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Offline Tango

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #700 on: September 2, 2005, 02:02:58 PM »
Suggestion: Instead of extending there kill zones, why not let harlies move about combat like exarches with that power?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #701 on: September 2, 2005, 07:10:09 PM »
That power has generally been considered useless.  The thing about extending kill zones is that it allows you to strike enemies without giving them the chance to strike back.  The Exarch abilities let the opponent strike back as well.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #702 on: September 2, 2005, 07:45:11 PM »
Hey Rasmus, as promised my thoughts posted, and your replies already integrated, andmine back on them.  Blue = rasmus's comments. Orange = my replies i should say i envisage teh harlequins always as a small , fast moving, hard hitting army, with no slow aspect in the slightest. I believe the best way for us players to do this is to produce a list which mirrors this, without any excessive beardiness. We wany people to play us.

Warlocks:  I like these as they fit in, change wording to "+ 1 attack per model".
  I will look at that.

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Mime Disruption: Good and a fair table, but this should be a 0-1 choice, rather than per number in the army.
  Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

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Master Mime: Baby solitaire to be. I like. But make a choice that can only be fielded if one unit of mimes is present in the force.
  You're right. He is even supposed to be.

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Looted vehicle: back to the old days, but I would limit them to smaller craft only as webway travel doesn't allow big vehicles so:

Orks: Trukk, Guntrukk, Buggies, Traks

Imp Guard: Sentinel

Marines: Land Speeders + Variants, Rhinos, Razorback

Eldar: Vyper, War Walker

Dark Eldar: Raider
These last three are bought normally without looted vehicle roll, as same technology.

the point of the looting is that they are vehicles that the
Harlequins have acquired *after* coming onto the field, and that they
will abandon them when they break down or the Harlequins leave the
scene of engagement, not that they bring them with them.


I think that after going to the trouble of looting, and repainting why throw away a perfectly good vehicle. Also looting larger vehicles give the list a chance to unbalance itself. I cannot imagine a fast moving hard hitting force using something as lumbering as a Leman Russ. By giving a similar list as the ork lootas have you are basiclly giving your army a massive range of options without the problems faced by orks which is the rubbish BS. By limiting the choice to a small flavourful groups of vehicles it becomes a nice addition rather than the token basilisk at the back to help compensate for something all eldar lack  ;D
   The effort on stealing a mobile vehicle and driving off in it is neglible with the correct training. Let's assume the Harlequins have it. it is not like they are going to go through a lot of trouble of fixing anything up; just steal and go, slap a few holo-emitters on it and you are off! That is what "looting" is all about after all - minimising the effort as opposed to building the thing. This is why the vehicles can be bigger, odder, and so on.
   Also it was in the original list, and as I am sucker for history it was included here as well.

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Hit and Fade: Very powerful, especially when combined with our kit and dread mask. I think that we go through units well enough without having this. Perhaps make it a shadowseer, or warlock skill called Foresight at 20 points, cast on one unit within 6 inches, or unit accompanied at beginning of movement phase.
  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad. We needed to balance this somehow. A few suggestions have been made for this, and this is the one we are currently working on. It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.


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Familiars: Why? No thanks? I think that they ruin the idea of a shadowseer and they should be removed. Complicated and unnecessary. I prefer the idea of a retinue of warlocks that little creatures with pointy teeth. Please lose them in the warp ;D.

I am including them for completeness, as they were included in an
older Citadel Journal. I didn't feel it was my place to cut up original
units.

I personally think that this is teh perfect place. Lose the chaff. They don't quite fit in , in my view, but please comment on them.
    Well, I am not dropping this as a big part of the revision is about including that which the Harlequins used to have. There used to be Benathai, so there are Benathai. If you don't like them then do as the lot of people not liking the Spiritwalker; don't use it.

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Flight Belt and Flight belt troops: It think that this is particulary unfluffy. Although the idea of flying quins is nice I think that they are in, just to fill a slot rather than add to the flavour of the army. What I would add would be a unit similar but with phase field technology, like warp spiders do at the moment. Add hit and run and you have a sweet deal. Keep them 35 points each, with the same upgrades. This way you have a flavour, with fast, difficult to hit troops with the warp teleporting, and you move away from the jump pack troops feel of standard armies.
   Again, these were in the original list, and therefore included. Flight-belts were different then, but they had a place in there.

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Actually playtestesting has shown that this limits the heavy
firepower, and makes for a fluffier Harlequin-list, free from the 9 DJs
and then additional support.


I see your point here but by making them jump pack troops you seem to just copy other armys. The idea of phase fields is already there (spiders and our own phase fields and would be a change and be fluffy in the way that enemy see there oppoenents who literally vanish and appear elsewhere in a blinding flash. Don't get me wrong i like the idea of fast moving jump troops, but i think we could improve teh way which we face teh thought rather than the old, "strap a rokkit to its back"
   That was in comment to making DJs Elites and not Heavy though, and has nothing to do with the Flightbelters...

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Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes. Combined with the Dread mask, mask of fear, hallucinogen grenades, and the hit and fade as it stands at the moment they are too powerful. We already beat 95% of troops with initiative. Why halve it again? Too powerful and not needed. What would be better is that tanglefoot grenades reduced the enemy unit by -1 attack to a minimum of 1. A slight edge, but not overpowering. Cost 4 points per model.
   The points you are investing in a single trouper with all of those upgrades is horrendous and I would be shocked if you could not make a cc-monster with the same points in any other army out there. And Tanglefoot does not halve initative in combat, just for running people to ground.


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Death Jesters: Move back to Elites. Keep as they are. By moving them to HS you have only two Elite choices, but 4 HS. Unbalanced. Also the player has to choose between some heavy firepower and master mime or solitaire.
   This is what I commented above.


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Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along.

 They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.


Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.
  It is more about the Eldar/DE fighting alongside the Harlequins than the Harlequins trying to recruit them, as outlined in the "Sneaking off to join the circus"-rule. Again, if you don't feel they fit in then just don't use them.


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Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.

change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).
 
I like the choice of a mix and match of excellence, rather than a good expensive squad/bad cheap squad option. This cuts down on min/max possibilities.
   So basically pay three times the guardiancost for a deepstriking banshee without powerweapon? That makes very little sense indeed.


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Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same. Keep as the current CJ44, but up the cost to 110 pts basic. Also change the weapon options to D-cannon + 30, vibro cannon + 40, Shadow Weaver + 15, Fire pike, +20, (losing EML, starcannon, shuriken cannon, brightlance as this are what a standard wraithlord has, and are known for.). Also make them 0-1, as I really hate facing armies with 2-3 wraithlords let alone a quin one.
   It was originally intended for T7 in CJ 44 but was mangled in editing. It is supposed to balance the coversave and armour, and stop a bit of the cheese. If it was T8 with 3+/4+-cover then it would need to be 200 points to balance against other such elements in the game. And it is 0-1 with a prerequisite Shadowseer...


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Additions and changes:


Riveblade:   Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades.

Riveblades is the new name for "Stormglove" which is like a small
lightningclaw. It is not a scythe or something.


Its a cool name so make an item called that.
   The Harlequins have never had a twohanded weapon ever. The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

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Pistols: Give me twin link baby. Paired pistols are on a lot of figures. Grant extra attack as paired CC weapons
  Again you have moved my comment.... And an extra pistol always adds +1A.

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Fusion Pistol (15) (20 to twin link) - brings cost in line with imperial inferno pistol, which is better.

Plasma Pistol (15) (20)

Shuriken Pistol (1) (3) – can bio explosive ammo at 5pts per gun.

Needle Pistol (2) (5)                 Range:12"        Str: X   AP -     Type:  Pistol

Always wounds on a 4+.

This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. The option of twin-linking pistols could mean that people might think twice in not taking a stormglove, or kiss.

   As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.

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Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair. again as above option for a different type of character weapon choice. After all we are teh masters of hand to hand. This is not different to paired lighting claws.
   But is you compare just the sheer size and power of the lighttningsclaw to the stormglove it is a completely different weapon. Also the stormglove adds something unique to the army as they are now; why make them more bland?


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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.
   Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

 
Suggestion: Instead of extending there kill zones, why not let harlies move about combat like exarches with that power?
   It would add a lot of complexity to the game though. It is ok for a single Exarch in a few elite-squads, but in a squad with 10 Harlequins it would be a pain...

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Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #703 on: September 3, 2005, 01:57:43 PM »
Hello again,
Anyone new to this please read my post on p35 of this thread begore commenting as rasmus and i have cut a fair portion of it out  :)

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Mime Disruption:   Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.

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Looted vehicle:    The effort on stealing a mobile vehicle ....Also it was in the original list, and as I am sucker for history it was included here as well.

Fair enough.

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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.

I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.




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Familiars: why? no thanks?.....lose the chaff. Well, I am not dropping this as a big part of the revision is about including that which the Harlequins used to have. There used to be Benathai, so there are Benathai. If you don't like them then do as the lot of people not liking the Spiritwalker; don't use it.

Fair point  ;D

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Flight Belt vs phase field:  Again, these were in the original list, and therefore included. Flight-belts were different then, but they had a place in there

Perhaps give them the choice. Flight belts for +10 a figure. Phase Field + 7 a figure. thats way broader options.


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Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes....The points you are investing in a single trouper with all of those upgrades is horrendous and I would be shocked if you could not make a cc-monster with the same points in any other army out there. And Tanglefoot does not halve initative in combat, just for running people to ground.

I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.

As in this roll there are no automatic passes or fails it is impossible for most troops to win this roll against a solitaire.
8+1 = 9, which cannot be beat by anyone with base initiative of 3 or 4, as 2 + 6 = 8.

The stastistical probability of passing against a basic trooper is way to high. As this is now such an important part of the game and you can kill whole units with ease i think any list will have GW say no.Totally unfair, and game breaker, needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is not a breaker as it costs, but is very useful.

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Death Jesters: Move back to Elites... This is what I commented above.
The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.


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Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along. They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.[/color]

Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.

  It is more about the Eldar/DE fighting alongside the Harlequins than the Harlequins trying to recruit them, as outlined in the "Sneaking off to join the circus"-rule. Again, if you don't feel they fit in then just don't use them.

 I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.


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Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.

change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).

   So basically pay three times the guardiancost for a deepstriking banshee without powerweapon? That makes very little sense indeed.
Ah, but the ability to assault out of deep strike more than pays for itself. a general can use these troops to tie down enemy and remove heavy support units. Imagine ann approaching amrine army finding that its heavy suuport has been toasted by a squad of mimes who appear in cover, move, shoot neurodisruptors then assualt the big guns. 

Its a risky venture, but points must be paid to compenstae for such a good power. Its not about comparisons, its about fitting points costs to skills and fluff.

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Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same.....It was originally intended for T7 in CJ 44 but was mangled in editing. It is supposed to balance the coversave and armour, and stop a bit of the cheese. If it was T8 with 3+/4+-cover then it would need to be 200 points to balance against other such elements in the game. And it is 0-1 with a prerequisite Shadowseer...

Firstly 0-1 is good.

The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.

By Upping its cost, and giving shorter range weapons, <24" instead of longer. you balance out the T8 and cover save as it has to be used as a close support option more, bringing it into the range of more firepower. I think that this really needs to be adreesed, but i don't see lowering teh toughness is the way forward. I find that there are enough big guns around which can take downa a wraithlord, most of which render the 3+ armour save useless. And with the precedent set bu assualt cannon, we are forever grateful that we are tough enough to bounce bolter fire, else or 0-1 blokey is a sitting duck.

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Riveblade:   Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades. The Harlequins have never had a twohanded weapon ever.

And? Are you telling me the idea of a quin gracefully taking apart foes witha two handed sword isn't cool.

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The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I am sure ceratin players would love anti install kit, kit which helps agaisnt shooting, such as teh tau stelth suits etc.
I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.

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Pistols: Give me twin link baby....This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.


Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  ;) perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.

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Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair.
   But is you compare just the sheer size and power of the lighttningsclaw to the stormglove it is a completely different weapon. Also the stormglove adds something unique to the army as they are now; why make them more bland?

I think you misunderstood me keep the stormglove abilities just make the option of pairing. Not a bland idea. Makes the possibility of a character nails against oher characters but also very specialised.

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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.

Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

you spend 80 points on one guy only to have him move out to shoot, miss and then be a sitting duck. if we sty it cannot be combined with a phase field then we have a winner.

This is not different to a tau crisis suit jumping out firing 4 str7 weapons and hiding. granted its bigger, but it has better armour and drones. we don't. and they can be independants and cost about teh same.
The EML thing is still a pain as you need to be out already to shoot the damn thing.

its back to the arms race thing.

hope these comments help, and try to get my point across. I dont want to be having to play witha ridiculously overpowered army, s i love a challenge, but i think certain changes need to be made to make us a 4th ed army in all senses, not just a throwback to the old days.


ever thought about vortex grenades?  ;) heheheh


best regards

tarrin
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #704 on: September 3, 2005, 07:54:21 PM »
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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.
I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.

I don't quite understand your logic.  You feel that we should replace a theoretically 'overpowered' skill with something that removes our only theoretical weakness?  How is this balancing? 

1.) Hit & Fade is fine the way it is.
In your argument you highlight all the reasons why Hit & Fade ISN'T overpowered.  We already hit at a high rate, making an increase negligible.  Our issues with Wyches are very serious.  The Dark Eldar have plenty of mobility and firepower, along with a close-combat unit more efficient than we are.  Something must be done about this--and making our chances to get in hits is a perfect way to do it.

I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but we've already had some arguments about this.  Here are a couple previous incarnations:
-Hit & Fade=Furious Charge.  This was deemed unfluffy--especially the fluff bonus.
-Hit & Fade=re-rolled to-wound rolls.  This was deemed unbalanced because it makes Power Weapons and the Stormglove inordinately powerful compared to the Harlequin's Kiss.

We eventually settled on this incarnation because it seemed balanced and also accentuated a facet of the Harlequins we found important--fast-attacking with large quantities of attacks.

2.) Your suggestion wouldn't work.
I never take Fell-blades on my Harlequins in playtesting, and I have found Death Guard/Terminators to be difficult to handle with ordinary logistical method/tactical maneuvers.  However, before tackling this issue I'd like to make two points:

A) Is the issue with the Harlequins or is it with the general?  I'm not insulting anyone's ability, but different armies take different strategies.  All the high-toughness, high-save armies have a distinct lack of long-ranged firepower.  This is their accentuating weakness.  It must be capitalized upon

B) Any change needs to be compared to its effect on other changes.  Would giving all our units HCC make them too powerful against Sisters of Battle or Salamanders?

Avoidance and deception are the key to fighting Death Guard and other T5 armies, not extra close-combat prowess.  Death Guard are slow--they are designed that way.  Death Jesters and Spiritwalkers are excellent weapons platforms, and can be put to good use here.  When the enemy is disoriented, strike!

I think the answer to the second question is yes.  If all our Harlequins got HCC for free, it WOULD make them overpowered against Marines.  In my many games against Marines, I've never really had any trouble.  (FYI--I find the most difficult enemies to be Tyranids and the Wyche Cult, with Daemonhunters a close second.)  Adding in Heavy Close Combat weapons might help against the hard-as-nails Terminators, but there are others ways to deal with these guys.  HCC weapons would turn Marines v. Harlequins from a balanced fight to a slaughter for the Harlequins.

I like your idea though--it was suggested a while ago (along with some more outrageous things!) and I think the reasons we had then for making them an upgrade instead of free still hold firm.

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Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.
Possibly, but I don't really see any evidence of that.  And Alaitoc is the other way around--Guardians are limited by the number of Rangers, not Rangers by the number of Guardians.

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I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.

As in this roll there are no automatic passes or fails it is impossible for most troops to win this roll against a solitaire.
8+1 = 9, which cannot be beat by anyone with base initiative of 3 or 4, as 2 + 6 = 8.

The stastistical probability of passing against a basic trooper is way to high. As this is now such an important part of the game and you can kill whole units with ease i think any list will have GW say no.Totally unfair, and game breaker, needs to be looked at.

My suggestion is not a breaker as it costs, but is very useful.

Tanglefoot grenades are not overpowered.  There is a reason they only work in the first round of combat.  If we make a unit run, we may kill it, but that precious Solitaire is about to be shot up.  I recommend reading in WD304 Jeff Leong's article on The Horde.  Many of the tactics used by the Skaven (sacrificial units to lure enemies, etc.) can be used against Tanglefoot grenades quite effectively.

In fact, I think Tanglefoot grenades are a bit underpowered.  But then again every army has such a thing, like the SoB Sarissa.

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Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I am sure ceratin players would love anti install kit, kit which helps agaisnt shooting, such as teh tau stelth suits etc.
I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.

Yes.  Things need to change.  But adding in a two-handed scythe because someone thinks it is 'cool' is not what that means!  (I hope you don't take offence, but I'm not sure if you are understanding what I'm saying)

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Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  Wink perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.

FoF is necessary for non-Venom groups every turn of the game.  Adding this in is a possiblity I like--but I'm not sure how useful it would be.

In conclusion, we're looking for relative balance and historical value--not a powergamer's army or necessarily one keeping up with the myth of 'codex creep'.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #705 on: September 3, 2005, 09:11:36 PM »
in reply

hit and fade: all my oppenents have complained that i get enough attacks combined with a 3+ to hit with fancy kit that the rerolls are over powering. i am only going on my experiences. i cannot think of another unit in teh game so tooled up as us that gets a 3+ reolled to hit on every charge.

agree on the furious charge and the rerolls to wound, which is why i didnt add them as ideas  :)

I suggested the heavy CC as a facet of the skill, finding the chinks in armour.

This also comes from the two handed blade thing, which does rending. I consider rending to be the ultimate finding a hole of teh armour) over massive damage. I suggested two handed as them we arent been overpowered by the extra attacks.


On the point of high toughness armies, we have to consider no everyone will play true armies. the two guys here who play nurgle ( as with most of the chaos) never pick a pure army. It will be nurgle troops supported by fast and hard hitting stuff, so the balance is lost. also the ability to fire as stationary ( dieseased bulk?) really neutralises that arguement. nurgle are also fearless which ruins that way of beating them. affecting the armour as above seems fair.

Against sisters its not a problem (spirit of the martyr = 3+ inv.) as well as 20 man units in power armour all with bolters. and i have never played agaisnst salamanders so cant comment.
but against marines in general s3 vs t4 is a fair balancer, as well the we shall know no fear rules.
Upgrade then, but my views on hit and fade still stand.


i actually find necrons to be the real pain as they high high leadership, toughness 3+ armour and teh we'll be back. The real killer is teh monolith teleport out of combat which is awful for us. daemonhunters go down a treat as tehy are just fancy marines . nids i use neurodisruptors on teh troops and dj's on teh big guys.
it was decided here, i am not sure that this is a common rule, that the neurodisruptor goes on unmodified leadership, so no synapse.
The best way to handle stealers is let them assualt you, as you go first.

tanglefoots, you dont have to use them, and on thier own they are not overpowered but combined with our other kit they are. just trying to look at the big picture.


i am not trying to pick a fight and i will never take offence to anything anyone says on a discussion board, likewise i hope that everyone realises i am only playing devils advocate.

FoF. i actually use it very rarely. I use mimes and venom troops but tend to keep my non venom units safe in cover or for holding scenery. i think the shooting option would give a player exactly what that is, an option, to either fleet of foot or shoot the fancy gun.
i think the option to go gun heavy is a surprise that opponents would fear and help us agaisnt armies liek teh deathwing and other skimmer heavy armies.
i totally agree with removing codex creep or the 40k arms race as we call it. historical yes, but you must be careful not to use too much as harlequins were overpowering then. i am sickened by the whole powergamers ideal. i hate it in lrp and tabletop and even more in 40k. i played a marine force yesterday that had master in artificer armour and halo, 2 x scout units, 9 speeder tornadoes, 3 dreadnoughts. more assault cannon than you can imagine.
I personally think that they should be a challenging army to use, and have downsides. i want to see teh qins suceed and be a playable fun army, but i don't want opponenets to see us as a beardy, cc army, the way blood angels were when rhino rush was still legal.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #706 on: September 3, 2005, 09:12:56 PM »
ps wyches. i found shreiker cannons work a treat.

However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #707 on: September 3, 2005, 10:22:53 PM »
"Use the "Modify" to add stuff to your post rather than to post another in sequence," as Rasmus so aptly said.   ;)

I don't think that we will really get anywhere by arguing this--we both have reasonable points and both are stubborn enough to not give up!

Going gun-heavy isn't very effective in 4th edition.  I wrote an article for 3rd edition about it but recently found the tactic to be grossly outdated.

Neuro-Disruptor does work on regular Ld since under the Synapse rules the Ld is not changed--the 'nids just can't fall back.

I completely agree that against Marines S3/T3 against S4/T4 already serves as a balancer.  But won't HCC upset that balance?  After all, every action has an opposite reaction ;)

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #708 on: September 4, 2005, 06:35:17 AM »
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Mime Disruption:   Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?

Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.
   I disagree. Very few will play Harleuqins without Harlequins. The comparative weakness of the Mimes when posed against the basic Trouper is so big that most will shy away from it. I have not seen any tendencies in the playtesting-groups that Mimes would be favoured over Troupers in the least.


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Hit and Fade:  The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.

I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.
   I side with Infinity-circuit here. You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think.

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I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.
    Thanks for finding that. Of course the Harlequins do not pursue 3D6" anymore. I will ammend the wording.

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The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.
  But then you are making the Harlequins about firepower. They are not, nor have they ever been about firepower. It is supposed to be a "support"-option, not a mainstay in the armystructure. This is a cc-based army.

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I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.
   1. The Harlequins visit the Craftworlds. They don't need "finding them". The CWEs are sought out.
   2. They are Elites now, and not Troops, so they can never fill the requirement.


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The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.
   Thus part of the appeal. The T8-monster is justa huge chunk of cheese in the eyes of many opponents, and might block you from playing the Harlequins at all. This way it is still a formidable opponent, although allowing you to play with the list still.


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And? Are you telling me the idea of a quin gracefully taking apart foes witha two handed sword isn't cool.

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The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.

Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.

I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.
   We are making a playable list out of the old material. There is no either/or there. However, it is anot about adding "cool stuf" as it appears to us. That would make either a splintered list or a vastly overpowered one. The Exodite-project here at 40konline initially suffered a lot from this, and still does to a degree, as every single unit is "cool" and has a vast array of special rules and power, the "apple in its creator's eye" so to speak. I just wanted this playable. If you want a "cool" two-handed weapon in a quin then make a scythe and call it a powerblade.


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Pistols: Give me twin link baby....This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.

The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.

Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know  ;) perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.
   Again this is moving the shift towards an army relying on shooting for killing things. I much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?


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Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.

Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.

you spend 80 points on one guy only to have him move out to shoot, miss and then be a sitting duck. if we sty it cannot be combined with a phase field then we have a winner.
  I think that with a 4+ coversave and good placement, target-saturation and being a single target (an entire squad has to fire just to take out a single shooter) he is everything but a sitting duck, and if my opposition wants to blow him away they are free to, as it allows one of my mainstay-units to get into combat instead, which is what the Harlequins are there for.

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Offline Red Avenger

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #709 on: September 5, 2005, 08:44:29 AM »
I apologize if this has been debated before but wouldn't be logical if Harlequins would have preferred enemy (Chaos) skill. Just a thought...

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #710 on: September 5, 2005, 09:30:15 AM »
It is an option that has not been considered, but I am sure it will be part of the 4th ed version sooner or later. It would be largely without effect as they allready hit on 3+, but still.

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Offline FarseerAldruan

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #711 on: September 5, 2005, 10:24:18 AM »
With regard to the different options for harlies, I think it would be better to have a list where it doesn't force the player down one path at once, they're free to make different choices, good or bad.  Such as taking Hellions in a DE army (okay, that's my opinion) or really kitting out an Incubi retinue (again, my opinion, but something that newcomers do a lot).  Granted, harlies are known for being all about assault, but it might be rewarding to give people the opportunity to mess up the list by adding pistols, which yield less mobile barely shooty 'quin squads, and such.  Then maybe the 'best list' wouldn't be quite so clear.  Again, as with the DE in 3rd ed., we wouldn't like to see only raider rush armies on the table (I pretty much did) but instead many acceptable (or unacceptable) variants of the harlie list.  This would encourage people to try harlequins, instead of saying, "you seen one harlie army, you've seen them all."  So I'm for adding some trivial equipment, or maybe even a unit that would turn out to be useless to the overall list, just to see what people do with them.
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Offline englishharlie

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #712 on: September 5, 2005, 01:41:37 PM »
With regards to twin-linked psitol options.

I would use it certainly. Imagine a venom with DJ and 6 quins, said harlies have 2 of their number equipped with double plasma pistols. So you have a transport which is a unit and then a DJ which is also a unit and then the harlies that are a third unit. Venom with it's 12" fusion gun firing at whatever, Dj with his weapon and then 2 twin linked PP shots from the regular harlies firing at what they want <smiley licking lips>. Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton. If not then you've got a single unit that can dish out a lot of anti tank firepower that also has the ability to get around to rear armour. I would at least try this out to see if I could make it work.

English

Oh and in a previous post (not from me) the 3D6 was in reference to a dread mask not the old flip-belt rules.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #713 on: September 5, 2005, 02:48:06 PM »
Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.

Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #714 on: September 5, 2005, 03:07:16 PM »
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Again this is moving the shift towards an army relying on shooting for killing things. I much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?
i actually love the idea of harlequins flying through teh air, paired pistols blazing john woo style and tehm taking it to the enemy using guns in h2h.
we have all seen transporter (and transporter 2) , equilibrium, and countless other movies that have this and its a nice idea.

As teh previous two posts have said, we dont want a situation of " seen one, seen them all". i think with the options , would give us more flexibility and make our opponents have to think more than sit at teh back and shoot, or bring hell hounds along.
the current figures have paired pistols, including teh awesome avatar figure with teh coat.
i think that this should be considered. remember basic harlies only have bs3 and against tank heavy forces, especillay skimmers we suck. this might help adress this rather than haing to rely on Dj's and haywire greandes. By adding this option you might tempt players away from relying on teh DJ heavy foirce that you berated above. Most players will take DJ's cause they are good and you do need the heavy weapons. By adding more gun options to troops you decrease the need for the long range support, which means that we take teh fightto the foe rather than hiding.
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Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.
Lovely seraphim have the option of hit and run which really helps the twin linked affair. we would not have this. Also we don't have power armour, bs4 and acts of faith to improve our shooting ( divine guidance).

as stated by english harlie, 3d6 = dread mask

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I side with Infinity-circuit here. You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think.


then keep the fell blades, but i still think the reroll hits on a charge is still too good. what do you thinkof the ideas of linking it with a warlock as a psychic power, as i suggested above. this way you have to pay points for it and isn't seen as cheese, much like the chaplian litanies of hate. A whole army doing it is silly. a couple choice units might be the thing.

tarrin




However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #715 on: September 5, 2005, 03:11:20 PM »
Now that you put it that way, I think you MAY be right.  Adding on TL-pistols would solve the issues of the models and also give us more flexiblity.  However the issue is whether or not we want to make such a huge bridge from assault to Sisters of Battle-esque techniques.

Not sure if that could be pulled off and even if it could it might come under the lable of stilton.

Just because something is not orthodox does not mean it smells like gorganzola!

What about just raising the basic harlies Bs to 4 or 5?

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #716 on: September 5, 2005, 03:26:10 PM »


Quote
The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.

  But then you are making the Harlequins about firepower. They are not, nor have they ever been about firepower. It is supposed to be a "support"-option, not a mainstay in the armystructure. This is a cc-based army.

sadly big guns help win games. i personally hate the way a basic guard unit has enough guns to take out a tank with ease, but thats the way the game works.

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I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.

   1. The Harlequins visit the Craftworlds. They don't need "finding them". The CWEs are sought out.
   2. They are Elites now, and not Troops, so they can never fill the requirement.

i think that they would pick from the best of teh best not cannon fodder. and having such large units really doesnt favour the harlequin way of fighting. as you siad above
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...much prefer the original idea of the Harlequins dancing across the field, summersaulting across obstacles and then cutting into the enemy than having them stop to gun down the opposition, don't you?...

then why bring a bunch of foot slogging short ranged numpties along just to get shot at. If you gave teh selection to teh best of teh eldar as elites so banshees, hawks, scorpions, wyches etc, then i could understand your reasoning but guardian , no way.

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The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.

Thus part of the appeal. The T8-monster is justa huge chunk of cheese in the eyes of many opponents, and might block you from playing the Harlequins at all. This way it is still a formidable opponent, although allowing you to play with the list still.

but still as i siad above far too many armies are stuffed with heavy gunz which are more than enough to take down a t8 monster, so why make it suspectible to st4.  most guns which hurt t8 are going to be above ap3 anyway, and a 4+ save really ins't that good. with the devastator, retributor, havoc, tanks, destroyers and guard with meltguns and plasma glaore why take away this units primary advantage. by making 0-1 you limit the cheese by two thirds. a price hike and shorter range and more flavoured weapons and we have a good unit.

 
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We are making a playable list out of the old material. There is no either/or there. However, it is anot about adding "cool stuf" as it appears to us. That would make either a splintered list or a vastly overpowered one.
but surely that where a playtest comes in. ideas put forward played and discarded when needed. If the ultimate aim is to present GW with a workable list then we should be adding stuff that we want, just ensuring that its not overpowered by self regulation. I know many lists made online suffer this but we should be above it. Makes whats nice and works, not put cool over sensibility at any time.
 

i hope that my comments make sense.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #717 on: September 5, 2005, 03:28:57 PM »
Quote
What about just raising the basic harlies Bs to 4 or 5?
because you are getting something really good for free. We want to pay for our natty stuff and by just bumping up stats you add to the arms race. twin link options means that you can tailor your force towards shooting , rather than just having a sword and h2h army that can shoot well.

However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Tango

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #718 on: September 5, 2005, 03:47:52 PM »
Its how they used to be, They allready have enough weeknesses. (no armour saves, low strengh and low toughness). But if the Bs was to be raised, the  cost of plasma pistols and fusion pistols should also be altered accordingly.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #719 on: September 5, 2005, 05:29:34 PM »
Tarrin: for a second time please use the modify button instead of double posting ;)

With regard to Seraphim/Sisters of Battle: My point is not that we have Hit & Run or Power Armor.  Sisters of Battle are a unique army in that they are build for short range firefights, not close combat, and not long range firefights.  If we give Harlequins the option of TL pistols I'm worried they might turn into a short-range firefight army that can also easily assault and decimate enemies.

 


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