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Author Topic: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks  (Read 3082 times)

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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« on: November 25, 2015, 10:32:29 AM »
Hi again, 40K Online!
I haven't visited these forums in a while, and if for some reason someone recognizes me (Irisado, maybe), I'm sure you'll remember that I had trouble winning my games before. Well, in 7th ed I finally figured out how to play and thus far I'm doing very well, so this post will not be another complaint, I'm happy to say. :)

However, I'm putting together a new list which purpose is to let me use units I rarely use these days, which I love both lore-wise and the way they used to perform back in 3rd and 4th ed.
There are a few things that bug me, however, and I can't seem to decide which I think is best.
Usually, what I'm wondering is which character upgrades to keep and which to sacrifice in order to keep the points just below 2000.

First of all here's the full list in its most recent reincarnation:

Craftworld Warhost: 1998p

Core: 478p
Windrider host: 478p
- 1 Farseer Skyrunner w The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan
- 1 Warlock Conclave, 1 Warlock Skyrunner w Singing spear
- 1 Vyper Squadron, 1 Vyper w 2 Shuriken cannons
- 3x3 Windriders w 3 Scatter lasers

Auxiliary: 1420p
Aspect host: 345p
- 3x4 Reapers w Exarch

Aspect host: 355p
- 5 Banshees w Exarch w Executioner
- 5 Shining Spears w Exarch w Star lance
- 5 Scorpions w Exarch w Claw

Aspect host: 285p
- 5 Avengers w Exarch
- 2x5 Spiders w Exarch

Engines of Vaul: 435p
- Falcon Squadron, 3 Falcons w Scatter lasers, Shuriken cannons and Spirit stones

Command: 100p
- Autarch Skyrunner w Laser lance and Banshee mask

Both the Farseer and the Autarch will ride with the Shining Spears. They will Outflank.
My main concern right now is if I should exchange one Warp Spider unit for a second Dire Avenger unit. This will free up 30p that I can use to get my Reaper Exarchs Starshot missiles. As far as character upgrades go, they are quite formidable for the meager point cost.
However, while doing so will increase my anti-AV12 capacity, the overall firepower of my army will drop. Spiders hurt more than Avengers.
What do you think?

Any other opinions will be valued as well. :)
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Fenris

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 05:18:47 PM »
Hi, nice list you got there. I think you have the character upgrades done quite well.
The only thing I would change would be to give that singing spear to the farseer rather than the warlock.

I would however take a second look at the upgrades for the falcons and the windriders. I don't find scatter lasers works well with pulse lasers, any of the other options would be preferable. Since your list does not include any real AA, I think the EML's would be good.

About the reapers I would recommend you to take a look at this topic:
Fear the Reaper?

As for changing 1 unit of spiders to avengers I thing you should keep the spiders or better yet, take a unit of 6 hawks including exarch, as that will help your AA capabilities. (It'll cost you +1point, but you have 2 spare points ;))

I also have to ask what units do you intend to put into the falcons, avengers and 2x reapers?

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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 04:46:04 AM »
Hi, thanks for your reply!
The reason I gave the Singing spear to the Warlock is that he'll be on his own (maybe going AV hunting), whereas the Farseer will be riding with the Shining Spears, as will the Autarch.
While I don't intend for the Shining Spears to hunt vehicles, should I do so their speed may enable them to come around and hit the rear armor where all those s6 hits will destroy anything.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the that unit needs more AA. The Warlock might just get more use out of it. That's my line of thought, at least.

I can understand your concern about the Falcons' upgrades. I don't see what you mean with the Windriders, however. I use them to destroy AV10/11 primarily, and then infantry. The Scatter laser is the best weapon we have for that purpose, I think.
The reason I picked Scatter lasers on the Falcons though is because it is cheap and makes them good at killing infantry. My opponents rarely use AV12+, which is why you don't see much AA in the list.
EMLs are always the most expensive choice, and if AA is what you think I should get, then why not buy BLs for the Falcons?

While we're on the topic of Falcons, what do you think about the other upgrades? I opted for Spirit stones instead of Holo-fields. Is that right or wrong? I don't have enough points to spend on a lot of upgrades and, frankly, I'd love it if I could skip even the Spirit stones.

The 3 Reaper units go into the Falcons. Using the Cloudstrike rule, I Deep Strike them onto the table where I can get the most out of the Reapers.

I will keep the Spiders as per your suggestion; it makes a lot of sense even to me.

Tack!
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Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 07:17:05 AM »
Hey Iluvhir. Glad you are having success with the new codex! While I'm not a huge fan of the Battle Host (I think a standard Combined Arms Detachment is more flexible) I like the core of your army. You've got a very interesting list... personally I think the units in your Aspect host need to be increased in size. 5 Scorpions and 5 Banshees are going to have a tough go of it, even if targeted by Imperial Guard infantry squad. Its tough re-configuring when running a Battle Host, but to get something out of them they really need to be close to maximum size. 

If you wanted to increase the size of those squads, you could drop all the Reapers (you've got great anti-infantry via the Jetbikes), upgrade your Falcons with EML, and take a Crimson Hunter and you'd have anti-air duties, anti-tank and good anti-infantry fire all wrapped up into one. You could then re-invest the points into increasing the number of Banshees and Scorpions which need numbers to survive and make in impact in combat.

Anyway I really like your list. You've got a ton of variety which will make it really fun to play, but also look really cool on the tabletop. Good luck and let me know what you think!
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 08:29:29 AM »
Hi!

I get your reasoning when it comes to the CC units possibly being too small, but I'm testing them out in accordance with the MSU principle, which I've come to strongly believe in.
I used to take 10-man Banshees and Scorpion squads back in the day, I'll admit.
Nowadays, however, I've come to realize that if I buy the additional models for the squads, their durability will not increase relative to how much threat they will generate. While I know that a 10-man strong unit will naturally live longer in theory, with more models being alive once you get to charge, it also means, in practice that they will attract even more unwanted attention. A 10-man unit running with 5-man units means my opponent will never have to doubt where to pool his firepower. It's all about target saturation.
Even a full Scorpion unit with a 2+ cover save isn't all that hard to kill if you put your mind to it. A 5-man squad, however, might make your opponent reconsider if it's really worth pooling all that firepower into it.
Then there's another problem: say your 10-man unit survives - it can still only assault one unit at a time, but now you've put a lot more points into that one unit, for basically the same result. It would then be better to take 2 5 man squads. At least, that's the general idea of MSU.
Again, though, I haven't tested it on CC infantry yet, but it works for ranged units to be sure.

That being said, I personally believe the squads actually need to be bigger, just like you say, but I'm eager to see how 2 small squads works compared to one full. I didn't have the points for 2 10 man-squads, you see. I wanted both Scorpions and Banshees because the idea is to use those units again (it's been a long time for me). That's why you see 1 5-man Banshee unit and 1 5-man Scorpion unit in there, and not 2 5-man units of the same CC Aspect.

As to dropping the Reapers: they are simply too powerful to exclude. :)

The reason I use the Warhost is to make use of the guaranteed 6" run distance rule for my CC units.
Otherwise an ordinary CAD certainly is the way to go.

My main list (the one I've had such great success with, and from which the list above is derived) is as follows:

Combined Arms Detachment: 1223p

HQ: 235p
- Autarch Skyrunner w Laser lance and Banshee mask (joins the Shining Spears)
- Farseer Skyrunner w The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan and Singing spear (joins the Shining Spears)

Troops: 243p
- 3x3 Windriders, all with Scatter lasers

Heavy Support: 435p
- 1 Falcon Squadron, 3 Falcons w Scatter lasers, Shuriken cannons and Spirit stones (Deep Strikes as per the Cloudstrike rule)

Lord of War: 310p
- 1 Wraithknight w 1 Scatter laser (and whatever main weapon combo I deem necessary)

Formation Detachment: 774p

Aspect host: 419p
- 2x5 Reapers w Exarch w Starshot missiles (embarked on Falcons)
- 4 Reapers w Exarch w Starshot missiles (embarked on a Falcon)

Aspect host: 355p
- 5 Shining Spears w Exarch w Star lance (Outflanks)
- 2x5 Spiders w Exarch (One or both units Deep Strike, depending on where they are needed)

For a total of 1997p
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:38:40 AM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Irisado

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 09:43:12 AM »
Yes, I recognise you ;).

I cannot help in the same way as I did before, since I've stopped playing since seventh edition came out.  I can, however, make some observations about MSU and assault units.  In every previous edition of the game, I never found it successful for me.  The reason is that while what you say is true about target saturation and being able to assault multiple units with the surviving models if you have multiple units, Eldar don't have the necessary durability to win an assault that way.

Consider a situation in which both of those squads of Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions lose two or three models each as they advance.  Factor in overwatch and the random distance when charging and you could lose more models.  Sure, the handful of survivors might engage two units, but they're then likely to lose out either through weight of numbers in the opposing units, or, if you have reduced their intended targets in number through fire power from units of their own, kill the survivors, only to be wiped out by gun fire in your opponent's turn.  Larger unit sizes mitigate these issues to a certain extent, which is why they are still, in my opinion, more likely to be successful.

That said, if you're going to take Eldar assault units at all, the best way to do it, is probably (and I'm more than happy to be corrected here by those who are still playing) to field multiple large units, rather than multiple small units.  Multiple small units is an army type which works much more effectively with long ranged fire support units and mobile units, such as those which feature in the list you've had success with :).
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 11:07:46 AM »
I think you are right. Both of you. It makes sense.
The way I have arranged it probably won't work.
I will see if I can build a list around 10-man units instead.

Now that that's settled, I have another question for you: if you had to choose between Holo-fields and Spirit stones on your Falcons, which upgrade would you pick?
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline Fenris

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 02:48:36 PM »
With the windriders I meant you are not forced to take scatter lasers, you could save up to 90 points here, that's 11x starshot missiles for the reapers, and the TL-catapults still has the tempest of blades to compensate.

About the falcon, if you are not up against any flyers (AA=anti-air) there is of course no reason to take the EML, also if AV13-14 are rare, the BL is not needed either, so I would go for the starcannon since it has the same low AP as the pulse laser.

About the spirit stones and the holofield for the falcons, I don't thing the holofields are necessary due to your intension to have reapers embarked upon them, so they do not need to be very close to the enemy.
The spirit stones can probably be dropped too, since they only have effect 4/9 times against S8 (2/3 dmgs will be pens and only 2/3(or less) of those will be affected by the stones) and then it's still a diceroll for the stones to work.

I'd also like to mention the underslung shuriken cannons, since they will be the third weapon on the vehicle, it will mostly just snap-fire anyway, since you will probably want to move more than 6".
Sure you can opt to fire the scatterlaser and the shuriken cannon first, then snap-fire the pulse laser when shooting at infantry, but if points are scarce, here is where you could free up some points.

I also agree with the CC-units are best off as larger units, personally I like to take 9-man units, since that's optimized for avoiding morale checks due to casualties.
I wouldn't worry too much about overwatch though, both Banshees and Spears will ignore it, and the Scorps may still have those 2+ cover saves.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 04:04:00 PM »
Good advice!

Another question: if I had to choose between 10 Banshees and 10 Scorpions (along with the Spears which are too much fun to exclude), and my opponent played Marines, which Aspect would you pick?
Traditionally, I would pick the Banshees as a solid choice against 3+ saves. However, I compared number of casualties caused by a Banshee squad with an Executioner Exarch with that of a Scorpion squad with an Exarch with a Claw against T4 SV3+, and the difference is remarkably low (slightly in favor of the Banshees). However, if you take the Scorpions' durability (3+/2+ cover save) and the ability to infiltrate closer to the enemy (enabling you to charge earlier), it seems one would be a fool to even consider Banshees. Sure, the ladies may be faster on paper, but if you take into account that you'll want to move through cover and possibly even charge through cover with either unit, the Scorpions probably won't be that far behind as they have rules to compete with how Banshees Run and Charge longer distances, so long as you're assuming you're in difficult terrain (out in the open the Banshees are faster, no question).
All things considered, the Banshees may not be that much faster. Then consider again that the Scorpions may be able to start the game closer to the enemy using Infiltrate.

One thing that the Banshees have that the Scorpions don't, is the Banshee Mask, as you mentioned.
It certainly is a huge advantage vs Tau. But against other races, the Scorpions are not likely to die with a 3+ save, or a 2+ cover save if you're in terrain. Even if fired at with AP3 guns, they still have a 4+ cover save in the open. Of course that's all provided the Shadowstrike rule is still in effect.

The big difference, then, is obviously the point cost. The Banshee squad I described above is 60 points cheaper than the Scorpion squad alternative.
60 points is A LOT.

Do you guys have any preferences? I've heard that Scorpions still do fairly well in 7th ed whereas Banshees tend to fall short. Thoughts?
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Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline mikesusername

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 03:29:40 PM »
scorps all the way.  thier exarch is extreeme,  their armor/cover is better, they run a little slower but they move through cover better and they the have a distincly larger group of targets they can waste.  the 4+ auto hit is not to be take lightly, especially as it happens first.  the last time i ran these guys i had, on two diferent parts of the table,  one squad tank a space marine biker chage (with vet sarge and character) and win (after 2-3 turns)  and another take a round of fire, and then win vs 2 full units of marines charging them.  just because the regular line and file doesn't have power weapons doesn't mean they're bad.   they have higher initiive, and (if in a shrine) ws than most opponents. the only real target for banshees is tau or spacemarines,  and scorps do fine against both.  banshees cant handle high toughness opponents and they cant handle incoming firepower. 

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #10 on: December 1, 2015, 07:31:35 AM »
For me the problem is points. I already have a list, in which I basically want to swap one unit of Warp Spiders (have 2x5) for another CC unit (Banshees or Scorps). I can take 7 Banshees (including an Executioner Exarch) for (roughly) the same point cost as 5 Spiders. To take the minimal number of Scorpions with a Claw Exarch, I need to free up 20 points, either by reducing my Reaper squads (I run 3x5 Reapers in Cloudstriking Falcons) or by reducing vehicle upgrades on the Falcon squadron.

I think you are overloaded on Reapers. I know they are a very nice unit especially if you are facing bikes, but with 2x5 Warp Spiders, 3x3 Scatter Laser bikes, all the Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons on the Falcons, and the assault capabilities of the Spears and Wraithknight you've got anti-infantry more than covered.

I'd go with the Scorpions myself... very reliable against Marines. If you have a problem getting into assault with Tau a cheeky trick is to charge with your Warp Spiders, flicker-jump out of LOS and they've wasted their coordinated-overwatch. Then send in the Wraithknight and the Scorpions and watch em fold.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #11 on: December 1, 2015, 08:14:51 AM »
Cavalier: If I decide on Scorpions as per your preference, this is how I would build such a list:

Combined Arms Detachment: 1208p

HQ: 235p
- Autarch Skyrunner w Laser lance and Banshee mask (joins the Shining Spears)
- Farseer Skyrunner w The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan and Singing spear (joins the Shining Spears)

Troops: 243p
- 3x3 Windriders, all with Scatter lasers

Heavy Support: 420p
- 1 Falcon Squadron, 3 Falcons w Starcannons and Shuriken cannons (Deep Strikes as per the Cloudstrike rule)

Lord of War: 310p
- 1 Wraithknight w 1 Scatter laser (and whatever main weapon combo I deem necessary)

Formation Detachment: 792p

Aspect host: 410p
- 2x5 Reapers w Exarch w Starshot missiles (embarked on Falcons)
- 3 Reapers w Exarch, all with Starshot missiles (embarked on a Falcon)

Aspect host: 382p
- 5 Shining Spears w Exarch (Outflanks)
- 6 Scorpions w Exarch w Claw (Infiltrates for Shadowstrike)
- 5 Spiders w Exarch (Likely Deep Striking)

For a total of 2000p

What I did was I reduced one Reaper squad from 5 to 3 models and equipped the whole squad (not just the Exarch) with Starshot missiles for improved AV12 capabilities and to save up points.
I then invested those points in an additional Scorpion so I could take 6 instead of 5.

What do you guys think? The Alternative is to switch the Scorpions for Banshees. I will basically be able to take a full Banshee squad without making points adjustments elsewhere, save perhaps removing the Farseer's Singing spear.
If I remove an additional Reaper, I will even be able to take 2 5-man Banshee squads with Exarchs in the same formation as the Shining Spears, and take the Spiders as a regular Fast Attack choice but without an Exarch.
However, I do have an aversion towards sacrificing too many Reapers. They are my best killers, and I don't want to gut them too much. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 1, 2015, 08:32:44 AM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #12 on: December 1, 2015, 08:29:18 AM »
If your not going to be using the falcons as transports, then there should be no reason to deep strike them. Just start them in the board and you'll get 1-2 more turns of their firepower.

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #13 on: December 1, 2015, 08:35:51 AM »
If your not going to be using the falcons as transports, then there should be no reason to deep strike them. Just start them in the board and you'll get 1-2 more turns of their firepower.

The Reapers will begin the game embarked on the Falcons. :)
It may not be an obvious choice, given the long range of the Reapers, but the list was actually designed to beat Drop podding Marines. The Autarch gives me a little extra control over reserve rolls, and the general idea is to force his Drop pods and the Sternguards therein onto the table before my own forces arrive. I then Deep Strike the Falcons, unload the Reapers and unleash Hell. That's how I decimate his army before he can do the same to me. If the Reapers weren't protected inside the Falcons, they'd get blasted off the table before they could do any damage. And if I have to embark them on Falcons, I might as well Deep Strike to get them into just the right position for optimal destruction. >:)
Sometimes that's very near his army, and sometimes it's far away. Deep Strike lets me choose. With the Autarch I can have them arrive on the table in turn 2 on a 2+ dice roll. It's pretty neat.

If I didn't require armored protection for any infantry units or the Cloudstrike rule, I wouldn't use three Falcons to begin with. :)
That certainly would save me a lot of points, hehe.
« Last Edit: December 1, 2015, 09:04:32 AM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

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Re: 2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks
« Reply #14 on: December 2, 2015, 05:57:37 AM »
ive had great success with reaper pods in falcons.... us old timers remember the reapers being pretty shocking with no ability to move and fire ... but thanks to some devious eldar infiltration into codex writing ... they now perform even better, really not sure why they dont have a shuriken pistol for overwatch .... but hey ho ... cant have everything !

i still swear by scatlaz on falcons - just for the TL on the pulse laser - but the starcannon or eml both have merits

i suppose if the table was very open i might be tempted by deep strike - but imo its points efficient just to hide the falcon with GWM - pop out 6" - unload the rteapers 6" and cause  AP2 / AP3 mayhem at 48"

 


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