Topic: Kans vs. Koptas

[incredibleskulk]

So i got to play an apoc game the other day, was a ton of fun.  It was going to be my chance to compare koptas and kans side by side.  I took 3 units of 4 koptas, all with rokkits, and 3 with buzz saws.  I also took 9 Kans with rokkits.  That being said i completely failed to get a reasonable comparison on what they can do.  That happened because my Kans only got into assault once, and only as a tarpit unit against a 5 man thunder cav squad with an IC that gains attacks per models killed.  The other reason is i outflanked the koptas, assaulted and only managed to hit on avg 1 of 9 buzz saw attacks between three squads, one squad was instantly wiped by a great powerfist roll from a single greyhunter. Most of those that hit were on a Daemon Prince that i assisted a nids player with.
The Kans were effective as a tarpit unit and held off the cavalry for two rounds of combat, including doubling out the IC, which helped win the game by keeping an uber unit in check way in the back corner of the table.  The Koptas managed to kill a greyhunters squad on the second round of combat, but were left weak and scraggly.

I do have to say that my 4+ cover on the kans(from KFF) really frustrated the opponents, as they could not manage to kill the kans effectively, managing only one dead kan after two rounds of shooting at them.

So basically i got no real results from either unit, both from poor rolling and from good tactics and am looking for some input on koptas vs kans.

My apoc list was:

2 big mek, KFF, PK, Cybork, Eavy Armor.

15 lootas

6 squads of 30 boyz

12 koptas, 9 buzz, all tl rokkits

9 kans, rokkits

[The Harbinger]

I have recently been using them both together as they are better when in concert with each other. They are for two separate rolls Kopta's take out the things that can damage your kan's on the first turn and then they take fire and leave your kan's unopposed till second turn and hopefully they will be close enough to do some krumpin. Comparing them is difficult it comes down to what you want from your army slow moving combat monster or first turn tank kills. Or both.

[Azonalanthious]

Really, I think the discussion goes beyond just those two.  There are 4 units that can broadly slot into the same S8 shot role.  My opinion of them:

Deffkoptas: The fastest/most manuverable of the choices, so the best at getting that nice side or rear armor shot.  With the buzzsaw, also the best in close combat.  Arguably the most fragile choice (depending mostly on how good you are at keeping the other options in cover).  However, one of the most expensive choices, the most if you add in buzzsaws (or really even one buzzsaw)

Rokkit Buggies: Faster then kans and cheaper then either kans or koptas, these guys can do ok.  Unlikely to get a rear armor shot, but side armor remains a solid possibility.  As an AV10 open-topped squadron they are literally the definition of a fragile vehicle, but even the most fragile vehicle is still the equivalent of a T6 model with ~50% chance of not-dying even if wounded, even before a cover save.  Unfortunately, packs 0 close combat ability, and what ork doesn't want to get up close and personal for some serious crumpin'

Rokkit Kans: Expensive - up there with the koptas.  And not fast enough that a rear or even side armor shot is likely.  On the plus side, AV11 moves them out of the range of all non-tau/necon small arms fire increasing their survivability, can run to otherwise help increase mobility, and they even at WS2 they pack a great close combat punch with the dredd close combat weapon.

Big Gunz Kannon team: Fragile, weedy, poor mobility, and dead they second something charges them.  However, I consider them a contender and one of the more under-appreciated units in our codex.  Their longer range helps balance out their limited mobility, and means they can dig into a nice spot of cover and generally stay there for the saves.  They are suprisingly durable when in cover - not gonna win any prizes of course, but enough firepower to force a moral check (which, yes, will probably send 'em packing) will often be enough firepower to also take out an equal number of points of any of the other three options, particularly when you add in that they are the only unit in this list with the option to go to ground, which can buy them another round of shooting if it comes to it.  But their big benefit is that they are cheap, cheap, cheap.  Costing a buggy and a half, or a kan +10 or less then a single buzzsaw kopta, but with three times the firepower of any of those.  Toss in a few ammo grots and they are more accurate then any of them as well.

[angel of death 007]

This is really going to depend on what you need them to do. 

The kopta with buzzsaw and rokkits makes for a great alpha striking suicide unit.   Able to take advantage of a scout move and being fast it is a great buzzsaw striking option.  With the option to outflank them also make for an interesting option.  The down side of course is the price and ease to insta kill.  Don't expect them to last long after they do the job they need to do. 

Kans are definately a decent option.  Though slow they provide a medium armor, ability to tarpit and engage different types of targets.  Kans with a KFF nearby are very durable.  They also provide options for both anti-infantry and anti-armor.  They have the advantages in CC and movement of a walker and come standard with a DCCW.  They are a decent cost and are flexible enough to take on different roles.

Rokkit buggies are a fast alternative.  Working in speed freak lists that boast a lot of mid level / higher level armor options.  With many targets on the board they excel at being over looked.  A good cheap support option for both anti-tank or can be equiped for anti-infantry.  They, however, fall into the same disadvanteges with CC and difficult terrain as other light armored vehicles.

Big guns kannons are a very interesting option.  They are very cheap but often times fight for the heavy spot of other units.  Big guns are a very cheap way to add a decent arsonal to your ork line.  The problems fall into there own with having to remain still, are very easy to break with shooting or CC.  Deepstrikers can eat these guys for breakfast without getting their fill. 

The option for me leans heavily toward kans.  Playing a kanwall / dread bash style army I like having a moving wall that is very hard for my oponent to take down and almost impossible to break thru.  Kans provide a decent all around unit for a very cheap cost.  I usually field two squads of them. 

Not saying that I don't utilize the other options but if you are taking numbers you can't go wrong with kans.  I still field a green baron in my list.  And when i field trukks I like to include a buggie w/ rokkits or two.  I kannons I would use if i could ever get 3 models of them but I still can't justify them over the kans.  The main place I think the Big guns would excel would be in a true green tide type army.  Giving your opponents only soft targets doesn't leave much for their lascannons or equilant.  Armor denial leaves those that paid for heavy weapons or tons of meltas scratching their heads. 

[OD from TV]

incredibleskulk this thread is a more important topic than I think you realize.  With the release of Imperial Armor 8's alternate Ork army list (Ork Dreadmob army list) the question of Kan or Kopta will be ever more present.  This is because in the Dreadmob list Kans and Koptas take up the same slot in the Force Org chart.

Naturally I'm a Rokkit buggy supporter first and foremost, but I don't want to derail the topic any further, it is after all about the distinctions between the Kans and Koptas.  With that in mind I think that choosing between the two really depends on a couple factors the prime being how are you using them and what opponent are you against.

Now a lot of people claim that the best use of Koptas is Outflanking, I disagree.  With the Outflank you are not guaranteed the Kopta will enter where or when you need it to, which is a very hazardous thing if its your only dedicated Anti-Tank unit.  Others claim that you need to Turbo boost the Koptas straight away on the first turn to set up a second turn side or rear armor shot.  This is likely the better move, however far too often do I see players make a critical error with this movement.  They leave the Koptas in the open.

Lets just pretend your playing your Orks and lets pretend your playing against some new race GW just released, say the Demiurg.  Now in the first turn they turboboost some strange bikes/jetbikes that you know have some high strength twinlinked guns.  Wouldn't you shoot at it first?  I'd think so.  More than that Koptas are widely known (thanks AoBR) as Ork Anti-Tank and are incredibly high on your opponents threat list.  The best way to avoid the early death of such a valuable unit is to hide them out of LoS as much as possible, which does mean from time to time risking putting them in difficult terrain meaning Dangerous Terrain tests.  Still even poor rollers will rarely (if ever) loose more than one Kopta due to a Dangerous Terrain test.

Kan tactics are far far simpler than Koptas.  You run them until they are in range of their guns and then walk them up firing until a good (or great) assault opportunity shows itself.  Of course doing this really needs a KFF, but I think most players will have a KFF (or 2) if they're planning on taking Kans in the first place (and lets be honest the Big Mek's ability to take Dreads as troops should have been written as Kans or Dreads).

Now against armies with a bajillion anti-tank weapons like Necrons where pretty much anything can take out a tank the Kans are a mistake even with the KFF.  And against SMurfs (who almost always change their lists around to add in a bunch of Heavy Bolters and Flamers when they're planning on going against Orks) you're better off with the Kans.

Of course this is just from my experience.

Peace
~OD

[SKEETERGOD]

Being a slight addict to the cult of speed I do not run kans or dreds. That said I have a gaming buddy who does run a kan wall army and does well with it, he does not use deff coptas. I of course have a green baron and not a single kan to be seen (if only we could put them in trukks) so to compare the two would be like trying to compare apples and oranges.

The green baron is a deffcopta with rockits and saw, and I usually run him as a unit of 1, as I also take a wartrakk with rockits (for that terrain roll) and a schorcha as my other fast attack choices.

The advantage to the green baron is he can scout and then turbo to get into the rear of the enemy, this usually draws a lot of fire thus saving my truckers and letting them get close. I am accustomed to 2nd round charging and the less stuff shooting at truckers the better. In the event the green baron does survive he will get a side or rear shot and hopefully be able to assault if he failed to destroy the target. This again will draw lots of fire and allows my Battle Wagons to also get in close so the death rollers can do what they got paid for. On average the green baron dies 90 percent of all games, and kills a vehicle in about half of those games. The main job of the copta is to distract and disrupt so that my 4 loads of trukk boys can get stuck in where I want them.

My buddy who runs a kan wall has 3 squads of 3 kans and a dread, (with KFF mek of course) and his tactic is to let the kans draw the fire as his giant squads of boys walk/run towards the enemy. He has grotzookas on 6 of them which are really effective, one squad has rockits and this squad usually kills a vehicle and then gets heavily targeted by his opponent. By the time the rockit squad has been destroyed his boys are making their assaults. This lessens the shooting against the kans and they second wave combats that are not going well. The kans usually turn the combat and then move onto the next combat or shoot grotzookas at the fleeing enemy. This army has the ability to continuously cover from edge to edge a 6 foot table, so there are no paths for the enemy to get past him and get behind him. When a scout or someother unit comes in behind his lines he uses the dred to clean up the mess and or tie up the problem, the dred is surprisingly effective against deep striking terminators, (almost make me want to get one just for that) and can handle just about anything in the 40k universe except hive tyrants.

So the use/purpose for the two are totally different, one is not better than the other, it is a matter of taste and the style of army you run. So for speed freaks use the coptas as the fit in better, while for a foot slogging unit use the kans.

On a different note:
As for effective heavy support the Battle Wagon with boom gun is great; heavily armored, large blast template, a serious bang for the buck (pun intended) and if you put flash gitz in the back you have the shootiest unit in the entire ork army that can move 6 inches a turn and still put out horrendous amounts of fire.  Try it you'll like it!