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Author Topic: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?  (Read 1854 times)

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Offline 2-6y

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Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« on: June 23, 2007, 07:56:05 PM »
Heres an uncommon approach to deal with Nidzilla and other nasty lists:

Deciever

2x10 Immortals

2x10 Warriors

2x3 Heavy Destroyers

Monolith

-----------------------------
1845 pts

The Deciever is meant to discourage assaulters. Since the the mandatory HQ is filled I skip the Lord to get more bodys instead.

Immortals and Destroyers are both t5 so they dont need the orb in ranged fights. Hopefully they can use their range to keep the Deciever between them and opposing assaulters.

The Destroyers add a solution against 2+ saves. They will try to use terrain to minimize returnfire.

Please comment. I have not played Necrons yet.

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2007, 10:08:48 AM »
That would do it, but against most other armies people prefer Destroyers.  Destroyers are already expensive, but useful, and Heavy Destroyers are even more expensive but are less versatile. 
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Offline TheGreatAvatar

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2007, 10:12:01 AM »
This list will phase out by turn four when facing a close combat oriented army, a really fast army, or, a chaos god forbid, both.  No ResOrb means the units don't get any help on WBB from power weapon assaults and S8+ weapons.

Six S9AP2 shots sounds like a lot but remember only four, on average, will hit.  I would think of subing Destroyers for your HDestroyers.  More fire power for the points spent.


Offline Foxfire

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2007, 11:11:45 AM »
Your list has a few glaring weaknesses to my eye, which I suspect will cut down on its potential severely.  It brings to bear a lot of the Necrons' more unusual strengths, having loaded up on armor penetration(C'Tan close combat, Heavy Destroyers, and the Particle Whip of the Monolith), but I don't think even that will compensate for the structural weaknesses inherent.

Your list will be competing with others at 1850 points, yet there are only forty-six Necrons.  That will mean that thirty five have to be destroyed for you to phase out.  With just twenty of each major element, it won't be as difficult as you might think to eliminate all of your Warriors or all of your Immortals in one go.  Further more, without a Tomb Spyder, you'll need to keep your Immortals and Warriors close together, weakening the teleportation potential of the Monolith.  Also, even keeping them close together, it wouldn't be difficult for your enemy to blow apart one flank of your Immortal group or your Warrior group, leaving those at the very edge out of range and unable to rise again at all.  A Tomb Spyder would help with this greatly.

So...I've hit you with the problems.  Suggestions for how to fix them, if you agree that they are a problem?  First of all, I would point out that given your list's concerns, the Monolith does not achieve its potential at all, and given the dynamic of the list, it might be best to simply drop it.  I think that this list of yours might work, but you need to cut down on your point sinks.  Having a phalanxe of Immortals is nice, but the cost is huge, and the Deceiver's is as well.  If you plan on taking both of those, I would drop the Monolith and the Heavy Destroyers, in order to stock up on some defensive selections, as well as some standard Destroyers to provide your list with the ranged power it will lack after dropping the heavies. 

Getting rid of your Heavy Destroyers and Monolith both will liberate 625 points for you to spend in other ways.  I would suggest taking one or two Tomb Spyders, two groups of four standard Destroyers, and six to nine additional Warriors.  This combination will grant you some security in the Tomb Spyder/s and extra Warriors, as well as a lot of ranged fire power to whittle down your enemies and create a counter-threat while your Immortals get into range.  Also, the Destroyers will help cut down close-combat enemies while your Immortals perform a firing retreat, hopefully weakening your foes enough for the Deceiver to finish them off.

To summarize, I think 1850 points without a Resurrection Orb can be done, you just have to be mindful of your list's weaknesses, and compensate for them  ;)

Offline 2-6y

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2007, 02:13:53 PM »
Im not that worried about close combat armys actually. Obviously the Deciever will move into the way of assaulters, but the monolith will also mess with close combat specialists. First the big model will simply move and stand in the way. Second the Deciever can leave close combat in the oppenents close combat phase leaving a nice cluster of unengaged models begging for Monolith pie plate attention.


I do worry about shooty armys. A defenite weakness of the list is that the Warriors will die to str. 8+ ranged weapons  without a chance for WBB. The rest of the list is pretty safe though. Deciever, Monolith and the toughnes 5 models all dont need the orb (against shooting).

I dont think this weaknes of the Warriors is desastrous though. Even without WBB Warriors are still pretty cheap "Marines", who are known to withstand a lot of shooting given the occasional cover etc.. 6 LasPlas Marines for example cost more then 19 pts per average model and are considered very dureable.



A common choice in 40k is to use either more models, or less models with options that increase individual survivability. In this case an option is the Lord with Orb that comes at the cost of 8 Warriors. I find this pretty expensive, because it means you have to use the orb more then 5 times per game on average (lets say the Lord is worth 3 Warriors)  to gain durability.


Foxfire your suggestions seem to boil down to what opponents one is likely to face. Against Imp Guard your suggestions are defenitivly an improvement. The ability to deal with 2+ saves strongly diminishes though with losing both the Monolith and the Heavy Destroyers.

Heavy Destroyers seem to be quite well priced. 3 cost 50 points more then a Predator Annihilator (3 Lascannons) but move 12" and all shoot. Also they dont get stunned.

Offline Foxfire

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2007, 02:45:23 PM »
I'm of the opinion that you are mistaken in some of your beliefs.  The Monolith's particle whip won't help you with 2+ saves most of the time, it's only effective against power armor.  Also, the point I made to you was indeed about shooting.  If you need me to run the numbers, I can, the fact of the matter is that regardless of toughness, if 1850 points of Space Marines, IG, Tau, Chaos, or any other army semi-capable at range manages to kill ten soldiers at a time(not unusual at all at those points), it won't matter that you have a Monolith.  The 'within 6'' rule still applies, so if your squad of Immortals catches most enemy heavy weapons at once(which they will if your enemy is smart), and ten of them fall, you're looking at losing four or more straight up without WBB, unless you crammed them together, in which case you're likely to have lost more than ten.

As to 2+ saves, your only real strength comes from the Deceiver and the Heavy Destroyers.  The Heavy Destroyers cost 90 points more than the Deceiver, but the vast majority of 2+ saves that are detrimental to you come in the form of close combat opponents, which the Deceiver is equipped to handle on his own.  This means that your Heavy Destroyers aren't all together necessary for your battle plan.  Furthermore, they only handle a few different sorts of opponents, and are less survivable than standard.  Heavies have their place, but for your list, typical Destroyers would be better.  That's all I'm saying.  If you think about it, even if you were facing an all Terminator army, your 390 point investment in Heavies will only kill an average of two or three per turn.

As to the Tomb Spyders, I was addressing a defensive issue that concerns your army.  You have forgone a Resurrection Orb because it isn't all that necessary in your army, but they are still highly susceptible to the 6' rule.  If you're going to go without guaranteed WBB rolls, you want to at least stock up on models, and your desire to take three massive point sinks in your army is making that impossible.

Also, as far as prices between Destroyers and Predators as well as between Necron Warriors and Marines, you can't compare prices between armies, both types of Destroyers are well priced with comparison to other armies, and that is because the Necron army has rules which makes it foolish to just stock up on the big guns.  Likewise, Warriors and Marines function in different ways, which account for their relative costs.  Ultimately you'll do what you want, but I feel your analysis is off. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 03:53:52 PM by Foxfire »

Offline TheGreatAvatar

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2007, 03:54:44 PM »
Im not that worried about close combat armys actually. Obviously the Deciever will move into the way of assaulters, but the monolith will also mess with close combat specialists. First the big model will simply move and stand in the way. Second the Deciever can leave close combat in the oppenents close combat phase leaving a nice cluster of unengaged models begging for Monolith pie plate attention.
Without a ResOrb you should be worried about CC.  Most elite CC units have power weapons of some fashion.  Power weapons are the Necron's Achilles' heel.  The Deceiver is not very mobile thus your opponents can generally avoid him.

Remember, if a Necron unit is swept in CC the entire unit is lost without any chance for WBB.  This is huge.  I can't tell you the number of times eleven warriors were pulled of the table because one lone warrior was damaged in combat.  Initiative 2 just plain sux.

Note:  If you use the Monolith's pie plate you can't teleport a unit out of CC.  Also, be careful with the Deceiver.  If he gets completely surrounded he can't leave CC.


Quote
I do worry about shooty armys. A defenite weakness of the list is that the Warriors will die to str. 8+ ranged weapons  without a chance for WBB. The rest of the list is pretty safe though. Deciever, Monolith and the toughnes 5 models all dont need the orb (against shooting).
Yes, two of your most expensive units are immune to insta-kill but those two do not contribute to your PO number.  There are enough S10 weapons out there to be just a bit concerned for the T5 models.  However, shooting is generally the least of your concerns.  Your army generally gets a WBB and if an entire unit is lost it can still come back (provided a like unit is near by).

Quote
I dont think this weaknes of the Warriors is desastrous though. Even without WBB Warriors are still pretty cheap "Marines", who are known to withstand a lot of shooting given the occasional cover etc.. 6 LasPlas Marines for example cost more then 19 pts per average model and are considered very dureable.
"Cheap marine"?  That's first time I've heard a Necron Warrior described in those terms.  You're paying three points more for a slower marine without access to any wargear.  The two key elements of a Necron Warriors the Gauss Blaster and the ability for WBB.  I agree the Necron Warrior is a very durable model but don't think of the as cannon fodder.  And don't underestimate the power of the WBB (or the Necron's reliance on it, remember PO). 


Quote
A common choice in 40k is to use either more models, or less models with options that increase individual survivability. In this case an option is the Lord with Orb that comes at the cost of 8 Warriors. I find this pretty expensive, because it means you have to use the orb more then 5 times per game on average (lets say the Lord is worth 3 Warriors)  to gain durability.
Hmmm.  An interesting interpretation of the functionality of the Lord.  It doesn't appear you fully understand the Lord's ability to use the ResOrb.  The Orb affects all units with a model within range of the Orb.  The means the Lord can (and generally does) support several units simultaneously.  I know I've used the Orb more than fives times in a game on just one unit let alone the entire army.  If you want to talk about numbers, put the Lord in the center of a phalanx and his per unit cost can easily drop to under thirty-five points per unit.

As a counter, eight additional warriors increase your PO by two but still doesn't help retain the chance for WBB.  I know I sound like a broken record but if your units get into CC there's going to be problems and most the Deceiver can't help with.


Quote
Foxfire your suggestions seem to boil down to what opponents one is likely to face. Against Imp Guard your suggestions are defenitivly an improvement. The ability to deal with 2+ saves strongly diminishes though with losing both the Monolith and the Heavy Destroyers.

Heavy Destroyers seem to be quite well priced. 3 cost 50 points more then a Predator Annihilator (3 Lascannons) but move 12" and all shoot. Also they dont get stunned.
As FF pointed out, the Monolith does nothing for the S2 model.  Heavy Destroyers while appearing cool on paper had a real hard time earning back their points. Granted they don't get stunned but it doesn't take much for them to get shot down and their small unit size makes them vulnerable to losing their WBB roll.




Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2007, 08:01:16 PM »
Your list is nice and competitive and I would use it as is, no modifications.

I'm surprised you actually came up with it, having apparently not played Necrons yet. Most Necron players don't identify that this style of play with the Necron army is possible, let alone feasible, until they've had quite a bit of experience under their belt.

Out of curiosity, do you play another army, and/or is there a Necron player in your area who runs T5 heavy lists?

I've seen similar lists that run 12 odd Destroyers in place of the Immortals, but I think the Immortals could work well with some care in manuveuring. Not as fast, but more survivable.

2 HQs for a Necron army is very rarely a good idea. I've tried to explain the mathematical and strategical reasoning behind why sinking 140+ points into an extra lord with orb is generally a poor idea to TGA before, but it fell through then as well ;)

Offline TheGreatAvatar

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2007, 08:39:10 PM »
2 HQs for a Necron army is very rarely a good idea. I've tried to explain the mathematical and strategical reasoning behind why sinking 140+ points into an extra lord with orb is generally a poor idea to TGA before, but it fell through then as well ;)

Uh, HY, his doesn't even have ONE orb let alone two. :o  I've been playing a lot of games lately with the Deceiver (play an all Destroyer army!) and the army plays well until it gets into HTH and that is with a very mobile army.  His army as listed is not very mobile.  Yes, the Monolith does help but the lack of orb will make the army vulnerable to CC.  All his opponent needs to do is get two units into HTH then he'll have to decide which unit to lose.

Most other armies just ignore the Deceiver and without an orb in the army wait and see just how long the Warriors are going to survive S8 weapons.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 12:33:47 AM by TheGreatAvatar »


Offline Foxfire

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2007, 09:53:55 PM »
Huh, seems like some of the resident afficionado's are having a disagreement.  Yellow, I'd prefer it if you didn't turn this into a personal skirmish between yourself and Avatar, if you please.  Everyone may have different views on our friend's list, including myself, but that's no reason to dredge up past arguments and grievances.  I'd like for this to remain a relatively open discussion, rather than have people dig trenches which they began in other discussions.

When it comes to the concept of this style of play, I don't think anyone here outright said it wasn't feasible.  What I suggested was compensating for the list's major weaknesses by taking points out of what I considered its minor strengths, and in so doing keeping the main theme of high toughness with no Resurrection Orb.  My worry was mostly that of ranged adversaries getting the better of our friend's low phase out number and lack of WBB by attacking him in a way that the Orb wouldn't have helped anyway.

Avatar's advice was concerned mainly with close-in threats overcoming 2-6y's defensive capacities, and his lack of the traditional defenses creating new holes that he wasn't accounting for.  No where in his argument did he mention taking two HQ's, he argued the point that a traditional Lord was not as ineffective as 2-6y's mathematical analysis deduced based on spacial details not accounted for.  He was arguing with a point made by the original poster. 

You, on the other hand, have taken it as it is due to its resemblance to what I assume is your own playing style, and that's fine.  Still, I don't want to log in tomorrow and find twelve new replies on this topic because you two started sniping each other.  Maybe I'm overreacting, but let's keep it as impersonal as possible, yes?

   

Offline Halfpast_Yellow

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2007, 11:28:43 PM »
Sorry :( it was just an offhand comment because it had come up before. I didn't intend to dig any trenches.

I see this type of list template more and more now. The C'tan/min T4/max T5/Monolith lists...

The problem I see with dropping the Lith and Heavies is that granting re-rolls to the expensive Cron types is always going to be pretty darn useful, the ability to teleport of out combat is a nice failsafe, and given the general rise of Carnifexes, Hive tyrants, Wraithlords, WraithGuard, and Avatars..The heavy Ds are pretty nice to have.


Offline 2-6y

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »
Thanks for the comments. Im happy that this could spark some interest in you veteran players.

Ive been playing Space Wolves exlusivly since I started two years ago. The idea of using Ctan, then dropping the Lord and compensating with t5 was inspired by a friend of mine losing horribly to Nidzilla.

Offline I Drank What?

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 04:14:11 PM »
Note:  If you use the Monolith's pie plate you can't teleport a unit out of CC.  Also, be careful with the Deceiver.  If he gets completely surrounded he can't leave CC.

Hi Avatar, I think you're wrong about the Deceiver.  If he's surrounded in CC and decides to leave according to the BGB you ignore models that were in close combat with you for determining crossfire etc.  If however you're refering to another reason as to why he can't leave CC if surrounded I'd love to hear it.  But I can't for the life of me think of any reason.

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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2007, 10:24:30 PM »
Bar the Heavy Destroyers, I'm actually having good vibes with this list.  I'd switch them for regular Destroyers, and buy some Scarabs with your free points.

Thus you can use the Scarabs to tie down enemy assault troops (possibly until the Deceiver can reach the combat and finish it off), while you Deep Strike the Monolith in on top of the opjective and use it to teleport all your infantry onto it.  In a 5 turn game, you should be able to get all of them there relatively intact.

You should also use the Monolith as an assault denial tool, getting it's bulk in the way of the enemy's path and teleporting your Necrons behind it - preferably the Immortals, so they can still fire 24" underneith it and still be protected from assault.

It's a nice and different list.  Me like, so me give thumbs up.

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Offline Imperialis Mortis

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Re: Competitive 1850 pts - possible without orb?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2007, 11:09:55 PM »
Seeing this list makes me want to giggle and tickle some stuffed animals. Insanity aside though the list is fine except for a few minor things which have already been mentioned. The first is that the heavy destroyers just aren't as great as you'd think, on paper it all looks wonderful, but so does 400 deep striking imperial guardsmen with carapace armour. Against a shooting army you have to be very careful with this list, while your units can shoot under a monolith, others can as well, they just have to take an ld test, which for the vast majority of shooty armies(imperial guard included) is not difficult at all. Only a shooty nid army would have trouble in that department, that or orks. As for 2+ saves, you should know by playing space wolves the only things that are ever 2+ are characters and terminators, very rarely is there anything else which is 2+, in fact I can hardly even think of any of army which has a 2+ save character that was built for shooting. As you should be aware you can't shoot into cc, and anything 2+ is heading for CC. Your monolith is a speed bump, and not much else, while it will soak up huge amounts of firepower, I sincerely hope you don't face a guard list like mine, that is, with 3 fully loaded plasmacannon demolisher tanks. Regardless of the setup of this list you need something that can back up your troops, don't rely on the C'tan and the monolith alone, remember the C'tan lost the ancient war due to numbers. A spyder here would be invaluable, and as mentioned removing the heavy destroyers for their lighter, and much cheaper counterparts is a good idea. Some scarabs would be nice to add another small speed bump, and cause of their size, you can shoot over their heads too!
All in all, I think your list is alright, it needs some work, but its not a bad rough draft, and the idea of ignoring a res. orb will definitely draw in a few unwitting victims.
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