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Offline havik110

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Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« on: July 5, 2007, 12:23:29 AM »
hI all...Ive been lurking for 2 months or so.  My buddy had gotten into 40k and I of course thought myself to be above this level of dorkdom.  Saddly for my wallet i was not.  He had 4 armies and was not going to continue using one of them so i bought about 1500 pts for 100 bucks.  I have since gone into the 500-600 dollar range and am currently modding fantasy witch elves into wyches because the DE wyches are the ugliest models in the game...(note to anyone modding them, the mandrakes have the smallest hands in the dark eldar army from what ive found and the guns look perfect)

anyways I for the most part play 1850 games and I have a list that I like but I have a real hell of a time against necrons (I have found myself to do well against everything else except speed freaks, god those things make me cry, and have you ever notice tau plauers dont like to put the full 25% cover on the table  :-\   )

anyways here is my list and if anyone wants to give me some advice im all ears


HQ: Wych Dracite (11#, 285 Pts)
   1 Wych Dracite @ 285 Pts
      Agonizer; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades
      8 Wych Retinue @ [213] Pts
         Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades
         1 Succubus @ [46] Pts
            Agonizer; Close Combat Weapon; Wych Weapons; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades (Squad)
         1 Raider @ [55] Pts
            Dark Lance

HQ: Dracon (7#, 123 Pts)
   1 Dracon @ 123 Pts
      Close Combat Weapon; Poison Blades; Plasma Grenades
      1 Retinue @ [80] Pts
         5 Warriors @ [80] Pts
            Splinter Rifle (x3); Dark Lance (x2); Plasma Grenades

Troops: Warrior Squad (10#, 100 Pts)
   10 Warrior Squad @ 100 Pts
      Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

Troops: Warrior Squad (10#, 100 Pts)
   10 Warrior Squad @ 100 Pts
      Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

Troops: Warrior Squad (10#, 100 Pts)
   10 Warrior Squad @ 100 Pts
      Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

Troops: Warrior Squad (10#, 100 Pts)
   10 Warrior Squad @ 100 Pts
      Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

Elite: Wyches (11#, 242 Pts)
   9 Wyches @ 242 Pts
      Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades
      1 Succubus @ [46] Pts
         Agonizer; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades (Squad)
      1 Raider @ [70] Pts
         Dark Lance; Nightshields

Elite: Wyches (11#, 242 Pts)
   9 Wyches @ 242 Pts
      Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades
      1 Succubus @ [46] Pts
         Agonizer; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades (Squad)
      1 Raider @ [70] Pts
         Dark Lance; Nightshields

Elite: Wyches (11#, 242 Pts)
   9 Wyches @ 242 Pts
      Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades
      1 Succubus @ [46] Pts
         Agonizer; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades (Squad)
      1 Raider @ [70] Pts
         Dark Lance; Nightshields

Heavy Support: Ravager (1#, 105 Pts)
   1 Ravager @ 105 Pts
      Dark Lance (x3)

Heavy Support: Ravager (1#, 105 Pts)
   1 Ravager @ 105 Pts
      Dark Lance (x3)

Heavy Support: Ravager (1#, 105 Pts)
   1 Ravager @ 105 Pts
      Dark Lance (x3)

so as you can see i feel im pretty well balanced.  Ive been thinking of taking incubi but id have to drop a squad of wyches and warriors, then because of their lack of fleeting i havent been able to get them into combat with everyone in tact, add to that that a 10 man squad with a loaded arcon master incubi, drazar and 7 incubi can get into the 500 point range (man if you could get them into cc things would die) they are some of the most expensive squads in  the game  (our only 3+ save  >:( )

I hear people talk about webways but if you put a dracon on a bike like ive heard, army builder wont let you take the webway.  I also hear about talos's being used as decoys, just something to shoot at and soak up damage, but one again they are so slow that most players ignore them for the 1st couple of turns. 

anyways I what do you guys think f this as a tourny list, i think its pretty balanced and 23 lances is scary as hell to most players

Offline Meecrob

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #1 on: July 5, 2007, 05:07:07 AM »
When you use the word Wych Dracite, it implies that you're using a wych cult. If that's the case, all warrior squads count as elite and your wych squads count as troop choices. As such, you would have an illegal list, containing 4 Elite choices (the 4 warrior squads). Either make the dracite a dracon/archon and change the retinue or take out a warrior squad and add another wych squad.
The nightshields on the wych raiders are pretty unnecessary. They will almost always be hiding behind cover so you won't need nightshields. You'll learn quickly that the moment a raider is in the open, it will be shot down and the stuff inside will die. There's no skirting around that.
With the ravagers, think of upgrading a few of those Dark Lances to disintegrators. Disintegrators shred infantry with absurd efficiency.
Also, think about putting a few horrorfexes on your vehicles. When you see a ripe opportunity/lazy opponent, you can catch them packing units into cover. I've made a marine player make a pinning test at -6 leadership. It's very helpful if you can pin/disable select enemy units and ensure that they cannot shoot down your vehicles.
Your dracon seems to be a bit out of place. I'm going to assume that you're taking him simply to get the 2 dark lances from the retinue and, if thats your objective, then that's fine. I'm just telling you it's odd to put a stationary retinue (the dark lance warriors) with a combat-oriented IC (your dracon).
This part is very important, please take note of this:
You seem to have forgotten, arguably, our best item: the Shadowfield. This grants a character a 2+ invuln until they fail it for only 25 points. Throw this on your archon and you can march him/her up the field and into combat. I suggest an archon that looks like this:
Archon with shadowfield, combat drugs, plasma grenades, punisher, tormentor helm, animus vitae - This kind of archon is great against horde-ish because you have a base 4 strength power weapon which, once you kill an enemy ,becomes strength 5 and, with combat drugs, can be as high as 6.You'll kill almost everything you attack and, with combat drugs, you can give the archon a 12" charge with reroll misses, making it capable of tearing through just about everything.
Archon with shadowfield, combat drugs, plasma grenades, agonizer, ccw/splinter pistol - This version is slightly cheaper and simply has a power weapon that wounds everything on a 4+. This is really cost effective against very tough monstrous creatures, such as carnifexes, wraithlords, avatars, hive tyrants etc. You negate saves and toughness for only 20 points. Combine this with reroll misses, a 12" charge, and +1 attack and you'll be dishing out 6 attacks on the charge that reroll to hit and always wound on a 4+. In other words, you'll obliterate almost any enemy relying on armor.
Mind you, with a shadowfield, these units become insanely good against everything except for hordes/volume of attacks. You'll almost always strike first, hit with everything, and wound with about half of your attacks. This makes for a very, very tough close combat unit.
Lastly, haywire grenades are an odd accessory for wyches. You really ought to specialize different squads to perform distinctly unique tasks. Having a CC squad also have a tank hunting ability means that, irregardless of the turn, you'll be wasting some item of yours. If you're attacking a tank, you'll be wasting the wych weapons and the element of surprise. If you attack an infantry unit, you'll be wasting the money you spent on grenades. If anything, add a wych squad with haywire grenades and a goblet of spite. Put this squad in a raider and you're guaranteed to have an easy time glancing just about anything to death.

Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #2 on: July 5, 2007, 05:10:33 AM »
To help you properly we need to know where are your main problems, but spontaneously there are a few points:

1. Don't leave home without shadow field. Never ever!! Which leads to point two ->

2. Don't take retinues with your lords (if you don't want to field inccubi, that is) as you waste your fantastic 2++ and you're more likely to lose your lord due to morale checks

3.  Don't put 3 dark lances on your ravagers. If you want to fire them all, they can receive penetrating hits from the enemy. Go for at least two dissies per ravager

Offline Shade, Bankai King

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #3 on: July 5, 2007, 11:22:14 AM »
3.  Don't put 3 dark lances on your ravagers. If you want to fire them all, they can receive penetrating hits from the enemy. Go for at least two dissies per ravager
Now you can have 3 Lances on your ravagers and pull it off. It is much harder but it can be done. Just deploy right and target things that once you target them you either destroy it or stun it. What I do is hide my Ravager behind cover in deployment(making sure that their is an enemy tank that I can shoot by moving without much of anything firing back. Then my first turn I move the ravager out unload with the one dark lance. If I hurt the tank then there is a good chance that it won't beable to shoot next turn. In which case on my next turn I unload all 3 lances on it.
    Now after saying that I would never take 3 Ravagers all with triple Lances. I suggest turning one into a Dark Lance, 2 Dissie Ravager and turn another into a all Dissie ravager.
[CENTER

Offline Archonbjorn

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #4 on: July 5, 2007, 11:51:36 AM »
Your list is simply illegal as you are playing it now, being it a wych cult or kabal. I advice using more different kind of units for CC. A warp beast pack is awsome if you ask me and can do very well.

The main focus seems to rely on your shooting mainly, turn the ravagers in dissie ravagers. As you have more then enough dark lances overall.

Offline havik110

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #5 on: July 5, 2007, 03:34:04 PM »
Your list is simply illegal as you are playing it now, being it a wych cult or kabal. I advice using more different kind of units for CC. A warp beast pack is awsome if you ask me and can do very well.

The main focus seems to rely on your shooting mainly, turn the ravagers in dissie ravagers. As you have more then enough dark lances overall.

exactly how is the list illegal.  From what I understand kabals are alowed to take dracites but not wych arcites.  The dracon is allowed to lead, you dont need an arcon.  I simply take the dracon to use as another group of lances. 

as far as the newest version of army builder is concerned it is a valid list. 

Offline Meecrob

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #6 on: July 5, 2007, 03:51:08 PM »
The dracon and archon are for kabals. The dracite and archite are for wych cults. Wych cults and kabals have different force organization charts and you can't really mix the two. Check your codex again and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Offline havik110

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #7 on: July 5, 2007, 03:56:02 PM »
The dracon and archon are for kabals. The dracite and archite are for wych cults. Wych cults and kabals have different force organization charts and you can't really mix the two. Check your codex again and you'll see what I'm talking about.

i understand this but army builder used to allow you to not take the dracon, it now says the army is valid as long as you have a dracon in it...i guess ill call the rules people tommorrow as for some stupid reason they arent open today.  if it is a real problem i can always take a small group of incubi with the dracon...

i understand you cant take 2 archons or archites but nothing says you cant take a draonc say he is the leader of the kabal and have a dracite as 2nd HQ...would it be better as far as fluff goes to take an archon say he is leader then put the dracite in as she is definatly lower then the archon?
« Last Edit: July 5, 2007, 04:08:30 PM by havik110 »

Offline Archonbjorn

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #8 on: July 5, 2007, 04:35:50 PM »
No you simply can't field a Dracon and Dracite or Archon/archite in the same FoC. Wych cults are being led by Dracites. There is nothing in the codex which states that you are allowed to take Dracites in your kabal. If that would be the case then they would stand in the HQ section underneat the dracon now wouldn't they?

I am just to tired atm to give you proper advice about your list. your shooty capebilities are quite decent, yet the list is strangely build. Hybrid lists with DE don't really work the way as you did. I would either go fast with everything, or go for no speed at all. But thats my personal preference and battle experience.

Offline SyNide

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #9 on: July 6, 2007, 12:14:53 AM »
No you simply can't field a Dracon and Dracite or Archon/archite in the same FoC. Wych cults are being led by Dracites. There is nothing in the codex which states that you are allowed to take Dracites in your kabal. If that would be the case then they would stand in the HQ section underneat the dracon now wouldn't they?

Yet there is a clause restricting DE lords for the use of Wych Cults. Dracites are not prohibited for Kabals. Whereas there are lines specifically prohibiting the use of DE lords.
There is no reason for them to be. Fluff-wise(this is just to help you with rationalizing it), Kabals can and do hire Wych cults as Kabals are organized for more than just martial reasons. A kabal can be seen as a Mafia family and the Cult a martial arts school. It is reasonable that Dracites and their wychs are hired by Kabals, but for a cult to hire a kabal? a bit of a stretch.

This is however, quite a can of worms as people will start posting all sorts of "evidence" to the supposed prohibition of Dracites in Kabals.

Offline havik110

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #10 on: July 6, 2007, 08:44:44 PM »
well the codex had the answer.  "Dark Eldar Kabals are led by ruthless individuals who do not share power with others.  A dark eldar force may only ever contain one Archon or one Archite.  As many Dracons and Dracites may be taken as allowed by the mission being played."

Also got the answer from a good guy at the store I buy from in Orlando.

Just as the codex reads.

Offline Archonbjorn

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #11 on: July 9, 2007, 03:57:59 PM »
If that would be the case then the dracite would be in the kabal HQ part of the codex with the reprint, just like the wych weapons and everything else.

A Archon and dracon are meant for a kabal, a Archite and dracite are meant for a wych cult. When you wanted to use lelith with the old dex it said that you could/should play with a second FOC and use her as a allied detachment. Thus a wych cult and a kabal don't mix. When they are fielded as allies they should be fielded with the use of another FOC, which doesn't open up untill around somewhere of the 2k.

Offline eternallybored

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #12 on: July 9, 2007, 06:25:53 PM »
The rules currently state that if an army is "led" by a Wych lord, it must be a Wych Cult. What exactly it means to be "led" by a Wych lord is up for debate. The two most prevalent sides are no Wych lords in a Kabal and no Kabal lords in a Wych Cult (except for Lelith) OR a drachite is allowed as long as you have an Archon since the Archon clearly outranks the Drachite. The latter is often challenged, so most people to be safe either go with the former to use Lelith to get around it (since her specific Wych cult rules don't say anything about Dracons).

Anyway, back on topic...

I would upgrade the Drachite to Lelith. Its a pretty small increase in points for a significant increase in stats plus the ability to choose your combat drugs, which means no getting useless "Always strikes first" and being garunteed rerolling misses for your wyches in that squad (statistically the best). In addition, 4 Dark Lance squads is overkill, especially with your Ravagers, so dropping one to meet the requirements of a Wych Cult isn't that bad. As other people have said, night shields are probably a waste since they will probably only be useful on the first turn and even then, only if you play on a fairly large board. Another important point thats already been made is the Dracon leading a Dark Lance squad. The Dracon a is a CC machine, and its important to use him that way. There are two options for this: tool him up (including a shadow field, as been mentioned) and add him to a raider squad or give him a bike/skyboard and have him go hunting on his own. (Incedentally, the reason army builder won't let you take a webway portal on a bike/skyboard dracon is you can't as specified in the wargear entry for both items) The other option is to have him lead a group of incubi (5 is an ideal number, any more is overkill). Personally, i like this option since Incubi tear through marines with S4 power weapons and better initiative. Put these guys on a raider and the lack of fleet doesn't become as much of a problem.

One other personal preference I like is adding a portal to the Dark Lance Squads and deploying it on the first turn. This prevents your numberous raiders and ravagers from getting annihilated by penetrating hits on the first turn (before they get a chance to move). Since you can move coming out of the portal, it gives you a much better chance to get into CC with the wyches, since with 12" move, 2" deploy off the front of the raider, fleet, and the charge, they have a 21"-26" range, and since the portal will normally be about 12" off your table edge, that can get into CC with almost any army.
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 03:09:48 PM »
If that would be the case then the dracite would be in the kabal HQ part of the codex with the reprint, just like the wych weapons and everything else.

A Archon and dracon are meant for a kabal, a Archite and dracite are meant for a wych cult. When you wanted to use lelith with the old dex it said that you could/should play with a second FOC and use her as a allied detachment. Thus a wych cult and a kabal don't mix. When they are fielded as allies they should be fielded with the use of another FOC, which doesn't open up untill around somewhere of the 2k.

Reading from the update, the wych lord entry clearly states that Dark Eldar Lords are prohibited. Unless you can provide the same kind of line stating the prohibition of Wych Lords in Kabal Lists, then saying that a Drachite is only for a cult and can't be used in a Kabal list is pure conjecture. If you can provide a line CLEARLY stating the prohibition of Wych Lords in a list led by an Archon, then i will change my position.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 01:33:57 AM by The Knifer »

Offline Scorn

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2007, 08:02:42 PM »
I've let this go on long enough.  An army list review is not the place to debate the legality of the Archon and Dracite combo.  If you really feel the need we can make a new thread but as all the old arguments have been presented I don't really see a need.  It is an ongoing issue, if you wish to play it safe and guranteed on the legality issue don't take a Dracite with an Archon, otherwise discuss it with your opponent/tournament organizer/etc.  Now get back to reviewing the army list.
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2007, 01:57:46 AM »
Sorry Scorn.

Anyway, Your list looks pretty solid, However there are a few things that could be done better.

The troops for example, they seem too slow to keep up with the army. I'd have at the most 2 sniper squads. The reason i don't really like sniper squads is because they are too static, opponents can easily outflank them.

Another thing is that, without raider squads, every raider that an opponent fires on, will be a wych squad. They cost quite abit and when they go down, they are pretty much guaranteed to be reduced to 1-3 men...Raider squads give the enemy something else to think about.

You might want to try nightshields on your ravagers. They work wonders if you know your distancing.  ;D

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Re: Newbie to 40k, so of course i pick Dark Eldar.
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 04:27:01 PM »
take an archon or dracon as an independant character with a shadow field. NEVER EVER NEVER put your best model on the board with a retinue of pansies. I prefer to mount him on a jetbike but you don't have to.

if you want to add a webway you give them to sybrites not lords because they are too many points. the other option is a haemonoculus but currently you have 2 HQ options.

as for a dracite in a kabal there is the literal reading of the rule which allows it and the spirit of the rule which is debateable but it ultimatly comes down to the whim of the tournament organizer. Most of us just avoid the controversy at all.

the way to beat a speed freak army is match their speed and go for lots of skimmers. you have a mostly footslogger list so yes they are going to be tough. if you are concerned about that one opponent then i suggest you rethink the whole stratagy.

Having lots of units that all look the same (eg the four troops are all the same, the 3 heavys are all the same, the three elites are all the same) tends to lower your composition score. you might want to mix it up just a little. perhaps take 2 sniper squads and then have a 17 man squad with sybrite or take one sniper squad out and replace it with a 5 man dark lance squad in a raider (still get 2 lances for similar points and now they can target different things)

You also may be subject to some min/max scrutiny. people tend to look at lists with 3 ravagers a lot like the chaos player taking 9 obliterators. its legal but may lower your sportsmanship score. same thing with sniper squads... then again you only have to worry about sportsmanship if you win :-) most people give you high ranks if you don't curse at them while they stomp you.

If you are going for a true footslogger/swarm DE army (harder to play but lots of fun) you need more troops. think about 3 sniper squads and 3 squads of 20 warriors with assault weps. 90 models just in troops makes the game go longer so if its a tournament list you will need to practice moving models to finish the game under your time limit
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