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Offline AceV53

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Christopher Columbus
« on: October 14, 2002, 08:48:00 PM »
     What did school teach you about Christopher Columbus; that he was a man who discovered America with the pilgrims and had the first Thanksgiving in peace with the Indians? Some people think Columbus was a great man. Here's a summary of the real story:
     In 1492 Columbus told the Spanish he would find a safe and short route to Asia. 510 years ago today he ran into some islands that he thought were the Indies but he actually landed in what is now the Bahamas. He started wondering around the area and found a few Indians to which he thought would make good servants. Columbus goes back to Spain and tells them he had reached Japan and the Indies. On later voyages he forcefully took Indian captives and tried to convert them. I don't remember many details of the first Thanksgiving but I think it was a struggle for a peace treaty with a few Indians tribes and so they had a segregated feast.
     My main question is does this contradict what you originally thought of or learned about Columbus? I imagine it would to the younger population because of schools not telling the whole truth.
     Plus, people credit Columbus with "discovering" America. I would say he encountered America because the Native Americans/Indians discovered it really. Do you credit Columbus with "discovering" America?
     Eh just a little argument for Columbus Day.  :)
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Offline Ilfirin Noore

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2002, 09:08:02 PM »
Well I certainly wasn't taught that Columbus had a first Thanksgiving with the pilgrims!  :o More like I was taught that he was the first European explorer to reach the New World. (and unless you actually are Native American it is the New World) The pilgrims, I was taught, we later settlers who colonized the Massachusettes area. They had no contact with Columbus. They were English, he was working for the Portugese. What kind of school did you attend?  :-\
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Offline moojaro

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2002, 09:29:35 PM »
IRC the norse were the 1st europian people to land in the new world
on canada east coast
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Offline Ilfirin Noore

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2002, 09:37:29 PM »
Yes I know, but their documentation (if any) isn't around today so they lose out in my mind.  :P
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Offline Zeus

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2002, 09:42:41 PM »
Do you discover somthing if you do not inform others about it? (This was a major debate in my advanced history class) The first person to document and get europeans to come here, was Amerigo Vespucci so i believe he gets credit.
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Offline mr0santan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2002, 04:21:29 PM »
... Colombus was hired by the SPANISH

the teerm "america" came fom amerigo's name, but wasn't promoted by him.

the norse probably came to america, but there is no evidence they colonized it for any period of time.
there is also evidence that teh EGYPTIANS came to south america, though i am not sure.

the pilgrims arrive over 100 years after columbus, and landed in the wrong area.

colombus was a typical european, that is why i frown on negative imagises of him.

most europeans would take indians in a subservient role, and columbus especialy (being named after christ) was a devote christian.

he didn't prove the world round, almost everyone beleived that at the time.

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Offline Warhoon

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2002, 04:29:46 PM »
there is also evidence that teh EGYPTIANS came to south america, though i am not sure.

There is no remotely believable evidence whatsoever that Classical or pre-Classical Egyptians ever crossed the Atlantic at this time.

Nor do I expect there will ever be such.
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Offline mr0santan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2002, 04:37:46 PM »
there is also evidence that teh EGYPTIANS came to south america, though i am not sure.

There is no remotely believable evidence whatsoever that Classical or pre-Classical Egyptians ever crossed the Atlantic at this time.

Nor do I expect there will ever be such.

actually, there is.  they have found evidence of plants (like tobacoo adn marijuana in egyptian ruins), and some descriptions of that in egyptian lore...... i think  ;D

also people in recent years have poved that they could make it across the atlantic using egyptian-style equipment. (papyrus rafts and the such)

there is o hard evidnce,  just speculation.  There is also the similar architecture in pyramids, though you coud argue that it is just natura, which is probably true
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Offline Warhoon

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2002, 04:42:42 PM »
...i think  ;D....
...also people in recent years have poved that they could...
...there is o hard evidnce,  just speculation....
...though you coud argue that it is just natura, which is probably true....

So, to sum-up your rebuttal....

...There is no remotely believable evidence whatsoever that Classical or pre-Classical Egyptians ever crossed the Atlantic at this time.

What is it with people and this "magic Egyptian" thing?  No, really, what makes people so hot for this concept?  I wanna know, pleeeease.....
« Last Edit: October 15, 2002, 04:44:56 PM by Warhoon »
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Offline mr0santan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2002, 04:47:02 PM »
 :'(
i guess it is speculation.... but if you wanna know why people are fascinated by egyptians, i'd have to kill you  ;D


 ;D ok, i''l tell ;D

it's becsu the egyptans are controlling the minds of themultitude form the past to get idead for their pyramids  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2002, 05:02:36 PM »
The Americas were visited at least twice by the Asians. Long before anyone else did. First, they crossed over the Strait and colonized both continents. Then there has been evidence of a temporary Chinese camp ground, dating back a couple dynasties.

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2002, 07:09:20 PM »
crap, you are LYING!
i've NEVER heard of ANTYHING like that!

i know a general made it to Rome
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Offline xyclos

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2002, 04:23:57 PM »
I learned a few things about CC.

One was that he and his cronies brought in diseases, like syphillus(cc had it also).
Another, just like someone mentioned, he was a 'typical' European.

NO love for CC and Columbus day.

Offline Athenys Manan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2002, 06:21:33 PM »
True, archeologists have also found a resemblance of a few Maya glyphs to Ancient Chinese characters too consistent to be merely coincidential. So it is safe to say that Euros were most definetly NOT the first foreign visitors to the Americas. Columbus was a good navigator, but a good human being he most assuredly was NOT. IMO he earned himself a seat in High Hades for all his crimes.

Quote
1. Question: What's Wrong with Christopher Columbus?

Answer: We've all been lied to about Columbus. Before Columbus sailed the Atlantic, he was a slave trader for the Portuguese, transporting West African people to Portugal to be sold as slaves. Columbus initiated the first Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Columbus, his brother, and his son all continued slave trading of indigenous peoples from the Americas to Europe and from Africa to the Caribbean. Under his administration as viceroy and governor of the Caribbean Islands, 8 million people were killed, making his "contribution" to history the first mass genocide of indigenous peoples. The Columbus legacy is steeped in blood, violence, and death. Public holidays celebrating Columbus not only teach children to honor a cruel and brutal man, they encourage people in this society to ignore, look away, and even support racist practices embedded in today's economic, political, and judicial systems.

2. Question: Aren't these accounts of Columbus an exaggerated revision of history?

Answer: No. By conservative accounts based on Spanish surveys, the Taino numbered as many as 8 million in 1493. [Source: Cook and Woodrow, Essays in Population History, Vol. 1, Chapter VI, (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1971, cited in Churchill's linked essay.] During Columbus' tenure as "viceroy and governor" of the Caribbean Islands and the American mainland from 1493 until 1500, he instituted policies of slavery (encomienda) and the systematic murder and rape of the Taino population. Dominican priest, Bartolome de Las Casas, was the first European historian in the Americas. He was an eyewitness and wrote in painful detail of the tortures he witnessed. In a survey conducted in 1496, he estimated that over 5 million people had been exterminated within the first three years of the Columbus rule. [Actual survey conducted in 1496 by Bartolome de Las Casas, cited in J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 [Source: New York: Putnam Sons Publishers, 1903-1904), p. 348ff. cited in Churchill's linked essay.] Later accounts that gloss over the horrors of the Columbus regime are the revisions of history

By the time of Columbus' departure, only 100,000 Taino were left, and by 1542, only 200 were left. Within the entire Caribbean Islands, about 15 million indigenous people are estimated to have been exterminated within one generation of Columbus' arrival. This is genocide, the wholesale killing of an entire race of people. These policies, established here, laid the foundation for extermination policies that Europeans used to justify the elimination of over 100 million native people throughout the Western Hemisphere. By any standards those numbers describe a Holocaust. (go to top)

3. Question: Wasn't Columbus just a product of his times? Is it not unfair to judge a 15th Century man by 21st Century standards?

Answer: To view Columbus as violent and racist is not an imposition of 21st century morality. His own diaries reveal his brutality -- a brutality that offered no fair judgment to his victims. Bartolome de Las Casas began his days in the Americas as a beneficiary of the encomienda (slave-holding) system. However, as he watched the horror of human destruction caused as a result of Columbus' actions and decisions, as well as the actions of the soldiers under Columbus' command, De Las Casas repudiated the system. He described in vivid detail the massacre of the Indians, denounced Columbus, and published his findings in Europe in his History of the Indies. [Need a link to de Las Casas.]

The violence of Columbus' extermination actions was widely debated in theological and academic circles within Europe. European legal and moral principles tended to favor the rights of indigenous peoples to be free from unjustified invasion, murder and pillage by Europeans. Francisco de Vitoria, professor at the University of Salamanca in the early 1500s and often considered the father of modern international law, wrote extensively on the rights of indigenous peoples. Vitoria and others in Columbus' own lifetime rejected the view that popes and monarchs had the automatic right to enslave indigenous peoples and take their land. The rights of human beings were as much 15th Century issues then, as they are 21st Century issues today. (go to top)

4. Question: But those events happened a long time ago. How could they possibly matter today?

Answer: Columbus' actions set the foundation for legal and social policies -- still used today in United States, Mexico, Canada, South America, and in many countries around the world. These policies justify the theft and destruction of indigenous peoples' lands and knowledge by corporate and government interests. Media, films, judicial systems, educational systems, and other political and social institutions support this continued assault on the natural resources of indigenous peoples. Indigenous peoples today remain at the margins of technological society -- struggling to overcome the destruction of land, culture and language. In many ways all peoples on this planet are impacted. These attacks on indigenous peoples and their land and their knowledge contribute to the destruction of ecosystems and the erosion of human rights for all people. (go to top)

5. Question: What does this history of Columbus have to do with protesting the Columbus Day parade?

Answer: From the actions and words of the parade organizers over the last year, it is clear that the parade represents more than a celebration of Italian culture, or even of Columbus, the man. It is a glorification of the colonial tradition described above and the privileging of an Italian past that benefited and grew out of that process of subjugation. Moreover, in its celebration it is intended to serve as a reminder of that past, to convey that the genocide for which Columbus was personally responsible is an acceptable cost for the extension of western civilization. If the parade was truly intended to "celebrate" Italian heritage, why begin with Columbus? Why not simply call it the "Italian Heritage Parade?" Surely, the organizers would draw a wider audience and reflect a broader and more accurate view of Italian culture. However, neither the title nor the actions of the organizers are accidental. Both are intended to convey what the parade organizers find valuable in their interpretation of the Italian American experience; namely, the legacy of racial superiority, conquest, and domination epitomized by Columbus. The Columbus parade is the ultimate opportunity for the parade organizers to champion the invasion of the America's, thereby avoiding any personal or collective responsibility for the genocide that began under Columbus, and that continues today. We can find nothing of value in cultural celebration that elevate the pride of one group by demeaning and disrespecting another. When we allow a parade in honor of Columbus to take place without objection, we are tacitly supporting those values that celebrate subjugation, and we are suggesting that such a parade represents all of our interests. In opposing the Columbus Day parade, we refuse to accept or enable those values and we maintain that our resources, time, and energy, are better invested in expressions of good will, mutual respect, and building collective dignity. (go to top)

6. Question: Doesn't the first amendment protect the right of the Italian organizers to have their parade?

Answer: To be clear, we support and defend the rights granted to all of us by virtue of the first amendment. We strongly affirm the right of all people to create a marketplace of ideas that stimulates and strengthens democracy. However, we do not accept hate speech, and more specifically, the state-sponsored celebration of Columbus as a valid expression of this right. In particular, the first amendment cannot, and should not, be applied in a capricious or uncritical manner in all circumstances. Doing so overlooks the very real inequalities of power which surround us. These unequal positions of power affect our abilities to access, express, defend and assert our rights (such as the first amendment). What's more they affect the degree to which our expressions are heard, the authority they carry, and the manner in which they impact our society. For example, we would never accept the argument that a slave's actual right to object to slavery was ever equal to the slaveholder's verbal defense of slavery. Similarly, we would not accept that a woman in a hostile work environment possesses an equal ability to exercise free speech with the corporate CEO who is sexually harassing her. As such, it is erroneous to suggest that we all have equal access to the first amendment. An absolutist view of the first amendment ignores the inequalities in political and social power that translates to an imbalance in the application and access of the first amendment. Over the years, we have accepted numerous restrictions on pure speech as a means to correct for the imbalance of power that can take place when the first amendment is arbitrarily applied. For example, we accept limitations on pure speech when it is used to abuse young children, we accept limitations on speech when it is used to threaten or incite danger, and we accept restrictions on pure speech when it is used to sexually or racially harass co-workers. In addition, we no longer accept signs that read "Whites Only," because we know that the sign is not only about speech, but about the power that historically accompanied that message. In short, we've accepted these restrictions with the knowledge that unlimited pure speech coupled with unequal access to power ensures inevitable harm. One very important instance in which the U.S. played an instrumental role in the justifiable limitation of speech was the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal following World War II. Julius Streicher was tried, convicted, and executed after being prosecuted by Robert Jackson, associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. Streicher's crimes were considered so horrendous that they were termed "crimes against humanity." To first amendment absolutists, Streicher should have gone free, but Justice Jackson and the other members of the Tribunal decided that Streicher 's role as a Nazi propagandist - promoting, inciting, and supporting the extermination of Jews, gays, gypsies, and others- was not and should not be protected speech, even though it was pure speech. Subsequently, international law as reflected in the Genocide Convention, made the promotion, advocacy, or incitement to genocide an international crime. We believe that Columbus Day justifies, promotes, and extends genocidal sentiments and policies against indigenous peoples in the Americas and around the world. Just as apartheid was denounced by the international community as an unacceptable ideology of racial superiority in South Africa, so should Columbus Day and Columbus celebrations be condemned as the advancement of racial supremacy because they celebrate the destruction of indigenous peoples. In addition, the speech we are discussing in the case of the Columbus Day parade constitutes a combination of pure speech, symbolic speech, and behavior. Because of the potential for harm in this type of speech (because it represents conduct combined with speech) this type of expression has always been subject to greater scrutiny. As such, we see no contradiction or undue burden in having the Columbus Day parade closely scrutinized. In fact, the Columbus Day parade or celebrations of the holiday warrant even closer inspection as they involve state sponsored actions. When the city and state involve themselves in condoning and protecting the parade they purport to act on behalf of all of us, and as such their actions take on greater authority. Finally a blind application of the first amendment is ultimately problematic because it creates a conflict with other rights granted to us through the constitution. Specifically, the 14th amendment provides us with "equal protection under the law," and protection of our life, liberty, and property via due process, rights that ensure us freedom from hate speech and other types of harassment. While we don't suggest that one amendment be supplanted for another, we object to any conflict between these rights automatically being decided in favor of those in the dominating position. As such, we reject that claims to freedom of speech on behalf of the parade organizers should supercede our freedom to protest, our right to live free from harassment and intimidation.

...nothing like a little history lesson to rouse Euro-American consciousness out of it's self-induced stupor, I say ;).



« Last Edit: October 16, 2002, 06:28:49 PM by Lileath »



Offline mr0santan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2002, 08:41:12 PM »
 ;D i still respect columbus  ;D

because...

1) i share a name with him  ;D

2) i share a nationality with him  ;D

3) i am against the "liberal" ay of thinking, where everyone should be able to say what they want, as long as it doesn't conflict with their views.  i love watching anti-war protests with violent protesters, that hipocrisy marks a democrat (liberal in america) like a blazing light.  ;D

4) if illegal immigrants can haev thei own holiday and people with "alternative lifestyles" (those bundlles of sticks...) can have their own holiday, italians can have their holiday, no matter what they want o call it.  

5) Columbus didn't know that his diseases would decimate the indian population.  He worked them like slaves were used at the time, they were just weaker than the africans he was used to.  if u wanna blame people for disease warfare, point at the british that gave indians smallpox infested blankets in the 1700's

6) if the indians were as technilogcally superior as the europeans were, they probably would have done the sme  ;D

7) lots of murderers are praised around the world, i'm not saying columbus is one of them though.  pancho villa ( i think that is his name) raided texaas, killingmany, adn eventually too over the mexican govt for a day, and he is celebrated.



in summary.... HAPPY COLUMBUS DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D ;D
you really can't compare people in two different eras.  If you, every leader in the past was a tyrant... etc, becasue they ALL did things that would be deplorable by today's stndards.  and remember, there were three parts of the slave trade.... the plantatins they were used at, the transporters, and the african nations that sold them ;D

and also, we have been "lied to" aout every figure in hstory, especial in early school.  They don't say "george washington was evil becase he owed slaves" in elementry school, they say he was a founding father adn the first president.  ( i love washington, seriousely), adn tehy don't go into how well hitler turned around germany ( i like him too, besides the STUPID SH!T he did to the "inferior races"), they jsut say he killed jews and started WWII and was evil



mwahhahahahahahahah ahahhahaha
( ii love this stuff  ;D)
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Offline Athenys Manan

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2002, 01:05:32 AM »
GRRRRRRR... COLUMBUS DAY MUST CEASE TO EXIST, PERIOD! YOU DON'T SEE A HAPPY HITLER DAY PARADE NOW DO YA? Ill-schooled punk... >:(



Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2002, 05:30:37 AM »
 Just a quick side note on the Norse thing. In Oklahoma where I live (center of the US for those who are not familiar with it) there are Norse runs stones that pre date any other European settlers.

  Now as to Columbus yes he was a great buisness man and he had a lot of faith in what he did. But was he great enough to earn a day for it. No he commited attrocities left and right (but then again this was the norm of the day.).  Navigation wise he was not that good at that either, he was lucky. Heck he almost lost control of his crew several times. Because of lack of confidence in his ability, of course it did not help that he basically got the more piratical type of crew. No the only thing that he was great at was selling himself and his idea.

Offline Warhoon

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2002, 09:53:47 AM »
Just a quick side note on the Norse thing. In Oklahoma where I live (center of the US for those who are not familiar with it) there are Norse runs stones that pre date any other European settlers.
Norse rune stones in Oklahoma?  These were found there in-situ?  Or were they just moved to museum there?

Can you direct me to any further information?  This sounds interesting.
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Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2002, 06:11:13 PM »
 No they were found in the North eastern part of the state. They are not to be moved although the can be viewed. I will see if I can find a link for you on it.

Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Christopher Columbus
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2002, 06:16:46 PM »
 Here you go Warhoon was able to find this.

http://www.uscid.org/~bartjean/chap9.htm

 


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