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Author Topic: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads  (Read 3875 times)

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Offline Cavalier

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The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« on: February 28, 2015, 07:11:31 AM »
Hey guys this something I'd advocated for a long time in replies to various individual posts but I thought I'd throw it out to a large audience.

So I love Dire Avengers they are my favorite unit in 40k. I love them so much I have 50 fully painted! Anyway ever since 6th edition I have seen them used as scoring/obsec upgrade to Wave Serpents much like the DAVU of years past. Now during 6th my self-imposed rule of big squads was more of a fluff rule for myself but boy has it payed off in 7th edition.

With the the jink/snapshoot mechanic of 7th edition my big squads of Dire Avengers have become an incredible resource to me. When those Wave Serpents jink it can really gut your volume of anti-infantry fire but when you've got those big squads of Avengers on the ground it gives you the chance to instantly get back in the fire fight and with the bladestorm rule my 2 or 3 squads laying down 16-20 rending shots is nothing to sneeze at.

Also when your Serpents go down (and at least 1 out of 3 I run usually do) you have a squad that can add reliable value to your army. The 5 man squad is just really ineffectual and any losses pretty much knock them out of the game but with just a couple of squads at 8 strong, using battle-focus you can have a great mobile fire base that can keep you in the game if your Serpents go down.

In closing while units like my Hornets, Nightwing and Wraithknight do a lot of the heavy lifting countless times its been the Dire Avengers that emerge in the middle-to-late turns of the game and ratchet up the pressure on my opponent as I suffer casualties grabbing critical objectives, laying down additional firepower. But they key is multiple big squads of 8-10 to maintain volume of fire and decent resilience.

Thoughts?
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 09:31:04 AM »
I usually run my Avengers in units of 9 models. They are probably the one unit battle focus works best with since you can either on first turn move, run and then shoot things turn one, even when you get the first turn.

In later turns you can move them just within range for their guns, fire and then run the whole unit outside of that range which is usually sufficient to avoid rapid fire or charges in return.

It is also very useful to move-shoot-move around corners of LoS-blockers such as buildings.

You are right in that only 5 models won't do much damage, and will die from any unit dedicating their fire towards them, but a large unit can avoid this, and also a larger unit is less of a subject to morale tests for loosing 25%.

5 models however is cheaper and are enough to take objectives.

9 Avengers statistically kills 3.33 MEQ, 2 of these from pseudo-rending.

The problem with a large unit of avengers is to get them within range to fire and then getting them out of range, without clustering them as barrage weapons and heavy flamers will hurt them badly.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 12:43:37 PM »
I usually run 8 or 9 man Avenger squads. I'd run them 10 strong, but I turned 2 of my 10 models into exarchs.  The only purpose I see to minimum Avenger squads is to spam wave serpents with objective secured, and that always ruffled my feathers.  My large avenger squads (and even their exarchs) always do me proud.  With a little luck, you can get a scary amount of rending out of them.  That 4+ armor makes a huge difference over guardian armor, and a seer tends to compliment this unit very well.  Also, I've been using my exarch to turn my avengers into a tarpit unit these days. It isn't as effective as it was back when we had defend, but the exarch's powersmake him a wonderfully annoying way to shut down power klaws or special characters in other squads. If a farseer is in the neighborhood with Fortune, he can make your shimmer shield reasonably impressive. And then the assault units can descend, usually in the form of allied incubi.

Avengers are great.  They can scathe most units in the game that aren't AV 11+ vehicles, they punch back in melee just hard enough to make your opponent know he hasn't assaulted  pushovers, and they can pin the enemy down in melee with a little luck.

Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #3 on: March 1, 2015, 04:46:23 AM »
Glad to see I'm not the only one who takes large squads of Avengers. It's the look of aspect warriors that got me in to Eldar in 4th edition and whilst I like the look of the vehicles and have a load of them DAVU doesn't appeal to me at all. Fluffwise I dont know why bonesingers cannot mass produce in preparation for battle and arm everyone on the craftworld with personalised dreadknight battle suits or their own dedicated transport gunships (this is my unit of 10 dire avenger-dreadknights and over there is my unit of 6 fire dragon-dreadknights). So I can imagine DAVU spam being a legit thing but it really seems belittling to the army when youre only taking avengers because of "troop tax" or to get more currently in fashion wave serpents.

9 is my go to number. As a previous person mentioned my 10th body was built as an Exarch and they don't do much atm so I don't often take them. I'll run 8 sometimes but never less than that. So generally it's 3x9 or 4x8.

One thing I have noticed over the years is their high leadership is a real boon. With assault weapons, better than standard human weapon skill, decent armour save combined with the aforementioned leadership means they are capable of tying up heavy weapon teams. Whilst they may not win the combat they're likely to  stop the heavy weapons from shooting for a long time. Provided no dedicated melee unit comes along of course. This is something a small squad of avengers cannot really achieve.

Occasionally I may have a squad under perform but generally they're rock solid. They might not carry my army to victory by themselves but they provide a solid foundation for the rest of my army to build upon.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #4 on: March 1, 2015, 07:34:20 AM »
Great points by all you guys.

@Aoitora- Yeah the high leadership is one of the reasons I value them so highly. These guys stick around and much like their name implies, I usually throw them into dire situations and I need them to hold. I've had the same experience as you these guys are rock solid. If they had oldschool bladestorm they'd be insane... still waiting for a formation or dataslate that will give it back! :)

@Wyldhunt- I like the Exarch upgrade with shimmershield as well. I usually don't run it but in higher points games (2000+) I certainly would. I'm so used to the 8-9 man squads missing the extra 2 shots from the Exarch is no big deal, and to give them a little added protection is very nice and like you said thats especially if you have a Farseer with fortune. Great commando unit that go in and get their hands dirty.

@Fenris- Right on. Very true about barrage/flamer weapons as I know that pain from playing IG so many times. For me thats mitigated by not getting my DA's out of their rides until the last 2-3 turns of the game when most of those threats are gone. When its all lasguns and boltguns the DA's excel.
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Offline davethemadorc

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #5 on: March 1, 2015, 07:50:50 PM »
the only major problem with DA is their inability to hurt high T units once in combat.  our meta runs lots of high T units - and the poor DA just dont cut it.

outside of that i think max unit with shimmershield is the way to go - at high point games the 65pt squad hiding in the vehicle until turn 4/5 isnt so wasteful but under 1850pts it chews up too many points

also in 7th now that everyone has got a handle on overwatch  and taking casualties by 'fake' charges the unit size of 10 for T3 units is a weakness that can be exploited;
im starting to think that for 'boots on the ground' the 20 guardian blob with all the extras is probably a better bet ! - but for mech-dar the DA is a go to.


Offline Ibushi

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #6 on: March 5, 2015, 07:01:14 PM »
Recently when I've had the choice between 10 Guardians and 10 DAs, and I know I'm keeping them in my serpent for the first 2 turns, I have actually been using 10 Guardians to great effect for the extra 40 points back.

Especially if you dont buy a weapons platform, people are reluctant to shoot guardians because it seems like a waste.

But if these guys have to do some heavy heavy lifting, I do love a good squad of DAs.

@davethemadorc can you explain what you mean by exploiting the weakness of 10 unit size T3 models? I'm curious as to what you mean.
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Offline davethemadorc

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #7 on: March 6, 2015, 08:42:40 AM »
Recently when I've had the choice between 10 Guardians and 10 DAs, and I know I'm keeping them in my serpent for the first 2 turns, I have actually been using 10 Guardians to great effect for the extra 40 points back.

Especially if you dont buy a weapons platform, people are reluctant to shoot guardians because it seems like a waste.

But if these guys have to do some heavy heavy lifting, I do love a good squad of DAs.

@davethemadorc can you explain what you mean by exploiting the weakness of 10 unit size T3 models? I'm curious as to what you mean.

most armies can take their solid troop choices in relatively large units [necrons/DE/orcz/IG/CSM/Tau] and  ordniary marines are tough and have a good save so are resilient and can still use two weapons from inside a 'metal box'.

Eldar are almost universally restricted to the 'ten dar unit' - even though WAVZ can take 12 bodies and not everyone wants to stick two 'hq's in every WAVZ.

Thus in a meta of 'mass firepower' 'high strength weapons' and fairly efficient overwatch [everyone by now has a handle on how to exploit charge distances] a unit of 10 T3 bodies with only average armour [forced to the x+ IV] is going to fold up like wet toilet paper !

they are lovely models and in 'big' games [say 2500+] they have a solid use as a mobile firebase / counter attack / blocker, in smaller games they are a 'cheap' way to get a WAVZ onto the field - and mb an opponent will ignore 5 that keep battle focusing out of harms way !

but 10 squishy dar is a tempting target - especially at morale 9 -  3 bodies to kill - 16% chance of them running off. roughly 25% easier to do than against csm/marines  and dont even think of a quick pop working against Necrons !

I've had to edit out some stats for the same reasons as with a couple of your previous posts.  Take a look at our forum rules for further details: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?action=rules - Iris.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2015, 10:40:26 AM by Irisado »

Offline Dread

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #8 on: March 7, 2015, 12:03:38 AM »
I'm really glad to see a post like this. It shows some really good ideas for fielding Da's. Iknow that for a lot players, the area you play in also dictates what you will or won't take in any army. Now that being said, I take wraithguard/blades for my troops or jetbikes when I'm going for that fast invasion type. I own plenty of DA and guardians and unfortunetly they do not see the light out of the box anymore. They became more of a liability in my gaming group and I just refuse to take the min squads just to take a lot of serpents, which is weird since I own so many. NOW, after reading the above posts, btw great job guys, I just may dust mine off in the near future and give 'em another go but I will take exarches with shimmer shield. 7th ed with the tactical objectives actually opens up possibilities. Thanks for opening my eyes to this mostly looked over unit.
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Offline murgel

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2015, 04:56:46 AM »
My DA provide me with a fairly large threat bubble. Provided there are a significant number of them. Thus I almost always use full squads. And I most often have them in the thick of things so I use 2 Squads most of the time. The Exarch providing them with the invuln gives them the resiliance I like.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2015, 07:09:55 AM »
Really glad to see so many of you guys on the same page as me, especially considering I know that a bunch of you are veteran Eldar players well versed in what works and what doesn't... especially going back to the 5th edition days where trimming the fat was a life and death decision with some very heated debates going back and forth on these boards over points efficiency. I wasn't sure what the response would be, so glad to see it so positive towards a classic unit.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2015, 08:05:08 AM »
As you just say this is a classic unit, therefore before even concidering there efficenty they have that small old school impact on the player.

I really enjoyed reading into this it gives a lot of great idea right and left to make this units somethings else than a spamming serpent accessory. Ty for that Cavalier it open my eyes on this units strength.

But i have a question more personnal to you all... What do you think about the guy's from the model view point, i mean what do you think of the model. When i started to want to build eldar back in 4th ed i had this unit in front of me and i was like... don't  want them, they are bad looking one. Reading throught there rules back had me reconcider it. Today i am starting to like the way they look ... so what do you guy's  think about this?
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Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2015, 09:24:35 AM »
I love the look of them. Alien and enigmatic (perhaps?) but also noble.
I got in to the Eldar at the end of 4th (having done 3k of Space Wolves and 2k of 13th Company so I was over Marines) based purely on how  awesome the aspect warriors looked. I can see compared to the Dark Eldar range that the Avengers might appear dull/boring in appearance.

If you wanted to mix it up a bit you could kit bash with the Dark Elar. Scourge legs with DA torso might look pretty good.

Also a good paint job can also make something look a lot better IMO.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2015, 12:04:27 PM »
I love the models. Every once in a while, I wake up and decide I'm not a huge fan of the helmets, but I like those most days too.  I've only ever purchased one box of them, but that was back when you got twice as much as you do now, and I'm *still* working all the snazzy exarch bits into new coversions. :)

The loin cloths and grenades also look great.

Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2015, 01:55:08 PM »
I'm not too sure about large DA squads because I haven't used them. I have however been using a squad of 11 guardians with a starcannon platform crammed into a wave serpent. They have more firepower then a DA unit since they have an extra shuricat and an extra starcannon. They only thing is that they probably won't be around the next turn. So if you are comparing the two units then the DA squad is probably better if they survive to shoot at something the next turn (which they are much more likely to do than guardians). The guardian squad is 11 points cheaper, so not much of a difference. With psychic support these guys have taken out wraithknights, riptides, termy squads and daemon princes for me. The only games they've survived is the ones that my opponents concede after getting kicked so hard in balls by lowly guardians

Offline davethemadorc

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2015, 02:01:14 PM »
I'm not too sure about large DA squads because I haven't used them. I have however been using a squad of 11 guardians with a starcannon platform crammed into a wave serpent. They have more firepower then a DA unit since they have an extra shuricat and an extra starcannon. They only thing is that they probably won't be around the next turn. So if you are comparing the two units then the DA squad is probably better if they survive to shoot at something the next turn (which they are much more likely to do than guardians). The guardian squad is 11 points cheaper, so not much of a difference. With psychic support these guys have taken out wraithknights, riptides, termy squads and daemon princes for me. The only games they've survived is the ones that my opponents concede after getting kicked so hard in balls by lowly guardians

one guardian has to 'fire' the platform - so do you mean you have 12 or 11 ?  not sure if platforms take up transport space ? they didnt used to !

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2015, 02:03:37 PM »
Platzform do take a transport space and you have to fire it so you don't  have more shot than dire avenger i am sorry but you have been cheating up until now ^^
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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2015, 02:28:16 PM »
a no I have been using a guardian to fire the platform lol just brain farted while I was typing. The starcannon is pretty huge though. You get to fire 10 shuriken catapults + the starcannon. And yeah 11 guardians + the platform is max capacity

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2015, 07:19:02 PM »
Even with battle focus the short range of the Guardians gives them little chance of survival at least in my meta... and every infantry unit in my army is essential for scoring purposes especially in maelstrom games. Like you said the points difference isn't attractive enough to make the switch at least for me.
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Offline davethemadorc

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Re: The Value of Large Dire Avenger Squads
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 07:48:26 AM »
actually never tried guardian defenders in a transport - tend to run full size blobs  i suppose it might keep smaller units alive for a bit longer or allow them onto objective !
and yes 11 and a platform would be far cheaper than the DA

 


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