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Author Topic: Demolisher Vs Executioner  (Read 3636 times)

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Offline Wyddr

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Demolisher Vs Executioner
« on: October 24, 2015, 02:12:00 PM »
Okay, so I'm tossing around Leman Russ tank ideas and debating the role each tank plays. Some of you may remember me trying to start a thread detailing how we rated each Russ variant. After getting some more hands-on experience with the guard, my opinions have changed somewhat.

I would like to debate the relative merits of the Demolisher and the Executioner (aka "Plasma Tank of Doom"), as they are similarly priced to field, throw out big AP2 Death, and seem to potentially fulfill similar roles.

Executioner w/Plasma Sponsons
Pros
  • 5 small blasts that kill Terminators
  • Can take off a lot of wounds from a Monstrous Creature quickly
  • Fairly long range
  • 5 shots that can threaten light vehicles

Cons
  • Gets Hot on everything means you're losing, on average, 2 Hull Points per game just by shooting.
  • 40% of firepower is sponson mounted, meaning getting all guns to bear on the same target is sometimes problematic.
  • All those scatter die and Gets Hot rolls means it can be wildly unreliable

Demolisher (no sponsons)
Pros
  • High Strength Ordnance weapon pens most vehicles reliably
  • Large blast means its is less scatter prone (though not entirely, obviously)
  • Instakilling potential
  • All firepower is turret mounted, so easy to bring weapon to bear
  • Cheaper than the Executioner

Cons
  • One shot means killing vehicles unlikely/only taking off 1 HP.
  • Fairly short ranged and not fast enough to close.
  • Ordnance main gun makes sponsons/secondary weapons useless
  • Risk (though small) of losing all the firepower to 1 Weapon Destroyed result

Thoughts? Experiences with either tank?

Offline Calamity

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 04:12:48 PM »
You've pretty much summed up the two tanks perfectly.  If I had to say which one was better I'd go for the executioner, even though the thing kills itself a lot of the time.  I'm not to keen on the ordinance armed leman russ tanks because of how they're limited in their firepower.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 04:15:00 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 04:34:45 PM »
In my tests I have managed to lose an average of 1 Executioner shot per turn thanks to Gets Hot. Of the remaining 3 shots, 1 will scatter way off target, one will hit, and one will more-or-less hit. That is unspeakably annoying. Annoying enough for me to now consider saying "frag it" and getting the Demolisher, which will usually at least wing whatever you shoot it at.

But then I lose the range, which I feel is pretty key.

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 07:07:26 AM »
Plasmacutioner all day. My brother uses his in conjunction with his Imperial Knight and its a nightmare. It gets the job done against everything, infantry, vehicles, MC's, and gargantuans alike. With prescience from a nearby psyker Gets Hot! is much less of an issue and those blast markers become much more accurate.

I think the Plasmacutioner is one of the best tanks in the game hands-down.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 08:52:37 AM »
But you've got to invest in a psyker to make it work (and therefore rely on the inherently unreliable psychic phase)?

That's a significant concern for me. Not sure if it's worth 250+ points of investment.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 09:59:31 AM »
Do you use a CCS with Kurov's Aquila? I take one in every game over 1000 points. Just keep him near said Plasma-Death Terror.

Your worries about over-heat disappear. You have an 87% chance per turn to roll no "ones" and only a 6.6% chance to lose a HP. You have a 43% chance to roll no "ones" in 6 turns of firing all 5 shots. There's a 66% chance to suffer 0 hp from 6 turns of shooting.

Preferred Enemy makes a big difference. Similar benefits reduce the odds of self destructing Plasmaguns on Infantry, if they have Carapace. Less effective for Flakk.

CCS inside a Chimera extends that benefit in a large radius, allowing a good 1000 + points of AM models to benefit. Considering how many weapons will fit inside there, you effectively improve the accuracy of tons of guns, and with the high strength, effectively give Rend to anything with S 6 or higher. In most cases, anyhow. Throw it all inside an Aegis line... pray that you get an Objective inside your deployment zone. ;)

I would take the Plasma-Cutioner first, Demo second.


Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 10:30:06 AM »
Does Preferred Enemy extend to gets hot rolls on blast weapons? They don't really roll "to hit" per se. I wouldn't think it would apply.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 01:12:21 PM »
Does Preferred Enemy extend to gets hot rolls on blast weapons? They don't really roll "to hit" per se. I wouldn't think it would apply.

Check out page page 164 of the rule book (last paragraph under Gets Hot) for the answer.  You'll be pleasantly surprised. :)

I forgot about the Aquila.  Definitely worth it 99% of the time.  Yes it's another investment but if you're going plasma heavy (Executioners and plasma vets) then it's invaluable.   

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 01:24:52 PM »
Does Preferred Enemy extend to gets hot rolls on blast weapons? They don't really roll "to hit" per se. I wouldn't think it would apply.

Check out page page 164 of the rule book (last paragraph under Gets Hot) for the answer.  You'll be pleasantly surprised. :)

I did. I'm not. 

The rules for Gets Hot define the roll you make as something preceding the To Hit roll and grants re-rolls to attacks that would otherwise be re-rolled (things like Prescience, Twin-Linking, BS6+, etc). However, you do not always get to re-roll for Preferred Enemy. Rather you only get a re-roll if you roll a specific number on the To Hit roll.

Since the Gets Hot die is rolled prior to resolving the shot and there is no conventional way to roll a 1 when shooting a plasma cannon, I can't see how you'd get to re-roll it. To my eyes, it looks like you guys have been playing this wrong.

 :-\

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2015, 06:11:54 PM »
Damn you, for making me log in twice in one day. ;)

The very last paragraph in the box in the 40k RB, pg 164, quoted mostly in entirety because you need the whole paragraph...

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit, a wound is only suffered if the to hit re-roll is also a Specific Value; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of Specific Value for weapons that do not roll to hit."

Such as Plasma Cannons.

Preferred Enemy pg 169...

"... This special rule re-rolls failed to hit and to wound rolls of Specific Value if attacking its Preferred Enemy.


So PE allows rerolls in certain scenarios, and a model that attacks with a weapon that does not roll to hit is allowed to use a re-roll to attempt to avoid the negative results of Getting Hot. They happen to overlap in the scenario in which that re-roll would be required.

There is some argument about whether or not PE allows a re-roll of blast scatter... I think it doesn't... but that's irrelevant in regards to the overheat issue, which is what we're talking about anyhow. :)

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 09:06:57 PM »
My argument is that the Gets Hot rolls for blast weapons does not count as a to-hit roll, and therefore PE doesn't apply. Nothing in that paragraph contradicts that. Indeed, it even defines the Gets Hot die as preceding the to hit roll. It isn't affected by PE in my view.

To clarify: There is no re-roll unless a specific value is rolled during a to-hit roll with PE. Since it is not possible to roll that value during *the to hit roll* on a blast weapon, no re-roll is ever triggered and, therefore, no re-roll can be taken.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 07:58:17 PM by Wyddr »

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 07:16:33 PM »
I'm going to tip toe around the question of whether or not preferred enemy works on gets hot or not, and state again that the executioner is probably the better of the two tanks by a small margin.  I find scatter weapons to be very unreliable with regards to accuracy.  If it was me playing, I'd know that the demolisher will hardly hit its target.  And as it reduces the accuracy of every other gun on the tank when fired you probably won't take sponsons with it.  So you better hope that the cannon doesn't get blown off.  Sure it's powerful, but it's only one shot too.  And it's short ranged, meaning that your tank will have to get into danger. 

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 11:07:24 PM »
My argument is that the Gets Hot rolls for blast weapons does not count as a to-hit roll, and therefore PE doesn't apply. Nothing in that paragraph contradicts that. Indeed, it even defines the Gets Hot die as preceding the to hit roll. It isn't affected by PE in my view.

To clarify: There is no re-roll unless a specific value is rolled during a to-hit roll with PE. Since it is not possible to roll that value during *the to hit roll* on a blast weapon, no re-roll is ever triggered and, therefore, no re-roll can be taken.

There is no "to hit roll" with a blast weapon. By your logic, twin-linked would not allow a reroll of the gets hot, although that is specifically allowed, because there's no to-hit roll, just a "gets-hot-check" roll. Mechanically, you insert an artificial to-hit roll before you roll scatter dice.

I acknowledge that you probably won't agree with my interpretation that the gets-hot-check roll is simply part of the unusually complex to-hit roll process involved in this situation, that replaces the usual effect of rolling a 3+ on 1d6 to see if a Marine hits something. Instead, I'll offer the following.

Regardless of the situation, a model with Preferred Enemy has the *ability* to re-roll a to hit roll. Contrast that with a model that does not have twin-linked, master-crafted, Prescience, PE, or any other *ability* to re-roll. PE only activates on a certain to hit roll, but you always have the *ability* to re-roll. For example, you may only re-roll a Twin-linked Blast weapon if you do not roll a "hit" on the scatter die. You have the ability to re-roll, but not the permission to do so, yet. Per your previous logic, you don't have the *permission* to re-roll the scatter die for a Gets Hot Blast weapon until after you roll an "Arrow" on the scatter die. Yet you are explicitly allowed to re-roll a failed gets-hot-check if you have a twin-linked blast, even though you haven't achieved the conditions for allowing a re-roll. For example, if you re-roll a "Value" for your gets-hot-check, then roll a "Hit", you aren't allowed to re-roll your scatter die. ;)

As such, with PE, you achieve the literal requirements to be allowed to re-roll the gets-hot-check roll, by virtue of having the ability to re-roll a to hit roll, even if you don't have permission to do so, as the same scenario applies to Twin-Linked Blast weapons. By having the ability to re-roll to hit, you may re-roll gets-hot-checks, even if you haven't met the conditions for allowing a re-roll.

Further argument should address the incongruity between allowing re-rolled gets-hot-checks from Twin-linked, that have yet to fulfill conditions allowing the re-roll of scatter [ie- Will it hit or arrow? Can't re-roll a hit.] while disallowing PE. Admittedly, the check for PE will never resolve, but that's irrelevant. You still have the ability to re-roll a to-hit roll.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 07:12:38 AM »
The incongruity between Blast weapons and the To Hit roll is rather simply explained in the rules for Blast weapons. It just says "instead of rolling to hit, do this." There you go. In the case of other re-rolls, the Gets Hot rules are explicit.

For all your contortions, you can't roll a 1 to hit, so you can't get a re-roll. That's it. The thread is thread jacked enough, though (my fault), so if you want to continue this, take it to the rules forum.

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 08:42:54 PM »
Although I already have, there is no requirement to roll a 1 to hit. That clause is entirely in your imagination. Be pissy all you like. You're making up snags that are non-existent.

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Re: Demolisher Vs Executioner
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 06:45:13 AM »
The rules debate has been taken to the correct place, and as such will be continued there and not here.  This topic will, however, remain open for discussing the tactical options outlined in the first post.
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