Topic: Aetheism = Hell?

[mrspungebob]

Just a little logic breakdown of God:

We are (as far as i know) all creations of God. Also, God is allmighty and knows everything. Then, if I were to do some horrible thing, and will go to hell, then God knew that beforehand. So He created me in the knowledge that i was going to hell. I for one doesn't think that is a very nice thing to do.

Now, with my free will and all, i could have chosen not to do that horrible act. But i did anyway. So the two options as i see it is that

1. God knows everything, and created me in knowledge that i would go to hell, and that makes him quite uncompassionate.

2. God didn't know that i was going to do my horrible act, and just acted accordingly. Which makes him a nice fella, but not all-knowing.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

But therefore how would you explain religions like Hinduism (can't think of any others at the mo) that do not claim an omniscient god (our's behave like a childish petulant Gene Simmons...)

[Wargamer]

If God exists, then he gave us brains.

If he did not want us to use them, we would not have them.

If we use them, we can see the world around us, formulate our own opinions, theories and beliefs, and come to the conclusion that God does not exist, with evidence to support.

If God truly loves us as much as he claims (something I do not believe in one iota...), then he would forgive us for choosing the wrong religion.

Unfortunately, if God does exist, and forgives us, I'll be making him pay for the rest of eternity for crimes against humanity.

[mrspungebob]

My Claim was about god, not about religions that doesn't have a god

[Dralith]

so now you're just talking free will vs predestination: essentially catholic vs puritan doctrine.

But therefore how would you explain religions like Hinduism (can't think of any others at the mo) that do not claim an omniscient god (our's behave like a childish petulant Gene Simmons...)

the easy way: "We're right. They're wrong"
tried and true baby, tried and true.

My Claim was about god, not about religions that doesn't have a god

care to name any? just kidding. I know what you mean.

[Sgt. Sota]

What about Agnosticism? Where one would wait to see the end, and then decide? Would they go to their mind's eye of "hell."

I seem to recall a quote from the New Testament where Christ said that God would prefer those that are totally faithful and those that arn't to those that are only lukewarm in their faith. I don't if that would apply to you, only if you have some degree of faith, I suppose.

so now you're just talking free will vs predestination: essentially catholic vs puritan doctrine.

I'm pretty sure only Calvanists actually believe in pre-destination. Otherwise there would be no point for missions and trying to save others since they're already destined to go to heaven or hell.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Ah that way, there is less proof of heaven and hell than for reincarnation. After all we do have the Dalai Lama a reincarnation of the first one. And 5000 years plus of wrong? We're right they are wrong is avoiding the big white elephant in the room.

Buddhism is a religion without a God. Puritan and orthodox buddhists are atheists.

Predestination and free will were just two ways of trying to pacify the people. Free will made it man's fault if things went wrong (pray to god for forgiveness) and predestination made it God's fault when things went wrong (Oh dear he does'nt like us, pray to him to make it stop).

[Battle Armour]

Dear first dude who started this thread:

It all comes down to whether there is a God or not.

Being Roman Catholic I obviously beleive there is one, and, subscribing to Roman Catholicism (the first organized christian religion) God will forgive all but a few sins. Here's basically how it works in terms of Catholicism:

If you commit scuicide: you go to hell

if you fail to forgive those who have sined against you : you go to hell

Other than that you go to purgatory (a limited hell) where your suffer until you are cleansed of your sins and then move on to eternal euphoria/ paradise/ happiness etc...

So you could throw the largest christian denomination in his face or seeing as your an athiest you could simply say that there is nothing after death. But be content in the knowledge that even if your wrong you'll still probably end up in heaven.

As for other world religions. It is a possibility that all world religions are just different aspects of the truth. So basically when you apply them together you get the answers. Know a thing to remember is lots of religions are compatible with each other, and preach that there is forgiveness for being "mislead" as Wargammer said. (although I don't understand how he's going to make God pay...)

[Tender Hands]

If God exists, then he gave us brains.

If he did not want us to use them, we would not have them.

If we use them, we can see the world around us, formulate our own opinions, theories and beliefs, and come to the conclusion that God does not exist, with evidence to support.

If God truly loves us as much as he claims (something I do not believe in one iota...), then he would forgive us for choosing the wrong religion.

Unfortunately, if God does exist, and forgives us, I'll be making him pay for the rest of eternity for crimes against humanity.

as if God would have to follow your laws and would be subject to the wrath of his imperfect creations....

Why is it that people only focus on one aspect of God? God is love! i hear it all the time... people who focus soley on this miss another part of it... God is also just. and jealous.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

If God is jealous, means he is'nt perfect as he suffers from jealousy. The second biggest sin, as it was jealousy that led cain to kill abel... If he is'nt perfect then... hell everything falls apart like a house of cards in a tornado factory, as omnipotent omniscient hypocrites tend not to be too popular.

[Farseer OOBAD]

ne way, jesus said in the dead sea scrolls that there's no such thing as hell... but the first christian emperor decided to leave out this important fact.

.....

I didn't read the whole thread, so this is slightly off topic, but THIS is exactly why I am posting the evidence for Christianity.  This is a false statement.  The Da Vinci Code is good fiction, but terrible, awful, down-right-mistaken fact.  I'm just assuming that this is where you got it because only after this book (good read, but again, not accurate) was published did this "theory" become common.

A quick correction:
It was not the first Christian emperor of Rome (Constantine) who decided what went into the Bible, but rather the Council of Nicaea, made up of Christian bishops.  The decisions made by the Council faced very little opposition because what they put in the Bible was already commonly accepted and what they left out was not.

If you are going to try and poke holes in Christianity, do it with facts, not completely mistaken conjecture.  Please read some kind of NON-fiction textbook on early Christianity, whether Christian or secular, so that you don't post anything more that is completely false.  I tell you this in all kindness intended with education.

I got to thinking that as I am an aetheist and this one really religious guy at school says I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God. But I also don't believe in hell or heaven or the Devil. I mean how can I go to a place I don't believe in? Once my grade 9 religion teacher said that aetheists don't go to hell, because only those who believe heaven exsists but choose to worship the Devil. Your thoughts?

As I'm just responding to the asked question:
Let's say you were taken against your will to New York City.  You can believe with all your might that New York City doesn't exist, but you are still going to be in New York City.

Thus it comes down to whether atheism is correct.  If there is no god, then when we die, nothing happens.  We just stop existing.  If atheism is wrong, then your sins will mean you're going to Hell, not because you don't believe in God.  According to Christianity, you have to trust God to be saved from sin.


**EDIT: PS- Nubis, I also liked Gundam Wing.  Great, great cartoon.  Duo was my favorite too.

[Rasmus]

Thus it comes down to whether atheism is correct.  If there is no god, then when we die, nothing happens.  We just stop existing.  If atheism is wrong, then your sins will mean you're going to Hell, not because you don't believe in God.  According to Christianity, you have to trust God to be saved from sin.

   If there was just christianity and atheism in the world it might be that simple. What if you are both wrong and the Hindus are right? Then you are just as screwed as the people you are trying to convert, indeed, your very effort might be detracting from the divine plan to save them by leading them into the light of Hinduism Truth. See the problem here? Just leave others alone to practice what faith (or non-faith) that they want (drop the "make them all my disciples"-crud) and if there is indeed a judge at the end of that long bright tunnel; you have an equal shot of it being "yours" as anyone elses. Just leave it be.

[Charon]

My opinion is simple, I'll see it when I get there.
Like you I'm an atheist, I don't believe there is neither a heaven nor a hell.
But I've had the discussion on the board before and even if I'm wrong I can see no reason why I should adhere to any rules when I become in all intents and purposes immortal.

ne way, Jesus said in the dead sea scrolls that there's no such thing as hell... but the first Christian emperor decided to leave out this important fact.

I didn't read the whole thread, so this is slightly off topic, but THIS is exactly why I am posting the evidence for Christianity.  This is a false statement.  The Da Vinci Code is good fiction, but terrible, awful, down-right-mistaken fact.  I'm just assuming that this is where you got it because only after this book (good read, but again, not accurate) was published did this "theory" become common.

A quick correction:
It was not the first Christian emperor of Rome (Constantine) who decided what went into the Bible, but rather the Council of Nicaea, made up of Christian bishops.  The decisions made by the Council faced very little opposition because what they put in the Bible was already commonly accepted and what they left out was not.

If you are going to try and poke holes in Christianity, do it with facts, not completely mistaken conjecture.  Please read some kind of NON-fiction textbook on early Christianity, whether Christian or secular, so that you don't post anything more that is completely false.  I tell you this in all kindness intended with education.

Can you please disclose your source of all knowing knowledge?

The use of facts goes for protecting your religion from hole poking, as well as for the people that want to show you holes that are already there.

The emperor Constantine did not decide what went into the bible, but he did convoke (order) the first Council of Nicea.
The first council did not however debate the New Testament, but the trinity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Basically Constantine started the process of organising Christianity into a organised religion it is now.
All under his and his descendants control (The second Council of Nicea for example was convoked by Empress Irene more than 400 years later) for the strengthening of imperial control.

One of the earliest attempt at solidifying a canon was made by Marcion, who rejected the entire Old Testament, all but one gospel (Luke), and three of the Pauline letters. His unorthodox canon was rejected by a majority of Christians, as was he and his theology, Marcionism. Around 200 the Muratorian fragment was written, listing the accepted works. This list was very similar to the modern canon, but also included the Wisdom of Solomon (now part of the Deuterocanonical books) and the Apocalypse of Peter. The New Testament canon as it is now was first listed by St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367, in a letter written to his churches in Egypt. That canon gained wider and wider recognition until it was accepted by all at the Third Council of Carthage in 397. Even this council did not settle the matter, however. Certain books continued to be questioned, especially James and Revelation. Even as late as the 16th century, theologian and reformer Martin Luther questioned (but in the end did not reject) the Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Book of Revelation. Even today, German-language Luther Bibles are printed with these four books at the end of the canon, rather than their traditional order for other Christians. Due to the fact that some of the recognized Books of the Holy Scripture were having their canonicity questioned in the 16th century by Protestants, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional canon of the Scripture as a dogma of the Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

As you can see the bible wasn't actually decided in one council, but it was still decided on by men, with worldly needs and seats of power.

[Rasmus]

Like you I'm an atheist, I don't believe there is neither a heaven nor a hell.

  Are you talking to me? If so I must correct you. I am not an atheist. I have not been one since 1990.

[Charon]

Like you I'm an atheist, I don't believe there is neither a heaven nor a hell.

  Are you talking to me? If so I must correct you. I am not an atheist. I have not been one since 1990.

No Rasmus, I know your not an atheist.

My mistake, It was meant to be my reply to the original poster, did not put in a quote.

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

Okay, maybe it's time for a Christian to step in who actually knows what he's talking about... (not that others of you don't)

It seems to me that you have the wrong perspective about heaven and hell. The fact is not that you have to believe in the right doctrines in order to get to heaven, or else God says, "Damn you, go to hell." (I just had to use strong language to prove my point)

The fact is, we've been damned from the beginning.

No matter how good we've been in life, we've still sinned. Admit it. Even if we’ve never killed somebody before or anything, we’re still not perfect. We still judge other people, we still hate others, etc. We’re pretty much under sin’s control, so we can’t do anything against it. Even one slip-up is enough to make us not perfect. Heaven is only for those who are perfect.

This means we have to get rid of our sins in order to be reunited with God, the price for our sins has to be paid. That’s why Jesus died; he was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. With Him, we are able to enter eternity. So that hopefully answers your question. People don’t go to hell because they don’t believe the right stuff. People go to hell because they rejected the gift that can save them from hell.

But you're right in a way. There are some cocky Christians out there who give people threats of Hell because they don't believe. That's not the way. We're supposed to share the Gospel in love. Unfortunately, Christianity has the greatest number of hypocrites...

[Dralith]

This is a false statement.  The Da Vinci Code is good fiction, but terrible, awful, down-right-mistaken fact.

ugh, how can you possibly say that the da Vinci code was good fiction?

[mrspungebob]

The fact is, we've been damned from the beginning.

The problem is that that is your kind of christianitys view. There are other christian views of heaven and hell. And indeed other religions view on heaen and hell. And of course the belief that they don't exist.

People don’t go to hell because they don’t believe the right stuff. People go to hell because they rejected the gift that can save them from hell.

But you're right in a way. There are some cocky Christians out there who give people threats of Hell because they don't believe. That's not the way. We're supposed to share the Gospel in love. Unfortunately, Christianity has the greatest number of hypocrites...

Dont you have to believe in christianity to not-reject this gift? Or do you mean i go to heaven even if i don't believe in god?

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

Alright, I see the problem here...

People are saying there's no definite truth, and that what's right for one person may not be right for another person.

Fact is, that is THE point of view, based on the Bible.

Not meaning to sound cocky...

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

This is a false statement.  The Da Vinci Code is good fiction, but terrible, awful, down-right-mistaken fact.

ugh, how can you possibly say that the da Vinci code was good fiction?

Because such a statement is clearly his personal opinion, and therefore he can say whatever he likes about the quality of the book.