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Author Topic: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)  (Read 1326 times)

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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 04:29:27 PM »
Well, yeah, and the screaming sounds of X-wings wouldn't exist either. It's a space fantasy.

I still think the bombing run was over the top though. Not necessarily due to it being counterfactual, but because it was... stupid.

As I said before, I did enjoy this movie, to be clear. But, you know, it's the kind of movie that has a lot of "hey, wait a minute"-moments to it after seeing it.

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 07:14:56 PM »
someone needs to send the writers back to primary school, there is no friction in space, so you only need to burn fuel to accelerate, change direction or slow down..

They're all accelerating, the resistance ships have higher acceleration and therefore openned up the gap.
But ran out of fuel.

I didnt mind that bit actually. Star Wars space combat has always been heavily based on ww2 pacific ship/fighter inspiration than real physics.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 07:30:35 PM »
I don't expect Star Wars space combat to make a huge amount of sense, as long as it is more cool than sensible. The point blank warp jump thing was dumb, but it was more cool than dumb. Though it would be funny if in the next movie the Resistance's entire strategy relied on hooking up warp drives to asteroids then launching them into capital ships, lol.

I will say I didn't like the admiral plotline, which could be summarized as "the whites in charge of the resistance are amphetamine parrotty at communication, so the non-whites tried to save the day, but actually shouldn't have, and instead should have blindly obeyed their masters, erm, I mean, leaders"

Like I get that Disney wants to include non-whites and as a non-white I do appreciate this. But I'd really like it if maybe the big plot arc for the black guy, the latino guy, and the asian woman wasn't "shut up and do what the whites say, even if it makes no sense, any time you go against them it's bad"

Obviously this wasn't Disney's intent but come on man, like surely we can do better than this.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 09:55:32 PM »
I don't expect Star Wars space combat to make a huge amount of sense, as long as it is more cool than sensible. The point blank warp jump thing was dumb, but it was more cool than dumb. Though it would be funny if in the next movie the Resistance's entire strategy relied on hooking up warp drives to asteroids then launching them into capital ships, lol.

I will say I didn't like the admiral plotline, which could be summarized as "the whites in charge of the resistance are amphetamine parrotty at communication, so the non-whites tried to save the day, but actually shouldn't have, and instead should have blindly obeyed their masters, erm, I mean, leaders"

Like I get that Disney wants to include non-whites and as a non-white I do appreciate this. But I'd really like it if maybe the big plot arc for the black guy, the latino guy, and the asian woman wasn't "shut up and do what the whites say, even if it makes no sense, any time you go against them it's bad"

Obviously this wasn't Disney's intent but come on man, like surely we can do better than this.

Funny, last time I read someone criticizing the mutiny coup, it was something about presenting women in power as cold and unreasonable, and therefore misogynistic. Or maybe it was Poe being a misogynist, I forget. It was definitely something gender-based though, and it was problematic.

EDIT: And yeah, this does rather raise the question of why suicide bombings haven't been utilized more already. It's an incredibly cost-effective tactic, it seems.

On a slight tangent, I sort of dislike how the First Order just has a massive fleet apparently rivaling the old Empire seemingly out of nowhere. I get that they've been building for twenty years, but the industrial basis they've been doing that on seems to be significantly smaller than the old Empire, so it just seems like they've included a giant fleet because the audience expects the bad guys to have a giant fleet.

Personally, I would've liked to see some subversion of that. One of the first actions of the First Order would be to hijack the New Republic's fleet after the destruction of the Republic's capital world, for example. That would also go to some length to justify the investment of Starkiller base as well.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:20:23 AM by Sir_Godspeed »

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 11:29:16 PM »
Coup dilemma: Each side thought of themselves as the PCs while the others were NPCs. The chain of command doesn't necessarily default to point of view characters.
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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 12:37:07 AM »
With the mutiny, I actually liked the fact that the Admiral refused to tell Poe what the plan was.  when it comes down to it, really, an Admiral is not going to explain the intricacies of their plan to a fighter pilot who is without a fighter.  The phrase "I've got more important things to deal with" comes to mind.

On a slight tangent, I sort of dislike how the First Order just has a massive fleet apparently rivaling the old Empire seemingly out of nowhere. I get that they've been building for twenty years, but the industrial basis they've been doing that on seems to be significantly smaller than the old Empire, so it just seems like they've included a giant fleet because the audience expects the bad guys to have a giant fleet.

Personally, I would've liked to see some subversion of that. One of the first actions of the First Order would be to hijack the New Republic's fleet after the destruction of the Republic's capital world, for example. That would also go to some length to justify the investment of Starkiller base as well.
Therein lies the issue with how Disney is telling the Star Wars story.  Prior to the take over, the movies were the main source of the key information, where as the books either handled insignificant details or told stories that weren't really related / were in different time periods.  Now, to get the whole picture of the story, you have to broaden your view from just the movies to include the books, shows, comics, and games.  I add games in there because I just finished Battlefront II, where they handle Operation Resurrection (or what ever it's called).  They pretty much show that the First Order has the fleet capacity to gain control of the galaxy at about the end of TFA.  Kind of a deus ex machina, really, but it's there.

I don't expect Star Wars space combat to make a huge amount of sense, as long as it is more cool than sensible. The point blank warp jump thing was dumb, but it was more cool than dumb. Though it would be funny if in the next movie the Resistance's entire strategy relied on hooking up warp drives to asteroids then launching them into capital ships, lol.

I will say I didn't like the admiral plotline, which could be summarized as "the whites in charge of the resistance are amphetamine parrotty at communication, so the non-whites tried to save the day, but actually shouldn't have, and instead should have blindly obeyed their masters, erm, I mean, leaders"

Like I get that Disney wants to include non-whites and as a non-white I do appreciate this. But I'd really like it if maybe the big plot arc for the black guy, the latino guy, and the asian woman wasn't "shut up and do what the whites say, even if it makes no sense, any time you go against them it's bad"

Obviously this wasn't Disney's intent but come on man, like surely we can do better than this.
Maybe it's because I am white, but I didn't see race taking any part in that what so ever.  I saw that as a military organization with an established chain of command which was broken because subordinates did not trust their commanders.  If Poe wasn't a hot shot, and Finn wasn't a coward, the Admiral's plan would have gone off without a hitch and the resistance would have escaped.  But they went around the chain of command and hired a criminal who betrayed them.

I still think the bombing run was over the top though. Not necessarily due to it being counterfactual, but because it was... stupid.
Which is why Leia demoted Poe after the attack.  It was a terrible idea and poorly executed that cost them way too much.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 02:07:52 AM »
In addition to this, a lot of the mutiny plot was handled poorly.

When Poe calls the Admiral a traitor on the bridge, he should have been stunned and put in the brig. You can't let people do that.

Also, during the mutiny, Poe's men should have stunned the leadership and put them in the brig. You're mutinying! act like it!

I don't expect Star Wars space combat to make a huge amount of sense, as long as it is more cool than sensible. The point blank warp jump thing was dumb, but it was more cool than dumb. Though it would be funny if in the next movie the Resistance's entire strategy relied on hooking up warp drives to asteroids then launching them into capital ships, lol.

I will say I didn't like the admiral plotline, which could be summarized as "the whites in charge of the resistance are amphetamine parrotty at communication, so the non-whites tried to save the day, but actually shouldn't have, and instead should have blindly obeyed their masters, erm, I mean, leaders"

Like I get that Disney wants to include non-whites and as a non-white I do appreciate this. But I'd really like it if maybe the big plot arc for the black guy, the latino guy, and the asian woman wasn't "shut up and do what the whites say, even if it makes no sense, any time you go against them it's bad"

Obviously this wasn't Disney's intent but come on man, like surely we can do better than this.
Maybe it's because I am white, but I didn't see race taking any part in that what so ever.  I saw that as a military organization with an established chain of command which was broken because subordinates did not trust their commanders.  If Poe wasn't a hot shot, and Finn wasn't a coward, the Admiral's plan would have gone off without a hitch and the resistance would have escaped.  But they went around the chain of command and hired a criminal who betrayed them.

Ah, I'm not saying that the goal of the plot was for it to be about race, or even for the plot to have been written to be about race. I'm just saying, the moral of the story is that coincidentally all the non-whites should have obeyed all the whites without question. This wasn't a decision made about race, it is coincidental; the new characters are non-white, the commanding characters either just happen to be white (the Admiral) or are characters from the previous series who happen to be white. Nobody wrote this to be about race.

But... it just so happens the moral is that the non-whites should have obeyed the whites. :/
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:32:24 AM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Hymirl

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 04:36:28 PM »
Now you mention it, its an unfortnate (hopefully unintentional) racial subtex.

Frankly I think you could have worked out the super secret plan by looking out the window and seeing a grand total of one planet up ahead.

Heres another thought about the new story arc. The Emperor and the Empire are basically space hitler and space nazis.
We don't bring that back as a threat because thats old history now compared to 1979. What we are threated by now is a troubled youth who thinks that this Hitler guy was actually on the right track and a growing threat of alt right neo-nazis...  Enter Kylo and the 1st Order?
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 09:09:57 PM »
On a slight tangent, I sort of dislike how the First Order just has a massive fleet apparently rivaling the old Empire seemingly out of nowhere. I get that they've been building for twenty years, but the industrial basis they've been doing that on seems to be significantly smaller than the old Empire, so it just seems like they've included a giant fleet because the audience expects the bad guys to have a giant fleet.

Personally, I would've liked to see some subversion of that. One of the first actions of the First Order would be to hijack the New Republic's fleet after the destruction of the Republic's capital world, for example. That would also go to some length to justify the investment of Starkiller base as well.
Therein lies the issue with how Disney is telling the Star Wars story.  Prior to the take over, the movies were the main source of the key information, where as the books either handled insignificant details or told stories that weren't really related / were in different time periods.  Now, to get the whole picture of the story, you have to broaden your view from just the movies to include the books, shows, comics, and games.  I add games in there because I just finished Battlefront II, where they handle Operation Resurrection (or what ever it's called).  They pretty much show that the First Order has the fleet capacity to gain control of the galaxy at about the end of TFA.  Kind of a deus ex machina, really, but it's there.

I've seen the playthrough of BF2 as well, but again: that's not an explanation, it's just exposition. It somewhat explains their manpower though, with the abductions and contracting slavers.

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I still think the bombing run was over the top though. Not necessarily due to it being counterfactual, but because it was... stupid.
Which is why Leia demoted Poe after the attack.  It was a terrible idea and poorly executed that cost them way too much.

Sorry, I should've specified in what manner I see it as stupid: there are certain things in the Star Wars universe that people have become accustomed to accept. Screaming jets in the vacuum of space, space ships acting like napoleonic warships, 80s graphics in the indeterminate space future, etc.

I think however, that slow-as-molasses-"B52 bombers" that blow up at the prick of a needle, vertically dropping "Looney Tunes"-shaped bombs with the power of deep-space gravity(?) broke the suspension of disbelief of many as it was just a bit too much. It's not that it goes against physics, but rather that it goes against aesthetics, or style if you will.

Now you mention it, its an unfortnate (hopefully unintentional) racial subtex.

Frankly I think you could have worked out the super secret plan by looking out the window and seeing a grand total of one planet up ahead.

Heres another thought about the new story arc. The Emperor and the Empire are basically space hitler and space nazis.
We don't bring that back as a threat because thats old history now compared to 1979. What we are threated by now is a troubled youth who thinks that this Hitler guy was actually on the right track and a growing threat of alt right neo-nazis...  Enter Kylo and the 1st Order?

It's pretty explicit that the First Order is based on the concept of Neo-Nazis. More specifically, they are based on the alternate history scenario of "what if the nazis escaped to South America and rebuilt in secrecy?", according to several interviews before The Force Awakens.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:13:23 PM by Sir_Godspeed »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 10:07:21 PM »
The whole fleet segment of the storyline was a hot mess, no argument there.

But, to me, it wasn't the draw. The Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff? That was pure gold and redeemed whatever foolishness was present in the fleet action storyline.

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2018, 08:50:08 PM »
I agree, I really liked the character development stuff (really made me enjoy Kylo more, especially), even though I also get why people weren't too happy about the revelation about Luke's actions. Worked for me though.

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2018, 04:27:32 PM »
But, to me, it wasn't the draw. The Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff? That was pure gold and redeemed whatever foolishness was present in the fleet action storyline.

True enough. Its a big step forward for Rey and Kylo in character development and their brief alliance and battle against the royal guard was awesome.

I agree, I really liked the character development stuff (really made me enjoy Kylo more, especially), even though I also get why people weren't too happy about the revelation about Luke's actions. Worked for me though.

My beef with Lukes death is that it was cheap. It was a cgi editing change, you see Luke sit at the end and the look on his face is one of triumph if at great cost. His death should have been a bigger scene like Yoda's had been.

There is footage of Mark Hamil coming out the premiere looking like a broken man after walking in literally hopping with excitment... it looks to me that Mark wasn't expecting it either.
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Offline magenb

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Re: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2018, 09:36:34 PM »
There is footage of Mark Hamil coming out the premiere looking like a broken man after walking in literally hopping with excitment... it looks to me that Mark wasn't expecting it either.

No he wasn't expecting for his character to die. That look after the premier kind of sums up the movie for a lot of fans.

 


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