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Author Topic: Musings on Space Marine Tactics  (Read 1501 times)

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Offline cormarrr

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2008, 04:22:36 PM »
I've had some pretty opposite results compared to the OP.

I like the dreadnaught model so I have tried to play with them over and over.  At best he kills one or two things before he gets blown up or immobilised.  He never makes it to assault where he arguably can do some real damage.  Of course I play against a fair bit of Marine, Chaos Marine, and Ork players meaning I see lots of Power Fists.  I have tried Drop Podding them in.  Even with good Pod placement the dread suffers from "OMG kill it NOW!" syndrome since they know it is going to charge next turn if it can.

I have found Predators to be much more survivable with AV13 and they have the speed to either get away from the enemy or head across the battlefield should the enemy be hiding behind cover.

I have found Devastators to be too expensive.  Normally what happens is a transport runs right in front of them and blocks their LOS.  This requires the squad to waste a turn shooting at a transport instead of a "real" threat or they have to move to get into a better position.  Due to their limited mobility, 6", if the battle shifts to another side of the board then they have to walk over there and if they are walking - they aren't shooting.  Oftentime by turn 2-3 there is close combat and vehicles have had time to move into cover.

I love me some Power Fists.  There are some reasons for take a PW over the PF and those have been noted.  However one that hasn't yet been talked about is the intimidation factor.  I use a lot of them and before I get assaulted I am always asked, "does that squad have a PF?" (despite being WYSIWYG - I think it is denial).  It at least gives them pause and perhaps they decide to head somewhere else.  Try again after rereading the assault rules - I think you'll change your mind.
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Offline Moto Gaheris

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2008, 08:42:34 PM »
Its funny Cormarr that you admire the Scare tactic of WYSIWYG with a PF when you also mention that opponents are Scared S___less when you place dread on the board. 
     Maybe its the army size here that really relates to what works and what doesn't.  1k pt and a pfist Looks HUGE to an opponent. So does a Dread.  1.5k pts and the Pfist is still not a threat, but not like the Double-wide trailer sized mobile Monster with a Meltagun or flamer attached to it  Does.  When 1k games are your Arena, the Pfist is definetly a Big Deal in a small Wrapper.  The Dread may be too over the top threatening. In 1.5-2k size the Dread fits right in next to a Terminator squad , Or a Predator.  The Fact that Dreads are slow (like Terminators) really is what limits your Army-Ideal.   
   The Dreadnought is something that Lives for CC.  It has some Variants that allow it to become a Meaningful part of a Shooty army, but to begin with it is given a DCCW, something that really makes Armored companies Fret.  A Pod, some Smoke, some xtra armor and VOILA, It'll make it into CC and tie up a unit in the back of the enemy lines before your Assault Marines can et their!
    Again its about choosing the weapon that will balance your army.  Dreads wont stand a chance against say Tau or Chaos, thay have too many high strength long range weapons that can hit a Barn at 48" (And i'm lookin at you IG players  ;)  ).  Against say Nid, IG, and Eldar I've had great success.
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Offline Platypuss_Red

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2008, 09:13:57 PM »
Devastator squads are IMO one of the crappiest options in the space marine codex....

They are way too static.... way too situational, and almost never make their points back when playing against most well balanced armies-- IME, mostly because they're just way too easy to ignore, and deny LOS to.  And because they're heavy support; they deploy first...  Infiltrating dev squads can work, but just remember that their efficiency goes down a great deal whenever alpha is rolled for mission--33% of the time.  All in all, their points are best spent elsewhere.


Offline xendofanerax

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2008, 10:56:14 AM »
Quote
Devastator Squads are the best heavy support choice for non-assault oriented armies.  Fielding four lascannons, infiltrating, and remaining in cover almost ensures you will down any enemy armor you target.  Yes, it is an expensive unit, and perhaps four missile launchers is more economical against light infantry / MEQ.  Still, I prefer this unit to almost any other heavy support choice.

I love that unit too, okay its 320pts but what other unit has a good chance at taking out a landraider with one round of shooting. Heck taking out 2 battle tanks of any type makes it worth it. Id rather pat the extra 60pts for lascannons.

Offline Windswept

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 05:35:18 PM »
I swear by Devastators but there is a reason behind this.. Being a Dark Angel Player i love combat squads.  take 10 marines in Dev squad and do Las,Las, Plas, Plas... or Lasx4.  To get around the deployment issues i just split them into Combat squads both sides of the table and wait for targets to come into range.  With the extra 3 guys in each squad my chances of not losing a heavy weapon are better than a tanks.  I will take a 10 man devastator squad and put it up against any 2 tanks made...period!  I am almost positive ill take the tank out or prevent it from shooting almost every turn.  I have taken 2 Dev Squads at 10 man (Expensive i know) but i took every piece of armor off the board by turn 2. 

Combat Squads make Devastators far more devastating.....

Offline The Swiss Army

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 07:25:33 PM »
I have less experience than some of these guys, but I've been playing for about a year, and I think I have some input that may be useful.

First, on devastators: I used to love these guys, too, until I realized that, more often than not, they are overkill. This is not because I'm hugely lucky (I'm not)--you just don't see many lists with lots of land raiders or Leman Russes (Necron lists with lots of monoliths being the exception). A single twin-linked lascannon shot from a Predator Annihilator will almost always hit, and usually damage something with AV 12 or below. However, while this is true, the far more valid complaint about devastators is that they are very, very static. A decent opponent (or just one without a lot of armor) will be perfectly capable of keeping his vehicles out of your LOS, unless you have a lot of devs (impractical because they're so expensive) or are really good at deploying them. Mobility in your AT is really important, I think.

I personally don't use las-plas squads, so I don't have much input on them. They don't really fit with my list, which is very mechanized and, if not terribly assault-oriented, still relies on getting close. While way cheaper, they suffer the same weakness as devs in that they're too static.

Dreadnoughts I like quite a lot, though not in the way they've been talked about here. I take a venerable, tank-hunting dread with twin-linked lascannon and a missile launcher. I fully understand that it's crazily expensive for an AV 12 vehicle, but the anti-armor devastation it brings is more than worth it. That's a twin-linked s10 shot (essentially--I know it's not actually s10) and a s9 shot, both of which can fire while moving. Furthermore, the dread doesn't get immobilized in normal terrain--so you can start it behind area terrain, and then march it up, guaranteeing a few shots. The venerable upgrade, by itself, isn't bad either--it makes it surprisingly more survivable, especially in cover that makes it obscured. Finally, it's perfectly capable of tying up a unit in CC, as long as they don't have any fists or things of the like--such as Dark Eldar Wytches, or other units like them--it doesn't devastate things like a normal dread, but it can simply keep a unit from being scoring, or allow you to counter-charge.

Powerfists are, in my mind, absolutely essential. You know that dreadnought thing I described, with a ranged dread tying up a squad indefinitely? It can happen you you, very easily. A dread simply will not charge a unit of marines with a fist, because it will die. It also makes your squads effective against things like monstrous creatures--even if you don't kill it, then you'll at least do quite a lot of damage. Finally, against armies of MEQs, having that fist swat down 2-3 models at the end of most combats can be huge. Someone else has already mentioned instant-killing ICs, and I second that.
As to fists in furious-charging assault squads--while it still hits last, a s9 fist is insane--against monstrous creatures and vehicles it works really well. I'll go so far as to say it's better than meltabombs against nearly any armor value, though I don't want to do the math. Meltabombs probably still are better against AV 14, but whatever.

I like Predators a lot, too. An Annihilator with heavy bolter sponsons is mobile, dangerous to nearly anything, more durable than you think (though they get slaughtered from the sides and rear--keep them well back), and quite cheap, for what it can do. You almost get two for the price of a land raider. I do, however, agree with running several--they work best in groups, and you certainly have to have other armor in your list to use them well. A list with only 1-3 vehicles is going to be out of armor very, very quickly--you have to spread out the opponent's AT fire.

Finally, Tornadoes are phenomenal. They die very quickly, yes, but do enough damage to compensate. They rip light vehicles (which are often more expensive than they are) to tiny pieces, do a lot of damage to just about any infantry, and can take heavy vehicles out more effectively than any other unit that has a price within 60 points of what it costs. They also are very forgiving to use--if you set up poorly, it doesn't really matter for them--they'll be able to easily fix any mistakes, because they're so fast. They also save your other tanks--if an opponent has to waste a long-range, high-strength shot that will still only ever glance them in order to take one down (which happens a LOT), then your heavier stuff remains mobile and dangerous for another turn.

Sorry for how wordy this was, I get sort of carried away.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 07:28:50 PM by The Swiss Army »

Offline Arkion

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 11:49:19 PM »
No worries =)

Quote
Dreadnoughts I like quite a lot, though not in the way they've been talked about here. I take a venerable, tank-hunting dread with twin-linked lascannon and a missile launcher. I fully understand that it's crazily expensive for an AV 12 vehicle, but the anti-armor devastation it brings is more than worth it.

I own two dreads, one vanilla, the other exactly what you've described here.  And yes, it's an amazing unit.  So far it has 4 Monoliths, Fabius Bile and a Leman Russ on its list of kills, and I consider this unit my lucky charm.  Even when I don't game with it, I let it sit out nearby and watch :P

Offline Cris767

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Re: Musings on Space Marine Tactics
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 11:48:44 AM »
I think that against chaos you need to get stuck in as they have equal if not better distance firepower whilst against nids I stay away taking shots as they don't have many high distance guns.

 


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