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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 138526 times)

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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #620 on: May 30, 2005, 10:22:10 AM »
Coversaves apply in that instance. But they shouldn't. Or rather, Holofield should not work as ordinary Coversave. Because it's not cover. It's an optical illusion.

EDIT:

Ok, I've finally decided upon how I think it's best to solve the problem with the fields, no CC save that also follows fluff.

Holo field: Any model shooting at a model with a holofield has to pass a Nightfight test to check if he/she can spot the harlequin. In addition, any opponent fighting a model equipped with a holo field halves his WS rounding up. (or is it down).

All harlequins are equipped with refractor field, that give a 5+ invunerable save. Mimics, troupe leaders and IC can choose to upgrade to a Conversion field for +10 pts.

They will no longer get the flip belt save in CC, but have the 5+/4+ fields.

I'd like your opinions on this?

« Last Edit: June 1, 2005, 12:24:55 PM by Roy »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #621 on: June 1, 2005, 01:16:54 PM »
1. It increases complexity a LOT. IN a large engagement we are talking about a dozen night-fight-rolls per turn, of every game. That would be taxing.
2. The Harlequins never sported Refractorfields as a carte blanche like that, and even though it looks nice, it is still moving away from the original idea.
And in the end, it is just removing a coversave that gets removed anyway, for no reason other than to add complexity. I cannot say I am a fan of added complexity at this point :)

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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #622 on: June 1, 2005, 01:20:56 PM »
1. I see your point on compexity. It would be alot of rolls...
2. No, they did not, but it is a compromise though. It gives them a save that works all over, though. I just cannot like the fact that any simpleton with a flamer can toast easily 100+ points of harlies in a single go.

Back to the drawing board, (WHY did they HAVE to remove negative to hit modifers. It allowed for more options!!) No change of giving it such a rule I suppose?

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #623 on: June 1, 2005, 05:56:33 PM »
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #624 on: June 1, 2005, 06:01:12 PM »
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 

No, back in the days of 2nd edition, cover saves did not work as they do now. Cover made a unit more difficult to hit with shooting. Soft Cover gave a -1 modifer, hard cover -2. Runnig over 10" caused another -1 and Holofield causes -2. The Ranger Camelioline gave a -1 negative modifer as well.

Basicallly, it was a game mechanic that made things harder to hit. But in 3d ed, they decided to make the rules simpler. Oversimplified in my opinion. Now we have alot of weird rules to represent the same thing.


Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #625 on: June 1, 2005, 06:10:56 PM »
Ah i c.  I didn't ever play 2nd edition.  3rd edition is when i started playing.  That wouldnt be a bad idea, but does the modifier apply to the dice roll or the shooters BS?
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #626 on: June 1, 2005, 06:14:23 PM »
Ah i c.  I didn't ever play 2nd edition.  3rd edition is when i started playing.  That wouldnt be a bad idea, but does the modifier apply to the dice roll or the shooters BS?

It applies to the dice roll. But don't get worked up. GW removed it, and will not reintroduce it until most people have forgotten such a thing ever existed. Like in 7th ed. :P

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #627 on: June 1, 2005, 06:23:06 PM »
thatll be awhile.  eh, i only have to wait about 20 years for 7th edition, CANT WAIT!  lol, anyways.  Why not just give all harlequins a 5+ invulnerable and the D-Field increases the invulnerable save to 4+?
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #628 on: June 1, 2005, 06:29:12 PM »
If simplistic is the key, a 4+ invunerable save for the field would be easier than a coversave, and flipbelt save.
It would make me fear template weapons alot less, that's for sure. But such a save might not be very fluffy.

Offline Ryko

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #629 on: June 1, 2005, 09:16:25 PM »
i like the Dfield having to hit on 6, because if you can't see someone because of all the shifting colours, you can only hit through sheer luck. i do think something should be done regarding the save though. just because you can't see someone doesn't mean that if you hit it might not hurt them because their colours are shifted. maybe haveing the holo suit makes the enemies hit on a certain dice roll (you would haev to test to see if 4 is too easy or is 5+ is too cheap)

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #630 on: June 1, 2005, 10:32:15 PM »
Roy: when you asked why did they have to get rid of the negative to hit modifiers, what did you mean by that?  Did you mean the opponents WS is cut in half in CC, or for example,  just a -1 to your opponents WS or dice roll? 

No, back in the days of 2nd edition, cover saves did not work as they do now. Cover made a unit more difficult to hit with shooting. Soft Cover gave a -1 modifer, hard cover -2. Runnig over 10" caused another -1 and Holofield causes -2. The Ranger Camelioline gave a -1 negative modifer as well.

Basicallly, it was a game mechanic that made things harder to hit. But in 3d ed, they decided to make the rules simpler. Oversimplified in my opinion. Now we have alot of weird rules to represent the same thing.



This is the way it works in Fantasy...I personally prefer it to the current way.

1. It increases complexity a LOT. IN a large engagement we are talking about a dozen night-fight-rolls per turn, of every game. That would be taxing.

But isn't this exactly the way Grey Knights work with The Shrouding?  I wouldn't be so quick to discount it as unfeasible.

Nonetheless I prefer the current way--Roy's suggestion would also require reworking of Misdirection, and I don't see anyway to change that.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #631 on: June 2, 2005, 03:27:34 AM »
But isn't this exactly the way Grey Knights work with The Shrouding?  I wouldn't be so quick to discount it as unfeasible.
   Yes it is, and if you have ever played a larger engagement against that you know how much of a pain it is, and why people will go "are you playing those guys again? Awww man!" and then not play them. I have seen that happen too.

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Offline JaedenKaal

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #632 on: June 4, 2005, 11:30:59 AM »
Just a few thoughts, having read all 32 pages of the thread *pant, pant*

If you're still having troubles with bio-explosive ammo, I offer what might be considered a less complex solution.  Rather than using a template to represent the explosion, assign d3 extra hits to the unit, which wound on a roll of 4+ and ignore armor.  Due to the majority toughness/armor save rules, this change should not affect the overall impact of the weapon (ie, it'll be really hard to have the weakest model in the squad die and take out a terminator in the explosion).  It's a little easier than trying to figure out who died to the explosive shot, I think.  If you think it's necessary, add a line that states that each surviving model in the squad can only be hint once by this effect, even if there are less survivors than extra hits.

Second... am I reading the powerglove entry correctly?  It seems to me that a model with a powerglove attacking a multi-wound creature with, say, T6, automatically kills the model if it wounds it once, since it can only wound on a 6+.  Perhaps this should be changed to trigger on the to-hit roll (rather like rending) so something like "If a stormglove attack hits on a roll of 6, a successful wound will kill the opposing model outright, regardless of wounds (the model is allowed an invunerable save as normal)"

Anyways.  Other than that, congratulations to Rasmus and all who contributed their ideas, this is excellent work
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #633 on: June 4, 2005, 11:57:49 AM »
For the bio-explosives: This would mean a scattered troupe (like Harlequins) would suffer as much as packed-up guardsmen. That does not seem right.
There is no powerglove in the list. I am guessing you are referring to the Stormglove, and I can look over the wording on it.

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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #634 on: June 4, 2005, 12:02:41 PM »
A powerglove was the Eldar Equivalent of a powerfist back in 2nd ed. If I remember correctly, is functioned as a powerfist, but didn't have any negative side effect. (or am I mixing up things here?).

Alot of the Harlequin models are equipped with Power GLoves though. Should we add it as wargear? An Eldar powerglove would work at S 6 only.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #635 on: June 4, 2005, 01:22:43 PM »
Just a few thoughts, having read all 32 pages of the thread *pant, pant*

If you're still having troubles with bio-explosive ammo, I offer what might be considered a less complex solution.  Rather than using a template to represent the explosion, assign d3 extra hits to the unit, which wound on a roll of 4+ and ignore armor.  Due to the majority toughness/armor save rules, this change should not affect the overall impact of the weapon (ie, it'll be really hard to have the weakest model in the squad die and take out a terminator in the explosion).  It's a little easier than trying to figure out who died to the explosive shot, I think.  If you think it's necessary, add a line that states that each surviving model in the squad can only be hint once by this effect, even if there are less survivors than extra hits.

Second... am I reading the powerglove entry correctly?  It seems to me that a model with a powerglove attacking a multi-wound creature with, say, T6, automatically kills the model if it wounds it once, since it can only wound on a 6+.  Perhaps this should be changed to trigger on the to-hit roll (rather like rending) so something like "If a stormglove attack hits on a roll of 6, a successful wound will kill the opposing model outright, regardless of wounds (the model is allowed an invunerable save as normal)"

Anyways.  Other than that, congratulations to Rasmus and all who contributed their ideas, this is excellent work

I salute you!  Not many people have the self-control to read through all the posts.

I finally realized what's been bugging me--Nightshade has a powerglove!  It is from this that the issue stems I believe.

EDIT: "End-hand--this weapon acts as a powerglove".  This needs to be fixed I believe.  In fact I think I brought it up before ;)
« Last Edit: June 4, 2005, 02:39:39 PM by InfinityCircuit »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #636 on: June 4, 2005, 02:19:41 PM »
The Harlequins did have powergloves back in RT, (however, not in 2nd ed) and it was not in the leaked beta or the CJ-beta. I don't think adding them will do a lot for the Harlequins, but if you are interested in trying it out, then please feel free, and do let us know how it goes.

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Offline subrace

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #637 on: June 4, 2005, 09:25:17 PM »
The new special rules for flip belts and "hit and fade" i think are ridiculous.  The point of the Harlequins is to walk into a squad and annihilate them, then walk out, not letting the other player even have a chance to fight back.  Thats why they have so many attacks and thats why they have no armour save in CC.  Sure its challenging, but Harlies arent SMs.

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #638 on: June 4, 2005, 10:05:14 PM »
subrace: The whole point to the whole revision is to make the harlequins a balanced force.  right now the harlequin force is broken.  if any army can just walk in there and kill everything with no resistance then what fun would that be?  even the fluff of harlequins says they dodge attacks left and right.  if you learn a way of fighting you're not just going to learn how to hit but you're also going to learn how to defend.  That's what being a good fighter is, learn your enemy, learn to attack, and learn to defend.  10 SMs might survive your 40 attacks, then what?  your whole 250+ of a squad is toast probably without the revision.  (happened to me more than once)  If you dont like the revision you dont have to play it.  suggestions would be nice on how to make the revision better for thats what we've been doing here. 
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Offline JaedenKaal

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #639 on: June 4, 2005, 10:39:59 PM »
Er, stormglove, yeah.  My bad.  And yeah, what exactly would Nightshade's powerglove do?

Yes, I realise that the d3 hits thing is unaffected by squad density... I was just saying it would be an easier method than assigning a blast template.  Perhaps not in the 4th ed rules... so nevermind, I suppose.
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