorcerer can cast this power on himself (BRB says he can, Codex doesn't specify otherwise) then it is actually a 'good' but not 'great' power.  The hits aren't the end of the world (ie they aren't AP1) and in the rare circumstance you fail your save you can always Look Out Sir onto another nearby Tsons model or Character.  The benefits on the table are random but a lot of them are pretty good in terms of CC boosting potential.  If by chance you turn into a Spawn (you cannot become a Daemon Prince this way) then the Sorcerer is actually BETTER CC support then he would be in his normal form.

Bolt of Tzeentch:  This is a good, borderline great power that you have 50% of getting (look at it this way, an Aspiring Sorcerer either gets the power he wants or he plays the lottery with his soul every turn).  The key is that it's a beam and not a 1 shot 1 kill it used to be in the last codex (for 30 points nonetheless, ugh).  This means you can hit multiple vehicles/models automatically in a single shot with a decent chance of killing them - against MEQ the odds are in your favour to wound for the first 4 models you hit, and you are unlikely to get more then that.

Like I said above, I feel like the real potential comes with Allied Chaos Daemons to fill in the gaps.  When you start considering units in the Chaos Marines book in this context, you can see some definite light spots. Consider the power of a Epidemus/Death Guard list for instance...

Offline Benis

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #103 on: November 6, 2012, 03:02:26 PM »
Whilst I am in full agreement that the TZeentch power list leaves alot to be desired (how does Tzeentch have the worst list of the three ??? seriously :-\) the sorcerer has alot of other benefits that you are paying for other than his single lackluster power.
He comes with a force weapon that can be tailored to fight all types of enemies.
That force weapon can cause instant death.
He adds to the DTW roll of the squad.
This is not to mention his character status, extra attacks and champion of chaos ability.
He may cost a lot but its a bit harsh calling him a tax as you get a fair bit for the points all things considered.

You do get some other stuff but little of it is of much value for the unit except in crappy situations when their true purpose have failed them. The force weapon is nice and all but while it might scare off some independent characters it does very little against actual assault troops, which is in my opinion more common assault threats than multi-wound characters. I grant you that it can be quite useful against monstrous creatures though. His extra stats is hardly impressive, I would have been surprised if it was less an given their resilience Deny the Witch doesn't really spark that much either.

In the end you pay for him to be a psyker but what he brings is lacklustre, it isn't even comparable to a special weapon/heavy weapon in a normal squad unless you happen to be lucky with the rolls. I think a lot could easily have been solved with switching Doombolt to Primaris  and boosting the ability a bit of Firestorm to actually work as an anti-light infantry attack.

Offline Wyrmnax

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #104 on: November 7, 2012, 01:04:14 PM »
I think you can only 'Look out Sir' before you take the save. Once you do, failures are applied to that specific model.

Offline Caustic

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #105 on: November 7, 2012, 02:57:07 PM »
I think you can only 'Look out Sir' before you take the save. Once you do, failures are applied to that specific model.

This way only happens if there are mixed saves in the unit (which there are not, the Sorcerer and Tsons are identical save wise).  If you check the Look out Sir box on Pg.16, you will see it contains a postulate for unsaved Wounds as well as Wounds.

Offline Locarno

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #106 on: November 7, 2012, 04:14:11 PM »
No longer

Quote from: Rulebook FAQ
Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.
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Offline BaconTaser

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #107 on: November 9, 2012, 11:55:13 AM »
Now before I start dwelling into this subject: It's good to be back here guys :) .



Now what really underwhelmed me with the new dex is how the Daemon Prince with the lack of EW and MUST take a mark is what really rustled my jimmies. Even though there's not much a str 10 shot can do while the Prince is flying high in the sky, it can still be brought down by small arms fire and then be shot down by insta-kill shot or force weapon, guess the Heldrake is the new Fly Prince now. Sure the Defiler is the new Carnifexe with the added IWND and 5++ save but it's just too expensive for me, taking into account how cheaper the new toys are and already is tossed aside by the now cheaper Havoks makes it hard for the Defiler to fit anywhere. Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.

Also the lack of variety of Daemonic Weapons was also a letdown, would of loved to have the option to make your own DW on any of your close combat weapons for like 10-15pts and included in the boon table.

Offline Caustic

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #108 on: November 9, 2012, 03:31:07 PM »
No longer

Quote from: Rulebook FAQ
Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.

They FAQed it? Okay, then you can make the 'Look Out Sir' roll before doing the save on the Sorcerer tossing it onto another Rubric Marine instead.  The point remains that 'Boon of Mutation' wounds can be mitigated enough on the Sorcerer to make it a power work using rather then exchanging it for the next to worthless Primaris Power.

Offline PhoenixLord1989

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2012, 03:04:39 AM »
Though the situation is slim, only being T5 and no EW on the Princes, if anyone has any sort of power or ability to reduce the T of the Prince for a turn and shoots it and it has to take a grounding test, it can then Instant kill them from the fall. This happened when I used my hive tyrant to cast enfeeble on my friends flying prince then shot him with some gaunts to cause him to fall to his death.
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Offline archonoftheredhand

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2012, 10:22:20 AM »

 Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.


I don't know which codex you have, but in my book they are still the toughness of a regular CSM unless giving them the MoN. They also still have S&P so are not static IMO.

Offline BaconTaser

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2012, 10:33:50 AM »

 Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.


I don't know which codex you have, but in my book they are still the toughness of a regular CSM unless giving them the MoN. They also still have S&P so are not static IMO.

Yes I was implying the use of the MoN.

What I mean't on being ''static'' was that I wouldn't Deep strike them like I used to thanks to the homers on the Icons are gone and that I'd be using them near difficult terrain to deny enemy firing by sight, at least that's how the Meta in my side works since it's IG heavy ( unless they take MoN, it would be safer to walk around town now). What I mean't was sticking around terrains and Aegis, being more careful with them that's all.

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2012, 09:35:02 AM »
No longer

Quote from: Rulebook FAQ
Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.

They FAQed it? Okay, then you can make the 'Look Out Sir' roll before doing the save on the Sorcerer tossing it onto another Rubric Marine instead.  The point remains that 'Boon of Mutation' wounds can be mitigated enough on the Sorcerer to make it a power work using rather then exchanging it for the next to worthless Primaris Power.

I don't think you can LOS wounds caused by the use of this power.
LOS is only used when allocating wounds which you are not doing here, also LOS specifically appears in the shooting and assault wound allocation sections it is not a general rule to be used whenever a wound is caused.


I don't want to turn this into a rules debate so if people disagree we can start another thread.

Offline HeraldofDisease

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2012, 11:36:07 AM »
I really don't see anything wrong with it. Yeah they weakened CC greatly, but that's not just the codex's doings. That's really just the 6th ed rules. So you may have to change a few tactics to compensate for the loss of CC, and not rely on your vehicles to do alot of the fighting since they've pretty much degenerated into a support role rather than assault. But i enjoy it pretty well.
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Offline Athaga Mor

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2012, 01:25:57 AM »
Hi guys - been forever!
So from a nurgle purist pov, this dex is going to bring me back in. I haven't touched my deathguard w any seriousness since probably 2005. Not a fan of DPs, defilers. Feels like the new dex (especially bringing back demons and zombies) let's the horde back in. Lords/sorcerers, havocs, bikes, mutations, typhus, epi, reduced costs, marks by figure, some wargear options... Really good stuff. There's a few bumps... Dwpn options for example but... Meh. Looks like the orks may get a timeout for a bit. Actually excited... The girl, not so much :P
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:27:41 AM by Athaga Mor »
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Offline ZarathustraSuicuine

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #115 on: April 7, 2013, 06:27:07 PM »
Just seen the new Tau codex, and lets just say when you put it with the dark angels one... ours feels like ti was a rush job during kelly's tea break.
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Offline Rangerspam

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #116 on: April 7, 2013, 08:53:38 PM »
Honestly, when I look at the chaos dexes (both of em') in comparison to the other 6th dexes its seems like the chaos dexes were intended to work in tandem, together they form a completeish dex with in the new 6th meta.  Thats why at face value both dexes seem lack luster, but effective.  Together they become a whole new monster. 

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #117 on: April 8, 2013, 08:01:16 AM »
I've found both dex's to be competitive on there own but they do work very well together.

So far all the sixth edition dex's seem to be pretty even, dark angels certainly haven't been running amuck in our play group and seem a well balanced marine dex. Can say about tau for sure as yet but it looks powerful but limited so hopefully it continues the balanced trend.

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Re: new chaos dex dissapointments
« Reply #118 on: April 8, 2013, 11:06:16 AM »
[mod]This thread was last active in December, ladies and gentlemen -- please leave the dead alone.[/mod]

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