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Author Topic: Necron Space Travel Technology.  (Read 10102 times)

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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2009, 02:53:07 PM »
If the intertialess thingy is used in Sublight speeds, doesn't that essentially mean that they can maneuver in any form they want, including instant stops, instant starts (well, duh, that sounded stupid), instant turns and whatnot?

In fact, with an "intertialess" drive, doesn't that remove any need for an acceleration period?

It's also very possible that I'm being too hard-scientific about this. :-P We ARE talking about Mummies in Space after all.

Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2009, 04:23:23 PM »
If the intertialess thingy is used in Sublight speeds, doesn't that essentially mean that they can maneuver in any form they want, including instant stops, instant starts (well, duh, that sounded stupid), instant turns and whatnot?

In fact, with an "intertialess" drive, doesn't that remove any need for an acceleration period?

It's also very possible that I'm being too hard-scientific about this. :-P We ARE talking about Mummies in Space after all.

My take on it has always been that they basically override relativity using these engines.  Thus no upper cap on their speed.


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Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2009, 08:34:08 PM »
That is not what 'inertialess' travel would mean. The speed of light is an upper limit for ALL particles etc. in the universe, not just ones with mass (remember, light has no mass and it cannot go faster), without using any SiFi stuff (warp etc.) Relativity will also effect any and all things travelling at speed, whether or not it has mass, whether or not its actually travelling at light speed.

The 'inertialess' drives would mean that you could maneuvre the object to very high speeds quickly without any nasty energy problems or momentum riping the vessel apart. It is therefor safe to assume that the necrons get about using some other form of propulsion aswell, and not just making the objects in question 'really really light'. As with most Necron wtuff, its probably 'impossible to comprehend' (like the guass weaponry).


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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2009, 02:59:36 AM »
Actually, we know quite well how gauss weaponry works, it's just that the Imperium can't fathom the means of actually firing a gauss flayer.

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2009, 04:31:15 AM »
I believe they do indeed use some form of their teleportation for interstellar travel, and I was also under the impression that their inertialess drive rather than removing the cap on their speed, actually removed the need for accelleration as Sir Godspeed described.
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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2009, 10:46:18 AM »
That is not what 'inertialess' travel would mean. The speed of light is an upper limit for ALL particles etc. in the universe, not just ones with mass (remember, light has no mass and it cannot go faster), without using any SiFi stuff (warp etc.) Relativity will also effect any and all things travelling at speed, whether or not it has mass, whether or not its actually travelling at light speed.

Are you sure this is the case in general relativity?  I unfortunately only have a introductory education in relativistic physics, but I do know that the classical definition of inertia is not valid in general relativity (ie. inertia applies to both mass and energy) and a new definition is required.  I do believe that no inertia does not just mean no mass, and has other implications as well, as even light has inertia while it does not have mass. 

Edit:
With my amaturish understanding and abit of looking around, inertia may be related to momentum and not mass in general relativity.  If this is the case, then when you use the equation

momentum = lorentz factor * invariant mass * velocity = 0

Since we know we have a nonzero veloctiy, the invariant mass must be 0 or the lorentz factor must be 0.  If the lorentz factor is 0 then your speed is infinite.  Therefore, the invarient mass must be 0 and the velocity is not limited to the speed of light. 

This would make alot of sense to me, that you would define inertia no longer in terms of classical mass but in terms of rest mass, which light does have.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:54:44 AM by twilight_reaver »


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Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2009, 03:19:07 PM »
Well, interia is momentum, its just an american way of describing the same phenomenom. the 'speed of light' is the fastest any ojbect may ever go in a vacuum, it is only 'coincidence' that light travels at the same speed. This speed is not limited by mass, but by it being the very fastest possible. Also, the field you want to be looking at is special relativity (which covers light, relativistic speeds, and the effects: lorentz contraction, time dilation), not general relativity, which mainly covers spacetime and gravity. I've never seen the equation you have stated, and I'm currently doing a physics degree.

Actually, we know quite well how gauss weaponry works, it's just that the Imperium can't fathom the means of actually firing a gauss flayer.

I thought we didn't, and that Imperial Science had no way of explaining guass flayers, not they didn't know where the trigger was.


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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2009, 03:34:50 PM »
Well, interia is momentum, its just an american way of describing the same phenomenom. the 'speed of light' is the fastest any ojbect may ever go in a vacuum, it is only 'coincidence' that light travels at the same speed. This speed is not limited by mass, but by it being the very fastest possible. Also, the field you want to be looking at is special relativity (which covers light, relativistic speeds, and the effects: lorentz contraction, time dilation), not general relativity, which mainly covers spacetime and gravity. I've never seen the equation you have stated, and I'm currently doing a physics degree.

The equation is from wikipedia and the basic one for relativistic momentum.

And photons, or light, DO have mass, and they do have momentum.  They have zero rest mass, but they have relativistic mass in terms of e = mc^2. 

If inertialess drive meant truly inertialess, in terms of general relativity inertia, I believe that they might be able to go faster than light.

Actually, if inertialess dirves could give you 0 relativistic mass, that would imply from relativity equations that if you went at the speed of light your mass would be 0/0, but the equations would allow you to go faster than light (speed no longer plays a role in your mass, therefore there is no bound on your speed).

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I thought we didn't, and that Imperial Science had no way of explaining guass flayers, not they didn't know where the trigger was.

Necron codex, imperial techpriest says that gauss flayers work by using... an EM field or something to literally strip away a target molecule by molecule, player by layer.  This is why when someone gets hit by a gauss flayer, first their armor seems to peel off, then their skin, flesh, and finally their bones disintegrate (or the necron unit has stopped firing and moved on).

It is also why necrons can penetrate any armor given enough time, or wound any creature - nothing is strong enough at a molecular level to resist a gauss weapon.  Stronger armor simply means each layer is stripped slower. 

There is also a pict-capture of a regular necron destroyer penetration both sides of a land raider with its gauss cannon.  The techpriest notes that to be able to penetrate both sides of a land raider, without deflection, would require the equivilent energy of an imperial titan or starship.  Techpriest then goes on to comment on how he is going to pee himself seeing as necrons can mount a weapon of this magnitude on a light skimmer.

Of course, this takes tremendous energy and the techpriest would love to know how they do it, but has no idea of how this effect is actually accomplished, ie. how so much energy is generated or how the field is projected.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 03:42:07 PM by twilight_reaver »


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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2009, 05:19:04 PM »
Quote
I thought we didn't, and that Imperial Science had no way of explaining guass flayers, not they didn't know where the trigger was.

Necron codex, imperial techpriest says that gauss flayers work by using... an EM field or something

yup. Fairly convinced that this then branches into molecules becoming "polarised" after a fashion and then it's that which draws them towards the gun.

This, by the way, goes a fair way toward explaining Living Metal's self-repair quality -- it's got to get the molecules from somewhere, after all.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:20:22 PM by Koval, the Overfiend »

Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2009, 08:50:55 PM »
I don't want to push the issue, suffice to say that the Lorentz facter never even gets close to 0, it increases from 1 and aproaches infinity. Secondly, I don't think you understand how limiting the speed of light is, you cannot break it by just removing mass, it is the very maximum. The equation you have given only works for particles with mass, since I can prove that light speed is infinite using that equation (clearly crap)  ;). It is also worth noting that 'reletivistic mass' is still a hot topic in the physics world.

However... back to the topics at hand. WIth the guass flayer, knowign that it strips layers is completely different to knowing the exact physics and mechanisms behind the phenomenom. As far as I understand, the Imperial scientists (ok, mechanicus) know that the weapon removes the molecules in the target layer at a time ('what'), but they do not know 'how', or 'why'. Ergo, they do not understand it, much like the Necron FTL capability.

The problem with this is that most of the other science in 40k has at least some possibilty of working (extra dimensions are possible, and so are plasma/laser weapons etc), but the Necron tech is so totally alien to our science that we have no clue. No facts on Necron FTL are mentioned other than criptic suggestions of 'inertialess' drives, and that their weapons ripe apart objects like a very fast peeler.


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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2009, 09:29:54 PM »
Well I can replicate "gauss" inside a plasma chamber, where I alternate a RF field to polarize gasses, creating a plasma which I then draw towards the charged plates.  Normally I do this for sputtering, or plasma-enhanced chemical vapor deposition.

One could assume that if I were able to project this alternating electrostatic field directionally, and I had enough energy, I could do the same thing to a solid at range.

I mean, that's as plausible as generating a self contained magnetic field for a meltagun :P

On the topic of inertialess, if not having inertia in this case meant that the object did not have even relativistic inertia (mass) then it doesn't really fall under relativity.  Because even photons have inertia... can you think of anything that doesn't even have inertia?

And yes I messed up the lorentz factor. 


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Offline mob16151

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2009, 11:02:13 PM »
That is not what 'inertialess' travel would mean. The speed of light is an upper limit for ALL particles etc. in the universe, not just ones with mass (remember, light has no mass and it cannot go faster), without using any SiFi stuff (warp etc.) Relativity will also effect any and all things travelling at speed, whether or not it has mass, whether or not its actually travelling at light speed.

The 'inertialess' drives would mean that you could maneuvre the object to very high speeds quickly without any nasty energy problems or momentum riping the vessel apart. It is therefor safe to assume that the necrons get about using some other form of propulsion aswell, and not just making the objects in question 'really really light'. As with most Necron wtuff, its probably 'impossible to comprehend' (like the guass weaponry).

See as not a physics guy I assumed that an inertialess drive meant that you could just keep accelerating. Or that they're would be no upper limit to the speeds you could reach.

Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2009, 02:44:29 AM »
That is not what 'inertialess' travel would mean. The speed of light is an upper limit for ALL particles etc. in the universe, not just ones with mass (remember, light has no mass and it cannot go faster), without using any SiFi stuff (warp etc.) Relativity will also effect any and all things travelling at speed, whether or not it has mass, whether or not its actually travelling at light speed.

The 'inertialess' drives would mean that you could maneuvre the object to very high speeds quickly without any nasty energy problems or momentum riping the vessel apart. It is therefor safe to assume that the necrons get about using some other form of propulsion aswell, and not just making the objects in question 'really really light'. As with most Necron wtuff, its probably 'impossible to comprehend' (like the guass weaponry).

See as not a physics guy I assumed that an inertialess drive meant that you could just keep accelerating. Or that they're would be no upper limit to the speeds you could reach.
I'd asumed, like a couple of other posters, that there was simply no need to accelerate. Physics guys, correct me if I'm wrong, and also remind me if, in my just-woken-up state, this has already been stated -- is acceleration not a result of moving something that has inertia in the first place?

One could assume that if I were able to project this alternating electrostatic field directionally, and I had enough energy, I could do the same thing to a solid at range.

I mean, that's as plausible as generating a self contained magnetic field for a meltagun :P
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« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 02:48:13 AM by Koval, the Overfiend »

Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2009, 03:51:14 PM »
Errrr.... sol defense nets should still have been able to pick up necron ships traveling sublight, even under stealth.  Yes necrons have great stealth, but if you notice their stealth tech isn't about if you can detect them at all, it's about whether you can get it accurate enough to shoot at.  There is just no reason that they would have only been picked up at Jupiter (I think) if they weren't going FTL.  Sol is the single most heavily defended position in the galaxy. 

Wrong. Stealth makes you hard to detect, thats why its difficult to shoot at them. Secondly the reason that they aren't simply invisible is that ships in BFG are in combat, they're firing engines, weapons and using radars etc to fight, thats why you can detect them at all...
Secondly the ships that attacked Mars where shrouds which are (and I quote) "an especially stealthy vessel... blah blah blah... which is even harder to detect."

And before we get too carried away telling ourselves how wonderful the Imperial Defenses are why not consider how they would even detect approaching ships? Probably a warp based system since thats how starships generally travel... useless against necrons which don't travel in the warp, don't have warp signatures to track.

As to normal space if you switch off the engines and put the lights out its quite hard to detect any starship (even non-stealth ships can play possum to escape combat), pile necron stealth tech on top of that. And it is stealth tech, the BFG rules say so.

Then you get the speed factor, which is going to limit use of lightspeed detection against a vessel travelling almost at the speed of light since your radar return telling you the enemy ship is there will arrive back at you only slightly before the necron ship cruises past itself.
You might say "Yeah, but it was detected..." but its not seriously that useful given that it wasn't detected in time. So much so that you would then have to send a message via astropath to leapfrog the ship and warn people up ahead so they can be ready before it shows up.

So in fact its thanks to the Earth system being so heavily and well defended that they actually noticed the attack at all in time to try and do something about it. On most normal the necrons ships are in orbit and parked up before people notice that they're being attacked.

That is all.
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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2009, 12:43:36 PM »
In the necron codex, an imperial commander describes how necron ships appear to them - basically fuzzy, can't get a target lock, so try and shoot ahead of where they are.

Not that stealthy to me.

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Then you get the speed factor, which is going to limit use of lightspeed detection against a vessel travelling almost at the speed of light since your radar return telling you the enemy ship is there will arrive back at you only slightly before the necron ship cruises past itself.
You might say "Yeah, but it was detected..." but its not seriously that useful given that it wasn't detected in time. So much so that you would then have to send a message via astropath to leapfrog the ship and warn people up ahead so they can be ready before it shows up.

Actually no.  If you're just using lightspeed detection anyways, you could never see a necron ship travelling near the speed of light using sublight detection, ever.  Even if you knew they were comming, you wouldn't be able to see them or shoot at them. 

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And before we get too carried away telling ourselves how wonderful the Imperial Defenses are why not consider how they would even detect approaching ships? Probably a warp based system since thats how starships generally travel... useless against necrons which don't travel in the warp, don't have warp signatures to track.

You can detect things in real space via their warp based shadows, not just by their warp engines. 



Frankly we just don't have enough information about this topic atm.  Sufficed to say necrons have great sublight speed and can do FTL very rapidly, somehow, whether it is just teleporting their ships accross the galaxy or with actual super drives.


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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2009, 08:56:27 PM »
In the necron codex, an imperial commander describes how necron ships appear to them - basically fuzzy, can't get a target lock, so try and shoot ahead of where they are.

Not that stealthy to me.

So you're saying they're not stealthy, they're just hard to detect. Next you're going to tell me that an apple is not a fruit right? ::)



Quote
Actually no.  If you're just using lightspeed detection anyways, you could never see a necron ship travelling near the speed of light using sublight detection, ever.  Even if you knew they were comming, you wouldn't be able to see them or shoot at them. 

No, thats obviously not the case. The return signal would arrive slightly before because its travelling slightly faster.

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You can detect things in real space via their warp based shadows, not just by their warp engines.

I don't believe you, can you list the source for this please? :)
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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2009, 12:11:40 AM »
So you're saying they're not stealthy, they're just hard to detect. Next you're going to tell me that an apple is not a fruit right? ::)


nah they're hard to pin down.

Imagine, if you will, that when you look at a necron ship you see 5 of them spread out.  Now obviously there is a ship but which one is real?


No, thats obviously not the case. The return signal would arrive slightly before because its travelling slightly faster.


not fast enough!



I don't believe you, can you list the source for this please? :)

You can see the souls of the crew, sometimes >_>

May or may not apply to necrons, dunno if necrons have souls after the mind transfer.


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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2009, 08:57:38 AM »
May or may not apply to necrons, dunno if necrons have souls after the mind transfer.
Soulstorm established that they do, but then again it wasn't the most well-thought-out of Dawn of War expansions. According to this source, though (assuming I remember the details correctly), Necron souls are generally full of hatred and fairly indistinct.

Personally I much prefer the more traditional idea of Necrons being soulless automata.

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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2009, 01:27:12 PM »
Imagine, if you will, that when you look at a necron ship you see 5 of them spread out.  Now obviously there is a ship but which one is real?

You've got confused and are thinking about holofields. Those are different because they only mess up targetting specificly.

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not fast enough!

You do not know what you are talking about, I suggest including some evidence if you want to argue futher about that since you are simply wrong.


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I don't believe you, can you list the source for this please? :)

You can see the souls of the crew, sometimes >_>

So.. no source then, because you're making it up.

And anyway even if the imperium had warp sensors good enough to detect people from millions of miles away (which I've never heard of) its not going to work against necrons, since even before they where souless robots they where living beings with no (significant) warp presense, like Tau. Thats why Necrons don't have any warp based tech of their own and didn't even have them when they where the Necrontyr.
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Re: Necron Space Travel Technology.
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2009, 01:45:39 PM »
Consider these four factors:
  • Hard to see/locate (stealth, camouflage)
  • Hard to hit (stealth, electronic warfare, extreme manoeuvrability)
  • Hard to hurt (armour, shields, point defence)
  • Hard to kill (damage control, regeneration, redundant systems)

Necron vessels cover points one and two quite easily. They're hard to find in the first place (no warp exit signature for example), use unknown drive mechanisms, are stated to be hard to localise for firing solutions (stealth, and the inertialess drive potentially allows very violent manoeuvres). Points three and four rely upon their regeneration and sentient metal hulls. The fade out ability helps with point four.

The Typha-IV campaign also illustrates the Imperium's detection abilities for warp vessels entering their territory.
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