Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Fenix7729]

ok thanks.  ill get on to mailing a copy of the codex asap.  my game is moved on to tommorow MAYBE which is getting me a little pissed off.  ill play test 1000 pts sooner or later proxy style. 

[InfinityCircuit]

ok thanks.  ill get on to mailing a copy of the codex asap.  my game is moved on to tommorow MAYBE which is getting me a little pissed off.  ill play test 1000 pts sooner or later proxy style. 

That's too bad...hopefully you can get to play!

I played a game against a local guy's ~20-man Seer Council, 7 Starcannon Ulthwe cheese army.  It was a victory for me, but only because he spread out his council and left his Farseers closest to my charge--you can guess what happened next .  I was plagued by horrible rolling all game, whereas my opponent made 8 4+ saves in a row... .  Overall I felt the revision performed as needed.  In the past couple games I haven't been having any problems with the revision.  I think it may be near its final stages!

[Fenix7729]

yeah hopefully.  hopefully it wont be like last time when we said it was near the final stage...then 4th edition came out.  im really hoping for tommorow and im gonna make also a 1500 point army tonight and see which one holds up better or if they're cheesy, ect...  ill most likely be facing SM due to the guy thats always there is a major SM fan.  and im talking about the kind of guy that has a different army every other month.  real veteran while this is gonna be my first time with harlys in about 2 years (with only the CJ 39 harlys) and it was an HQ battle only but they had "mercy" on me while everybody had termies as a retinue i had a shadow seer, DJ, and a solitare.  they didnt know wat happened.  wish me luck.

[InfinityCircuit]

yeah hopefully.  hopefully it wont be like last time when we said it was near the final stage...then 4th edition came out.  im really hoping for tommorow and im gonna make also a 1500 point army tonight and see which one holds up better or if they're cheesy, ect...  ill most likely be facing SM due to the guy thats always there is a major SM fan.  and im talking about the kind of guy that has a different army every other month.  real veteran while this is gonna be my first time with harlys in about 2 years (with only the CJ 39 harlys) and it was an HQ battle only but they had "mercy" on me while everybody had termies as a retinue i had a shadow seer, DJ, and a solitare.  they didnt know wat happened.  wish me luck.

Good luck!

One more issue: Under Masque of the Dark Veil it says "may."  What does this mean?

My next task is to look at testing the Masque of the Dark Veil.  I'm a bit worried if the fact that your guys arrive fresh is truly counterbalanced by spreading out the arrival of the army.

[Rasmus]

The "may" is now gone. It was a throwback to the leaked beta-list. Gone now.

And yes, the Veil is a gamble. It may allow you field your entire army within assault-range on the first turn, but it might also kill your entire Masque. If you want to use it you have to match boldness with caution in a very special way. I have had a lot of fun trying it out.

[AngloHarl]

You know. I have been reading the revision and I think the Dark Veil thing has the potential to cry Cheese! I can imagine the less mature players saying that this is tantamount to giving the entire space marine army the opportunity to deep strike in turn one with no scatter effects.

I would reccommend that you cannot place the template within your enemies deployment zone on turn one. That way we still have to chip and charge into combat but with Harlies that is not usually an issue anyway. Cos we be fast!!

[Rasmus]

As I sad; it can have some devastating effect, but it can also do absolutely horribly. I wonder if changing the rolls for the units to appear one "step" to the left would be nice. 6 on the first turn, 5+ on the second, and son on?

[InfinityCircuit]

As I sad; it can have some devastating effect, but it can also do absolutely horribly. I wonder if changing the rolls for the units to appear one "step" to the left would be nice. 6 on the first turn, 5+ on the second, and son on?

On first glance I'd say that this is a poor idea.  It would make the portal too weak in my opinion.  On the other hand, it seems like it could be quite annoying to have your opponent move out of range and then because one squad comes out be unable to move the portal.  For now however I like it how it is.

I'm confused--how can you lose your entire army?  Through the enemy blocking the portal?

[Fenix7729]

i think hes talking about that if only one unit comes out at a time then  that one unit that comes out will probably get in assault first turn, but wat happens when that assault fase is done?  the opponent has all guns on you and since the portal is so close to the enemy he'll probably be smart and block it.  then you have to move the portal instead of allowing other units to come through the portal.  by the time another unit comes out the first one is probably toast and thats pretty bad when it was your solitare that came out and got shot up.  about 150 to 250 points down the hole just by that and a 10 man harly squad getting shot up that probably cost you about 300 points isnt fun either.  but if your rolling lucky and your whole army comes in on turn 1 or 2 then hells gonna break loose in your favor.  nothing would be left alive probably.  its a great risk but if you pull it through you wont even let them shoot ya. i like it how it is now.  although thats just my opinion.  well im off to go try out my lists against tau and necrons most likely today.  wish me luck.

[InfinityCircuit]

If I were to construct a Dark Veil army, I would actually focus on units that can't wipe out enemies.  I would take small units with Dread Masks to break the enemy and run into another squad.  This way the problem of getting shot up is alleviated.  Also I believe skimmers can come out of a blocked portal--so Venom mounted squads could help with this problem.  As I look more into it, it appears that it's like the 13th company list--many weaknesses, but answers for all of them.

Good luck fenix!

[Rasmus]

I had a game with one unit come out in turn 1, get killed, and then the opponent started parking on teh gate, killing the two units in turn 2, and hten blocking it completely. End-game. It is too much a gamble to be an assured gamewinner, even though it may look like a really nasty thing on paper. This is the problem with a lot of the Harlequin-things and the criers of cheese; a lot of the stuff in the list looks really really dangerous, but when on the field of battle it is not that dangerous after all.

[InfinityCircuit]

I had a game with one unit come out in turn 1, get killed, and then the opponent started parking on teh gate, killing the two units in turn 2, and hten blocking it completely. End-game. It is too much a gamble to be an assured gamewinner, even though it may look like a really nasty thing on paper. This is the problem with a lot of the Harlequin-things and the criers of cheese; a lot of the stuff in the list looks really really dangerous, but when on the field of battle it is not that dangerous after all.

Am I correct that the Venom can still come out of the gate?

This is also why it is imperative that we go out and mainstream this list.  If people realize it isn't actually that strong then I'm sure many opinions will change for the better.

[Rasmus]

Yes, the Venom can get through the gate, everything save the looted vehicles can.

I am not that into mainstreaming the list; if I can play with and have fun it is enough for me, and if others can have fun with it too, then that's a bonus, but I am not sure if this is something most people want to play as the "Official Harlequins" this way. It is not really that important, anyway, since GW is not touching this. I have still not gotten any response from my last submission of this over a year ago.

[InfinityCircuit]

Yes, the Venom can get through the gate, everything save the looted vehicles can.

I am not that into mainstreaming the list; if I can play with and have fun it is enough for me, and if others can have fun with it too, then that's a bonus, but I am not sure if this is something most people want to play as the "Official Harlequins" this way. It is not really that important, anyway, since GW is not touching this. I have still not gotten any response from my last submission of this over a year ago.

I think you misunderstand my question.  I'm asking if the gate is blocked, can the Venom's skimmer status allow it to still get out?

I didn't necessarily mean mainstream per-se, I meant go out and actively use it to dispel notions of being overpowered.

[Rasmus]

If the gate is blocked and you can't place the Venom then it is destroyed as well. There are no exceptions here. I might put that in too. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Fenix7729]

well yesterday i played two 1000pts games.  great fun but lost both of them.  first game was a 3 way free for all and i tore apart some tau.  after the tau were gone though, the SMs were still there and got wiped.  my solitare alone took down little more than half the tau's army with impetuousness of youth witch REALLY helped.  he left his shas'o out in the open all alone and killed that of course and i just kept running into more and more units until i didnt have anything else to run into, then i got shot up.  that game was the one with the Eldar Online Codex and i think it worked nicely.  

the second game was me and the tau player vs space wolves.  he murdered me and i was using the Eye of Terror rules along with the original rules for harlequins.  i was failing to wound any of his wolves with the freakin harlequin kiss's and i had about some kisses in the army. not just 1 or 2.  my solitare was even failing to wound with a kiss.  i just rolled ones the whole time.  didnt even kill his rune priest witch i did expect him to since my archon in my DE army does every single time in the first turn with a punisher.  but a solitare cant?  thats pretty bad rolling.  i didnt start having good luck until close to the end of the game with only 1 death jester left.  my shadow seer couldnt even kill 2 scouts because i was rolling so bad.  when i had only 1 death jester left i finally started getting 6's and 5's and blew up his predetor along with some of his normal guys, but dang, that game was awful, but fun.

In the end, I like the revision.  no one at my store really understood and hated it even without looking at it but thats because they're a**holes anyways.  anything i bring in there they always make fun of.  so i liked it.  the only 2 people that werent a**holes in the store were my opponents in the first game and they said it was pretty good.  I also like the hit and fade rule.  it balances out greatly for the harlequins because the game i didnt have it, i couldnt hit crap even with my charge bonuses.  so i really needed to reroll the misses on my charge enspecially my solitare.  I like the revision and i like the way things are going.  hopefully rasmus, you'll be more than just "some guy" at my store.  its all come a long way and im glad i could help by playtesting it.  next time ill be ready for anything, since yesterday was my first time playing harlequins.  well, hope this helps.

[InfinityCircuit]

well yesterday i played two 1000pts games.  great fun but lost both of them.  first game was a 3 way free for all and i tore apart some tau.  after the tau were gone though, the SMs were still there and got wiped.  my solitare alone took down little more than half the tau's army with impetuousness of youth witch REALLY helped.  he left his shas'o out in the open all alone and killed that of course and i just kept running into more and more units until i didnt have anything else to run into, then i got shot up.  that game was the one with the Eldar Online Codex and i think it worked nicely. 

the second game was me and the tau player vs space wolves.  he murdered me and i was using the Eye of Terror rules along with the original rules for harlequins.  i was failing to wound any of his wolves with the freakin harlequin kiss's and i had about some kisses in the army. not just 1 or 2.  my solitare was even failing to wound with a kiss.  i just rolled ones the whole time.  didnt even kill his rune priest witch i did expect him to since my archon in my DE army does every single time in the first turn with a punisher.  but a solitare cant?  thats pretty bad rolling.  i didnt start having good luck until close to the end of the game with only 1 death jester left.  my shadow seer couldnt even kill 2 scouts because i was rolling so bad.  when i had only 1 death jester left i finally started getting 6's and 5's and blew up his predetor along with some of his normal guys, but dang, that game was awful, but fun.

In the end, I like the revision.  no one at my store really understood and hated it even without looking at it but thats because they're a**holes anyways.  anything i bring in there they always make fun of.  so i liked it.  the only 2 people that werent a**holes in the store were my opponents in the first game and they said it was pretty good.  I also like the hit and fade rule.  it balances out greatly for the harlequins because the game i didnt have it, i couldnt hit crap even with my charge bonuses.  so i really needed to reroll the misses on my charge enspecially my solitare.  I like the revision and i like the way things are going.  hopefully rasmus, you'll be more than just "some guy" at my store.  its all come a long way and im glad i could help by playtesting it.  next time ill be ready for anything, since yesterday was my first time playing harlequins.  well, hope this helps.

Congratulations!  Would you be interested in posting your lists for critique?

Thanks Rasmus for clearing that up by the way.  I personally feel that like the DE WWP skimmers should still be able to go away, but that might be too powerful.

I'll admit that I lost a game today with the Harlequins, using my 1500 point list posted in this forum.  Then again, I guess I shouldn't be too ashamed of having to fight an Armored Company!  My 4 DJs and 2 Fusion Guns just couldn't hold up to the sheer might of 6 Leman Russes, a Laser Destroyer, a Hellhound, and 2 Sentinels.  I was able to kill the Hellhound and Sentinels early one with Shuriken Pistols but the rest I couldn't touch.  Thanks to my DJs making about 8 Cover Saves in a row, my opponent ended the game with an immobilized, Lascannon destroyed Tank Ace and his Laser Destroyer.  However I had nothing left that could harm the tanks.  Alas, there was nothing that the revision could do here!  However it does make me hungry for some more Bright Lances.

[Rasmus]

If you could get with Venoms then you would be safe if you mount everything on Venoms... That would negate the risks with the portal getting blocked.

I like hearing about people losing. If all we got was that people won it would tell us we had been, and still were doing, something very very wrong.

[InfinityCircuit]

I played another game with my 402 point Harlequins force.  This one has a 6-man Venom squad and 10 Mimes.  I rolled over a Dark Angels force today, and rightly so if I might say so myself .  My opponent, obsessed with Ravenwing, took only 10 models and a Razorback.  I was able to wipe him out to the man very quickly, losing only a Harlequin Trouper and my Venom in the process.  However luck was on my side--like making 16/20 Shuriken Pistol shots with regular Harlequin ballistic skill.  I might play a rematch against this guy today.

EDIT: Conclusions:  The list is strong, and balanced.  I just realized that I think the Mime Superb Infiltrator rule should be reworded with the Scouts Universal Special Rule--I don't believe it is at the present.  As far as general rules so far I've found that Fleet of Foot makes the new Infiltrator 12" rule overpowered.

[Fenix7729]

yeah here's the first list witch was really bad but the second one was a better list and i think it would have done better if i played the second list with eldar online rules.  but i think i would have lost either way, just not by as much.

First List (bad one)
Shadow Seer-Impetuouness of Youth, Veil of Tears, D-field, Dreadmask, 2 Familiars, Harlequin Kill, Stormglove, Neuro Disruptor, Tangle Foot Grenades
He was in the Venom

Solitare-Harlequin Kill, Stormglove, D-Field, Shuriken Pistol, Bio-explosive ammo (just for fun), plasma grenade

5 Harlequins w/3 Fell Blades, Harlequin Kiss, and Power Weapon and leader with storm glove and Harlequin Kiss, all had tanglefoot grenades
In Venom, Venom had holo field.

9 Harlequins- 5 Fell blades, Harlequin Kiss, and Power weapon and leader with storm glove and harlequin kill and all had tanglefoot grenades.

Now before you say anything, I know, its a bad list, even for my first list for the harlequins.  I had way to much stuff on the shadow seer which he shouldnt have.  I shouldv'e put a phase field on the solitare and took alot of crap off of the shadow seer.  i shouldnt have used a leader for my harly troupes and it didnt help having a speeder come up beside my venom and shooting it with a multi melta on the first turn. (small map)  im glad i had the holo field on it or they would have been toasted.  too much wargear was in and not enough people.

Second List (better but still... and old rules too)

Shadow Seer-Harlequin Kiss, Power Blades, Shuriken Pistol

Solitare- D-Field, Harlequin Kiss, Power Blades, Dread Mask, Plasma Grenade, Phase Field, Shuriken Pistol

2 Death Jesters with Brightlances

2 squads of 10 Harlequins with one Harlequin Kiss and one Power Weapon

so these are pretty bad army list i know.  im going to soon play a 1 on 1 game with necrons then tau with my harlequins.  bigger scale too but still proxy models.  glad i could help by losing .