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Offline Lockinvar

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Returning Player Looking for Help
« on: February 9, 2016, 12:24:29 PM »
So I am making a return to 40K with a couple friends of mine. As I have the most models it usually ends up with me having a 2000 pt list vs their team of two 1000 pt lists. I play either Eldar or Imperial Guard when we play on Saturday's. They play Tau and Necrons.

I've played one game with eldar so far and it went better than my imperial guard games did. Although its more like they didn't roll amazingly in their first shooting phase. Last game I played they managed to kill 40% of my guard army before my turn one.

When I played that game, my list was:

2 x Farseer with singing spear 105 each

6 Fire Dragons exarch with firepike 204

10 Striking scorpions, Exarch with scorpion claw and scorpion chainsword 267

3 x 10 Dire avengers, exarch 163 each

Crimson Hunter Exarch 160

2 x 10 Warp Spiders, Exarch with spinneret rifle

Falcon, brightlance, crystal targeting matrix 155

2 x Fireprism 125 each


My opponents like to bring:

Necrons: 2 squads of warriors, 2 squads of immortals, the flyer, 2 annihilation barges(I think he may have changed one to the chariot with the lord on it), monolith, and a lord.

Tau: Riptide with the support commander with the invul and the feel no pain and 2 shielded missile drones, Broadsides with drones, sniper drone team, pathfinders, and 2 squads of fire warriors.

The game was tilting in their favor when we had to end the game due to time constraints. They had taken out my dire avenger squad with my warlord farseer, half of a squad of warpspiders, Falcon, and some striking scorpions. They also immobilized one of my fire prisms.

This was my first big game in a long time with Eldar and I know that the list is not optimal which is why I am here. What units would you guys recommend I bring to the table, or tactics that I should use? I have a lot of eldar models at my disposal, I unfortunately do not have any wraithguard or a wraithknight to bring to the table. I have some wraithlords and such though.

I also had a rules question, If I take a dire avenger shrine in my list, do those dire avengers count as a 'core' choice? Or are they out of the typical combined arms detachment force organization chart? so I would have a list where I would have some formations and then my typical CaD chart?



Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #1 on: February 9, 2016, 12:51:20 PM »
If you take the 3 X da units as a shrine, they would be outside of your cad, and hence not benefit from the objective secured rule.
Elder have a lot of really good units. Top tier of these would be warp spiders, jetbikes, vauls wrath, and wraithknights. But really: with the exception of some special characters and maybe rangers, the elder codex is all thriller, no filler.
Against tau and neurons, dark reapers will also do very well.
If you could give us a breakdown of what units you do have available, we would be able to give you some more tailored advice.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #2 on: February 9, 2016, 09:00:50 PM »
Looks like a decent list, however very fragile with all those aspects on foot.
You should either try to get some transports for the avengers or conform to a warhost as that would give all that infantry more speed.
Also for every 3 units of aspect warriors you should really form an aspect host for them.
The Avenger Shrine is mostly just a more specific aspect host.

I would also consider getting hold of the Imperial armour 11 book "doom of mymeara" second edition, as I've heard there are some ways to replace the guardians in the core host with aspect warriors, however I do not have the book myself, so it's only a rumour.
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Offline davethemadorctwo

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 05:15:29 PM »
optimising units gives you a key for being points efficient - and getting more 'kill' on the table

if you are restricted by your army figures then not a lot you can do except proxy !

ive had some success with six dragons in a falcon - which drops them on their suicide mission and then backs up for long range fire support - but im sure most ppl would suggest swopping it for a WAVZ.

i tend to run spiderz in 7's - ten is tough to pop down safely or to manouver

i know the scoprz can 'hide' but they really need a WAVZ for safety - again after dropping them of it can move off and pick up a DA unit or go into a fire support / blocking role

not a fan of a single expensive flyer - i occasionally run my Eldar 'airwing' at 1750 pts - but put  in three crimson hunters and an autarch commander - this gives reserve manipulation and air supremacy - one on its own should get blown away by most opponents - maybe even when it shows up !

i agree with a pp - reapers are almost better than the prisms - but i like prisms. - my standard heavy support choice is three 'reaper pods' - 2 base reapers and one fully tooled exarch for the anti-air  the 'ignores jink' is a killer !  and most infantry armies absolutely hate the reapers ap - but they will work against necron & tau just as well.

good luck

Offline Lockinvar

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 07:44:50 PM »
So the reason to take the lone flyer is to take out the necron flyer. It has armour 13 front and sides because of quantum shielding and lance doesn't affect it so I would need the shots from the crimson hunter to help take it down. The dark reapers just don't have the punch to take down the necron flyer.

As for models that I have, I purchased them off a guy a long time ago so some of the models have weird converisons. Like the warlocks on jetbikes are guardians that have been given nicer weapons and capes to be warlocks. Anyways to the model list:

47 guardians with 4 weapon platforms
4 guardian windriders

30 rangers

36 Dire Avengers 7 exarchs and the phoenix lord
     30 Unbuilt DA's

18 Striking Scorpions 2 exarchs and the phoenix lord

11 Howling Banshees, 1 exarch
     12 unbuilt

10 Fire Dragons and phoenix lord

16 warpspiders and 4 exarchs

5 swooping hawks, 1 exarch, and phoenix lord
     12 unbuilt

4 darkreapers and 1 exarch

7 Farseers
     1 unbuilt

3 Autarchs

8 warlocks
     3 unbuilt

9 Warlocks on jetbikes

2 Avatars of Khaine

7 Falcons

5 Fireprisms

1 Doomweaver

10 wave serpents

5 wraithlords

4 vypers

3 chining spears in box

13 harlequins, 3 shadowseers, 1 Troupe master, 1 Death Jester
     5 unbuilt

3 warwalkers.

I think thats everything. I went through all my boxes and took out all my eldar and put them on my kitchen table to count them. Picture below, couldnt figure out how to change the name to the title or embed the image.  Eldar Models - Imgur.

My new list idea was using a Dire avenger Shrine and an Aspect host of 10 warp spiders, 10 swooping hawks and 6 fire dragons. Autarch in the warp spiders, 2 sets of 5 rangers, 2 fire prisms, a falcon, and lastly a seer council.

I was gonna hoof the seer council just because I want to see how they do in a game as I just want to try things out. I was also thinking of using the swooping hawks instead of the crimson hunter to take out the flyer. If I get 10 swooping hawks to intercept, 5 hits with haywire grenades, thats 4 hull points on the conservative side. I have no idea if I would get the intercept but I think if I start them in reserve I can position to move over the flyer with an 18 inch move.

I really want to use vypers or warwalkers but I am afraid that the low hull point vehicles would just die way to quickly to the necrons gauss weapons. Also Tau pulse rifles would be able to take them out as well. Its lame because I really like vypers with scatter lasers.

I was also wondering if its worth taking holo fields on my vehicles like falcons or fireprisms. I was thinking that it may be worth the points to help protect them.

Anyways I would like to get your guy's take on what I should do with my models. What I should take to combat necrons and Tau at 2000 points. I have to be able to deal with a monolith, the Necron flyer, broadside team with loads of drones, riptide with a support commander and some other stuff.

Thank you for the replies so far.

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 02:59:25 AM »
Top of my head, I'd got for something like:
CAD
Autarch with wings & Shard
jetbikes with scatters and warlock
large guardian blob squad with 2 x brightlances and warlock
Crimson Hunter

DA Shrine
-All in waveserpents with BLs and Holos

Aspect Shrine (+1BS)
-Swooping Hawks
-Warp Spiders
-Reapers


But theres a lot of options here: Both Tau & Necrons are weak in the assault phase, so swapping the DA shrine for a +1WS aspect shrine (Scorps and/or Hawks / DA / Banshees) could also work out for you

Then there's the fact that you're going to have the Psychic phase entirely unopposed, so maybe you go big on psykers.

Necrons are strong, but they are best in a Decurion formation with lots of wraiths, which it sounds like you are not facing. I haven't faced the new Tau yet, but BLs againt the old version were very handy -able to one-shot crisis suits & nice against their AV13 vehicles.

Good luck!
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Offline Lockinvar

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2016, 04:28:31 AM »
I agree with the lack of assault phase and the inherent weakness of tau and non cc necrons in close combat. This is why I really want to bring more striking scorpions to the table to see how they do. I am worried about howling banshees. While the power weapons will cut through the necron armour, they still have to wound T4 and then the necrons have 4+ reanimation. He always takes the detachment that gives him the 4+ reanimation instead of 5+.

Also when you say jetbikes, do you mean my warlock jetbikes? Also how many jetbikes should be in a squad to ensure combat effectiveness?

I do like the idea of a big psychic phase. Fortunes DA's have the same save as his necron warriors and would shrug off most tau infantry firepower.

I find that the biggest thing for me is that I have to take out the Tau riptide and commander unit, and the broadsides. As these units will be ripping me apart, I find that everything else is there for markerlights. I do put markerlights high on the priority list as they do really affect the game by increasing BS and ignoring cover. My issue is that while I am trying to do that, my other friend is marching up the table with his necrons and they just don't want to die with the re-rollable 4+ save effectively. When I play guard against him, I just drop S8 AP3 templates on them, then he only gets a 5+ reanimation. This I have found is the most reliable way to just take them out in quantity.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2016, 07:09:21 AM »
Hey man welcome back to the game. Eldar are riding high right now so enjoy it! Sounds like you have a pretty mighty collection! You've got great units in spades... If I were you I'd take this as a core..

Farseer- Jetbike
Scoprions x10 and a claw
Jetbikes x3- Lasers
Jetbikes x3- Lasers
Jetbikes x3- Lasers

Aspect Host
Warp Spiders x8- Exarch
Warp Spiders x8- Exarch
Swooping Hawks x6- Exarch

I'd take something along these lines as a core and then mix and match a bit to get things to suit your playstyle. IMO its always good to have at least 1 or 2 close-combat units in there... especially against Tau and Necrons. Anything that can pull their units out of the shooting phase is a good thing... and you gotta be ready to take a charge from a unit of Wraiths. The Scorpions won't do great against the Wraiths but they'll do great against anything else (including a Riptide). Just try and keep them out of LOS against Tau and get ready for a mid-game assault against Necrons.

Regardless of the list you bring... I'd capitalize on your large number of Warp Spiders in your collection. They are blistering fast, super elusive and really deadly. They'll be wounding on 2's against just about everything in the Tau and Necron army and with flicker-jump they are going to be infuriating for your opponent.

So yeah Spiders and Scorpions are my big recommendation.
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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 08:16:46 AM »
Jetbikes: I meant guardian jetbikes as you'll need the troop choice, and warlocks can't get scatter lasers on their bikes.
Red assault: scorps / scorps / banshees would be a good aspect shrine to replace the das with. Banshees target the tau infantry, scorps for everything else (but be wary of marker lights negating their cover save). The shard autarch will also do a total number on solo characters like chariot necron lords and some Tay commander builds.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 09:31:42 AM »
Banshees are actually quite awesome against necrons, not because they can cut down a lot of models, but because they can just run them down. 5 Banshees with exarch included actually has a good chance of killing 20 immortals this way if they get to assault, by winning the combat, and running them down with +4 on the D6 roll-off.

I think you can do well with your initial list with the following modifications:
-Swap 1 farseer for an autarch
-Swap both prisms for falcons, to complete the cloudstrike, mount 2 units of avengers + the fire dragons in them, give the falcons holo-fields since they work against CC.
- Spiders and Dragons form a ranged host.
- Either add a small unit of banshees,  form a melee host with scorps + banshees +the avengers on foot, OR make it an DA shrine and add 2x3 windriders(for troop choices).

You could also swap out some models from the spiders, to cram in a unit of Shining Spears.
If you can fit this along with the windriders, you could create all three:
Melee host, Ranged host and a DA shrine.

Then you could of course try to get in hawks & Reapers instead of the crimson hunter, but you would need to sacrifice something else.


A whole another way to go would be taking a battle host of guardians, both Avatars and a bunch of Wraithlords, then fill up with aspects on foot.


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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 01:06:32 PM »
I can't say much to the list, except that if you're playing on terrain with a decent amount of LOS blockers, Warp Spiders are practically invulnerable, and if you give Power Blades to your Exarchs, they will be very effective against the low CC capacity of Necrons and Tau. Plus Warp Spiders have cool minis.

As to the Necrons, their fliers DO NOT have quantum shielding, only the ground / skimmer vehicles do. QS is a rule that's applied to the Vehicles in their data sheet. Its present for the ground vehicles, but not for the fliers.

I'm not sure why a Lance shot wouldn't impact their QS pre-penetration... their AV is counted as being two points higher, then Lance would alter that a second time. If I recall, the player whose turn it is gets to choose the order in which simultaneous effects occur, so you could give the Necron vehicle the AV bump then have Lance reduce it. That's near the front of the rulebook, don't have one on me to quote a page.

Something to think about!

Offline Lockinvar

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 02:57:50 PM »
Banshees are actually quite awesome against necrons, not because they can cut down a lot of models, but because they can just run them down. 5 Banshees with exarch included actually has a good chance of killing 20 immortals this way if they get to assault, by winning the combat, and running them down with +4 on the D6 roll-off.

I have no doubt that they could sweeping advance them, it's that necrons have leadership 10 across the board, so will they run is the question. Banshees charge in with 4 attacks each on the charge: 40 attacks, 27 hit, 9 wound, 4-5 dead. With warshout I really like the chances of them running, but i'm afraid that the banshees would get torn apart by shooting on the way in. with scorpions starting at least 6 inches closer to the enemy there is a chance for turn 1 charge if I go second and they move up, or If I get some good terrain to hide in.

I think my biggest issue is that I really have to learn how to play eldar. Its one thing to have a good list, its another to be able to play it well.

But speaking of lists, taking the advice from above this is what I have come up with so far.

HQ

Autarch - Fusion pistol, shard of anaris, warp jump generator - 130

Farseer - singing spear - 105

Elites

10 x striking scorpions - exarch with claw and chainsword - 210

Troops

2 x 3 Windriders with scatterlasers - 81 each (162)

Heavy support

Falcon - brightlance, holo field - 145

Formations

Aspect Host BS+1

6 x Fire Dragons - Exarch with firepike 157

10 x Swooping Hawks - Exarch with sunrifle 185

10 x Warpspiders - Exarch with spinneret rifle 215

Dire Avenger Shrine

10 x Dire Avengers - Exarch 140

2 x 10 Dire Avengers 130

1709

So we have 291 points left to play with. I was originally going to throw in two fire prisms but you guys have advised against them in favor of falcons. My only issue if I take the formation of falcons is that they will be within rapid fire range of the necron warriors so I worry that they will be glanced to death. And being in a squadron all the hits will distribute onto the other falcons if he gets lucky. Like if he rolls 6 glances he would wreck two falcons instead of one.

I was thinking of changing hte dire avenger shrine to an aspect host and adding in another squad of warp spiders and then giving one of the DA squads a waveserpent and have the with one hoof it with the farseer. Doing that would bring the list up to 1804.

I could always add more jetbikes instead of the minimum amount, but I think I should focus on getting some heavy support on the table before I do that.

I was also planning on using the swooping hawks instead of the crimson hunter as anti air. And now that I know that the flyer does not get Quantum shielding I can take it down with a variety of things. Hell Dire avengers into the back of it could take it down.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 11:06:39 PM »
Welcome back to 40k. Impressive list of models you have at your disposal. I might be a little late chimming in, but I see a huge potential for some good old Eldarzilla with what you have available and considering what you're up against.

Taking a Guardian Host would allow you to lots of your wraithlords and both avatars and you can use the vypers and war walkers you wanted to try out.

The avatars will make your close combat units insane, which is the perfect counter for Tau and Necron shooting. You just need to get your guys into close combat and that's what the matchless agility benefit will do for you. Just run up the field, using your buffs and bubbles to keep you grounded and pester with walkers and vypers. The avatars will draw all of the enemy firepower and you should be able to keep at least one alive using the farseer, until hopefully a turn two charge with the rest of your army relatively untouched. Adding in a phoenix lord that will outflank the Tau with his scorpions will completely decimate him. If I were to set one up it would look some like this:

Guardian Host
Farseer w/ spirit stone (115)

3 units of Guardians x 10 w/ EML (270)

x 2 Vyper w/ Brightlance (100)

War Walker w/ x2 Brighlances (70)

Shadowweaver (30)

Living Legends

Avatar (195)
Avatar (195)
Karandaras (200)

Wraith Constructs
 x 3 Wraithlords (360)

Aspect Host
Scorpions x9 +exarch w/claw (210)
Banshees x9 +exarch x/executioner (150)
Warp Spiders x4 +exarch (105)

The only thing you're missing is a support battery, which I think you should be able to proxy with your extra guardian platform.

Just my 2 cents, but everyone knows I'm zilla crazy!  ::)

Offline haunt

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 07:05:10 AM »
What's with the 2 Avvies? Or is that supposed to be 1?
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 07:56:36 AM »
You're not going crosseyed, that's two you're seeing. The avatar is no longer a unique unit type in this codex. In a typical CAD you could only ever take one due to your restrictions on LOW. But, in the host you can take up to three with living legends. Phoenix Lords are only ever one because they are 'unique'.

Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
I like the double avatar build. For redundancy the second one is key! If only you had storm guardians as well!

Offline Lockinvar

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2016, 07:43:23 PM »
I like the lisT,  but I don'T think I am ready to do a close combat army yet. I want to at some point, but I think I have need more practise with eldar.

It was unfortunate but I didn't get to play today my friend bailed so I didn't get to play the list. I went with one wave serpent and a fire prism and some other upgrades just to fill it out and for variety.

I also thought that maybe I could just forgo the other vehicles and use dark reapers or another close combat squad but I am not sure.

Offline haunt

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2016, 11:08:55 AM »
It maybe unfortunate, but am glad to hear that you're not rushing in and diving into unfamiliar territories. Would you mind, I ask what models you have now? This way, we can build a list that maybe within your model count and tally?
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Offline Lockinvar

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2016, 12:09:42 PM »
I haven't gotten any new models since the last time I posted my collection which can be seen above. My birthday is on the 18th though and I did ask for warhammer so it may change later in the week, but for now  what I posted above is what I have.

Offline haunt

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Re: Returning Player Looking for Help
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2016, 02:00:43 PM »
I would build it as follow:

CAD
Farseer - Spear
Farseer - Spear

DA x10
DA x10
DA x10

Fire Dragon x6 - Exarch, Pike

Crimson Hunter - Exarch

Falcon - BL, Holo
Fire Prism - Holo
Fire Prism - Holo

Aspect Host <WS +1>
Striking Scorpion x10 - Exarch, Claw
Warp Spider x10 - Exarch, Spinneret, Powerblades
Warp Spider x10 - Exarch, Spinneret, Powerblades

Tactics is really yours to use, I chose WS for the Aspect Host, since those are best to use with it. You have your F-ragon combo, and the DAs may not be a Shrine, but they'll do good as they are used. The Hunter is not an exarch due to points, otherwise this list comes to a total of 1997.
This is where Death rejoices, as he teaches the living.

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